Thelema And Mormonism.

[Calm]

I agree.

I kind of thought you would.

[Nathair/|\]

I had a friend who lived in our ward boundaries who did horoscopes for a living and who ended up being baptized. At the time our bishop was one of the most conservative, black and white, rigid adults that I knew (I was in my early 20s...I have since come across less flexible people). It was a testimony to me how the mantle of the calling can expand one as the bishop told my friend that as long as he didn't use horoscopes to predict the future, but rather as a way to gain personal insight, as a way to trigger exploring of oneself (as opposed to providing answers and telling a person to do this or that), iow function as a therapist rather than a fortune teller, that such a career was acceptable for a LDS. The bishop's response helped me to look at nontraditional faiths in a more expanded way. Not that I wasn't already a nontraditionalist in many ways having been brought up on Jung and Campbell and Swedenborg, but it encouraged me to consider other beliefs even more deeply as possible sources of light and insight for my own.

I knew there had to be a reason you were so awesome.

[Tsuzuki]

The thing is, O.T.O and A.A are about magick, not just philosophy. I know not all Thelemites practice magick and that magick in Thelema is kinda like a Western form of tantric meditation etc.

The O.T.O. is a purely fraternal order on par with Freemasonry, while the A∴A∴ is the magical order. While a lot of people do both (or take a non-A∴A∴ route to studying magic/k), the O.T.O. is strictly social in nature.

Also, how can one be a sorcerer and a Latter Day Saint? Yes, I know about Joseph's money digging days; life is complicated and rarely black and white. Anyway, what ever quasi-masonic order you have joined, I suggest you review what you're learning and practicing with your Bishop, just to make sure it's kosher.

I did back when I was still active, before the whole Prop 8 thing. Back then, the director of the LDS Institute by the local community college even let the pagan/occult club I was VP (and later president) of keep its occult library there. So, while my current involvement in the LGBT/polyamory community probably isn't kosher, my magical practice is. Edited May 8, 2013 by Tsuzuki

[Tsuzuki]

Here's a really good 1-hour podcast on the O.T.O.

http://margerrisons.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/051-peaches-geldof-joins-weird-sex-cult.html

[Nathair/|\]

The O.T.O. is a purely fraternal order on par with Freemasonry, while the A∴A∴ is the magical order. While a lot of people do both (or take a non-A∴A∴ route to studying magic/k), the O.T.O. is strictly social in nature.

I did back when I was still active, before the whole Prop 8 thing. Back then, the director of the LDS Institute by the local community college even let the pagan/occult club I was VP (and later president) of keep its occult library there. So, while my current involvement in the LGBT/polyamory community probably isn't kosher, my magical practice is.

Do you think you could take a look at my definitions in my post 95? I'd like your feedback before I revise them to be more clear and more informative.

[Ntrw]

The O.T.O. is a purely fraternal order on par with Freemasonry, while the A∴A∴ is the magical order. While a lot of people do both (or take a non-A∴A∴ route to studying magic/k), the O.T.O. is strictly social in nature.

I did back when I was still active, before the whole Prop 8 thing. Back then, the director of the LDS Institute by the local community college even let the pagan/occult club I was VP (and later president) of keep its occult library there. So, while my current involvement in the LGBT/polyamory community probably isn't kosher, my magical practice is.

Interesting. I could see that. Thanks for the clarification. How do you deal with the Gnostic Mass and it's naked priestess on the altar?

Ps. Thanks for being so cool about my questions. I don't mean to be condescending.

[Bill Hamblin]

The O.T.O. is a purely fraternal order on par with Freemasonry, while the A∴A∴ is the magical order. While a lot of people do both (or take a non-A∴A∴ route to studying magic/k), the O.T.O. is strictly social in nature.

The OTO is a religion, overlapping with the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica and participating in their Gnostic Mass. It is also overtly anti-Christian, with the new Aeon of Horus replacing the old Aeon of Christianity. It also neopagan, overtly worshiping pagan deities.

Read through the Gnostic Mass (Liber XV, written by Crowley) to get a sense of what is going on in the movement.

http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0015.html

Even a cursory reading reveals it is in part a "Black Mass" in the sense of a parody/rewriting of the Catholic Mass, as well as using other earlier "Black Mass" books such as the Sworn Book of [Pope] Honorius, along with the ritual nudity and sexuality of earlier rites.

[inquiringmind]

Deleted.

Edited May 10, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Tsuzuki]

Do you think you could take a look at my definitions in my post 95? I'd like your feedback before I revise them to be more clear and more informative.

"Magic" and "occult" seems alright (though it should be noted that Crowley first came up with that definition of "magick". I don't like the definitions of "sorcery" and "black magic", though. In my experience, they tend to be used to refer to other people's magic that one doesn't like for whatever reason (if not being used tongue in cheek). If you want to talk magical ethics, then talk magical ethics, but don't just label someone else's as bad. Also keep in mind that someone might be writing in code (Crowley did a lot), and it doesn't necessarily mean what it looks like on the surface.

