Thelema And Mormonism.

[Nathair/|\]

"Magic" and "occult" seems alright (though it should be noted that Crowley first came up with that definition of "magick".

My teachers got it from Fortune, and at the time I was under the impression that she originated it. I've since seen attribution to Eliphas Levi, one of the founders of the Golden Dawn, of which both Crowley and Fortune were members. I need to do more research to see how accurate it is.

I don't like the definitions of "sorcery" and "black magic", though. In my experience, they tend to be used to refer to other people's magic that one doesn't like for whatever reason (if not being used tongue in cheek). If you want to talk magical ethics, then talk magical ethics, but don't just label someone else's as bad. Also keep in mind that someone might be writing in code (Crowley did a lot), and it doesn't necessarily mean what it looks like on the surface.

I need a definition of Sorcery that deals with D&C 76:103 and 63:17. Somebody once suggested to me that it might mean those who pretended to magical powers they didn't have in order to defraud or deceive.

[Tacenda]

This is the grimoire that Joseph Smith allegedly used to make his Jupiter talisman.

http://en.wikipedia....he_Magus_(book)

I remember reading some apologists out there denying Joseph had a Jupiter Talisman on his body when he died. Interesting, is it common belief that he owned one? Also, not directed to you per se, but I think Mormonism is so aligned with Masonry that it's the one thing that scares me or holds me back from full belief.

[Calm]

I remember reading some apologists out there denying Joseph had a Jupiter Talisman on his body when he died. Interesting, is it common belief that he owned one?

It was not listed in the list of articles he had with him at the time of his death AND no one heard of it until the son (grandson?) of the man Emma married (Bidamon) tried to sell it. If it was a treasured heirloom of Joseph's that Emma had possession of, why wouldn't she give it to her own son? No one else ever mentioned it either, which seems contrary to Charles Bidamon that Emma displayed it often as Joseph's to visitors.

I would say it is not common belief he owned one since no one really had heard about it until the 1970s, I believe, and I don't believe the knowledge of it has spread much among LDS though it can be popular among LDS critics who prefer to promote the idea that Joseph was heavily involved in the occult. http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Occultism_and_magic/Jupiter_talisman

Edited May 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[Ntrw]

Well, when I can reconcile Mormonism with physical anthropology and evolutionary biology, I might agree with you more.

No comprendo, what do you mean?

[Ntrw]

Call it whatever you want. I still recommend everyone attend this "black mass" at least once in their lives to see for themselves how beautiful it is.

Or just watch the DVD when it comes out...

http://www.indiegogo...s-video-project

Some lodge did a video of one on youtube. The way I see it, Thelema combines the sacraments of Christianity and Wetern Esoterica, with the doctrinal worldview of view of Hinduism/Buddhism. So the Thelemite and the Buddhist are seeking the same thing but the Thelemite uses ceremonial magic as his praxis, while the Buddhist uses meditation.

The reason Crowley used Satanic symbolism such as 666, Baphomet and calling himself the Beast is twofold: 1)he was a religion's Andy Kaufman, an internet troll before the internet, 2)he was seeking an end to duality(something Lehi championed btw), so you embrace your bogeyman in order to free yourself from them.

If Crowley had been born in India, no one would have blinked because what he expounded is kinda like a Western Tantra.

ps.

I know Thelemites meditate as well. This is just a super oversimplification. I also know that the HGA isn't the same as Nirvana but you catch my drift.

[Ntrw]

From the third chapter of Crowley's Book of the Law:

Sounds really, really compatible to Mormonism to me...

MM, I'm not a supporter of O.T.O, in anyway shape or form. But you really have to give others the benefit of the doubt and read their scriptures as they read them, just as we want people to do the same with us.

[Tsuzuki]

My teachers got it from Fortune, and at the time I was under the impression that she originated it. I've since seen attribution to Eliphas Levi, one of the founders of the Golden Dawn, of which both Crowley and Fortune were members. I need to do more research to see how accurate it is.

Though Eliphas Levi probably thought of it in those terms, Crowley was the first to articulate that definition.

I need a definition of Sorcery that deals with D&C 76:103 and 63:17. Somebody once suggested to me that it might mean those who pretended to magical powers they didn't have in order to defraud or deceive.

If you want something to fit there, I would suggest Eliphas Levi's definition in "The Great Secret", though I should stress that most of the modern occult writers that I can think of use "sorcerer" as synonymous with magician without any moralistic baggage, if they use it at all.

"The power of the mage and the sorcerer is one and the same; with this difference, the mage clings to the tree when he cuts off the branch while the sorcerer hangs from the very branch he is trying to cut off."

Again, if you want to talk magical ethics, then do it with words that everyone can agree upon. Eliphas Levi was struggling with the same issue you are, and while I think he did a really good job with that definition, it's not universal.

[Tsuzuki]

I remember reading some apologists out there denying Joseph had a Jupiter Talisman on his body when he died. Interesting, is it common belief that he owned one?

I think the Jupiter talisman is still uncertain, but the Smith family as a whole had more magical artifacts that are still in the possession of their descendents. I'd have to go digging, but it wasn't just the Jupiter talisman.

Also, not directed to you per se, but I think Mormonism is so aligned with Masonry that it's the one thing that scares me or holds me back from full belief.

Why is that? Right now, that occult connection is probably the only part of my belief still left. I think it's an absolutely wonderful thing.

[Nathair/|\]

Though Eliphas Levi probably thought of it in those terms, Crowley was the first to articulate that definition.

If you want something to fit there, I would suggest Eliphas Levi's definition in "The Great Secret", though I should stress that most of the modern occult writers that I can think of use "sorcerer" as synonymous with magician without any moralistic baggage, if they use it at all.

"The power of the mage and the sorcerer is one and the same; with this difference, the mage clings to the tree when he cuts off the branch while the sorcerer hangs from the very branch he is trying to cut off."

Again, if you want to talk magical ethics, then do it with words that everyone can agree upon. Eliphas Levi was struggling with the same issue you are, and while I think he did a really good job with that definition, it's not universal.

Thanks. That's a big part of what I am looking for. In part, I'm trying to explain why, in light of the aforementioned scriptures, a faithful Latter-Day Saint can be a mage.

[Tsuzuki]

No comprendo, what do you mean?

Not really relevant to the thread, but suffice it to say that I'm a skeptic on par with Sterling McMurrin, who is a personal hero of mine.

https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V17N01_20.pdf

However, my current inactivity has more to do with LGBT politics than Thelema, occultism, or even my own skepticism. I once told a friend that I would come back to church when it let polyamorous lesbian trans-women have the priesthood. Not likely to happen any time soon, though, I imagine.

[Tsuzuki]

Some lodge did a video of one on youtube.

Yeah, I've seen that before, but it's of such poor quality I wasn't going to mention it now that a professional quality video is coming out soon. I guess I probably should, though.

[media=]

[Tsuzuki]

[media=]

[Nathair/|\]

I remember reading some apologists out there denying Joseph had a Jupiter Talisman on his body when he died. Interesting, is it common belief that he owned one?

I'm skeptical of any claims of Joseph being involved in anything more than New England Folk Magic. It wouldn't bother me, but I haven't seen any evidence and I don't think he had the free time.

Also, not directed to you per se, but I think Mormonism is so aligned with Masonry that it's the one thing that scares me or holds me back from full belief.

Could you explain the problem? Is there some reason you feel Masonry is unethical or immoral, or is it just that Evangelical critics say it's a problem?

[Tsuzuki]

And here's a series of Gnostic Mass training videos.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Tsuzuki

[Tsuzuki]

[Tsuzuki]

[Tsuzuki]

Of relevance:

http://iao131.com/20...-of-thelemites/

In an ideal state, without jargon, without theology, what defines a Thelemite’s perspective? Is it possible to describe the essential characteristics of living as a Thelemite without the use of any technical terms or implying any kind of metaphysical system? Can it be described in a way that a 10-year-old could easily understand?

Here is one attempt, written from the perspective of someone asserting principles or truths about themselves as Thelemites.

11 PRINCIPLES of THELEMITES

with no technical jargon

1. I know that exploring and expressing myself is my right and my purpose.

2. I know that every single other being also has the same right & purpose to explore and express their natures.

3. I accept all people no matter what they look like or believe, and I accept all moments no matter if they are good or bad.

4. I am always growing, always searching & striving ever to more in all things.

5. I look at the difficult things in life as my teachers that help me grow, and I embrace them.

6. I never forget that being alive and being aware is a mysterious blessing that always deserves gratitude and joy.

7. I enjoy the beauty in everyone and everything else, and I help to bring more beauty to the world.

8. I seek truth: I think for myself, I am honest with myself and others, and I question myself and others.

9. I explore and develop my creativity in all aspects of life, and I help others to do the same.

10. I am connected with everything in the universe, so I live in harmony with other people, animals, plants, and all other things on the earth and in the whole cosmos.

11. I laugh: I enjoy all parts of the world, and I do not take myself too seriously.

[mfbukowski]

Not really relevant to the thread, but suffice it to say that I'm a skeptic on par with Sterling McMurrin, who is a personal hero of mine.

https://dialoguejour...e_V17N01_20.pdf

I like McMurrin- he was a philosophical Pragmatist at heart, but he did not take it far enough.

He didn't understand the full potential of the immanent God and relating that concept to humanism. When God is a man, humanism is theology. That is what he did not "get".

He was hung up on taking all doctrine literally- as if the ideas presented could only be seen as scientific "facts" instead of also symbolic paradigms which could be interpreted otherwise as well. He didn't understand that the "Fall" of Adam could be seen as the personal fall from innocence we all make, therefore he found evolution to be in conflict with the existence of Adam, where nothing could be farther from the truth.

When seen as a symbolic paradigm rather than a scientific fact, the whole story of Eden, for example, takes on another dimension, which, sadly, he missed.

You could see it that way as well if you wanted.

Edited May 12, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Tsuzuki]

When God is a man, humanism is theology.

And that's exactly why I'm a Thelemite.

[mfbukowski]

And that's exactly why I'm a Thelemite.

That's exactly why I am a Mormon.

[Tsuzuki]

That's exactly why I am a Mormon.

And that's exactly why they're compatible.

[MormonMason]

This is the grimoire that Joseph Smith allegedly used to make his Jupiter talisman.

http://en.wikipedia....he_Magus_(book)

His alleged "Jupiter Talisman." All we have is the word of Bidamon that it belonged to Joseph. Nothing like such was mentioned on the list of the contents of his pockets recorded on his death.

[MormonMason]

MM, I'm not a supporter of O.T.O, in anyway shape or form. But you really have to give others the benefit of the doubt and read their scriptures as they read them, just as we want people to do the same with us.

While I generally agree with such a philosophy, Crowley himself decried that sort of thinking with respect to his book. He himself stated that only he, and he alone, had the right to interpret the meaning of passages in the book, not his followers. They can do that now in their new variant of OTO but it was not always so. Today's OTO is a little different animal in some of its parts than was the case in the old ways. But the root still is the same.

[Tsuzuki]

His alleged "Jupiter Talisman." All we have is the word of Bidamon that it belonged to Joseph. Nothing like such was mentioned on the list of the contents of his pockets recorded on his death.

Yes. I did say alleged. It's still a decent grimoire.

[Tsuzuki]

While I generally agree with such a philosophy, Crowley himself decried that sort of thinking with respect to his book. He himself stated that only he, and he alone, had the right to interpret the meaning of passages in the book, not his followers. They can do that now in their new variant of OTO but it was not always so. Today's OTO is a little different animal in some of its parts than was the case in the old ways. But the root still is the same.

Evidence, please?