[Tsuzuki]

Interesting. I could see that. Thanks for the clarification. How do you deal with the Gnostic Mass and it's naked priestess on the altar?

With respect, of course. As should anyone in attendance.

Ps. Thanks for being so cool about my questions. I don't mean to be condescending.

Actually, you've been one of the more intelligence voices in this thread. I like how you made the link between the HGA and one's pre-mortal self, and I've been meditating on that.

[Tsuzuki]

The OTO is a religion, overlapping with the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica and participating in their Gnostic Mass. It is also overtly anti-Christian, with the new Aeon of Horus replacing the old Aeon of Christianity. It also neopagan, overtly worshiping pagan deities.

There are no belief requirements for being in the O.T.O., E.G.C., or A∴A∴. I personally don't believe in the concept of Aeons, as taught by Crowley, though it is analogous to the Mormon concept of Dispensations, and Mormonism in some ways strikes me as a Thelemic flavor of Christianity. Also, Crowley spoke of the Aeon of Osiris, not the Aeon of Christianity. As I've pointed out above, it would seem that Crowley saw Joseph Smith in high regard, and it could be argued that Mormonism is more Horus-Christian than Osiris-Christian.

Read through the Gnostic Mass (Liber XV, written by Crowley) to get a sense of what is going on in the movement.

http://lib.oto-usa.o.../liber0015.html

Even a cursory reading reveals it is in part a "Black Mass" in the sense of a parody/rewriting of the Catholic Mass, as well as using other earlier "Black Mass" books such as the Sworn Book of [Pope] Honorius, along with the ritual nudity and sexuality of earlier rites.

I attend the Gnostic Mass regularly, and have served as an officer on a couple occasions (the child in black). I might serve as deacon in the immediate future. By your logic, the LDS Sacrament is also a "Black Mass."

For what it's worth, I recently took my active LDS parents to a class on the symbolism of the Gnostic Mass, and afterward my dad remarked that Mormonism was closer to Thelema than to other Christian churches.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Tsuzuki

[mfbukowski]

Not that I wasn't already a nontraditionalist in many ways having been brought up on Jung and Campbell and Swedenborg, but it encouraged me to consider other beliefs even more deeply as possible sources of light and insight for my own.

Aha! The reason for our affinity is revealed!

[Tsuzuki]

Hopefully soon, you'll be able to see what this "Black Mass" is all about without having to leave your living room.

http://www.indiegogo...s-video-project

Aleister Crowley’s Liber XV

Gnostic Mass DVD

WHY SUPPORT THIS PROJECT?

Anahata Chapter of the O.T.O. Rose Croix, with the sanction of the United States Grand Lodge, O.T.O., is proud to sponsor the making of a professionally produced, high quality video of Liber XV, The Gnostic Mass.

When completed, this video of Liber XV, The Gnostic Mass, will serve multiple purposes. It will be a US Grand Lodge-sanctioned representation of the central ritual of the O.T.O. for reference and teaching purposes all over the United States.

It will serve as an historic document of the celebration of the Gnostic Mass in the early years of the 21st Century and, it will serve as a worthy introduction and provide continuing access to the Magick and mystery of the O.T.O., even in areas of the country and the world where there is not a local O.T.O. body immediately accessible.

We believe the staging and content of this video presentation will be of great interest and value to both O.T.O. Initiates as well as those interested in Magick, Thelema, and Western Esotericism, and we invite all interested people to support the completion of this project by contributing through this Indiegogo page!

[bjw]

The O.T.O. is a purely fraternal order on par with Freemasonry, while the A∴A∴ is the magical order. While a lot of people do both (or take a non-A∴A∴ route to studying magic/k), the O.T.O. is strictly social in nature.

In addition to belonging to 4 masonic orders, a couple years ago I joined the Traditional Martinist Order and Rosicrucians. These groups have exercises you have to do to develop your natural abilities, but I believe they are also considered "fraternal orders" and not religions. I read what an earlier poster quoted from the CHI about "occult affiliation." However, from the sound of what it was talking about, it seems to equate "Satan worship" with "occult affiliation." From what I've seen of Martinists, Rosicrucians, and even Masons, there is no Satan worship going on, only fraternities.

Also, when you compare the excersises with what early Mormons did I don't think they would be considered any more "magical" than how the early LDS church was. I've heard people compare the TMO to the OTO, that there were some similarities in that both were forms of "Western Occultism," but I don't know much about it. Maybe the CHI is condemning "Goatia" but not "Theurgy," as practiced by esoteric Christians. IMHO, even the LDS temple rites could be considered theurgy in a sense.

I've actually gained a bigger respect for Mormonism since studying these things, because it proves to me more and more that Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about and wasn't some con-man as the anti-Mormons like to claim.

[Ntrw]

With respect, of course. As should anyone in attendance.

Actually, you've been one of the more intelligence voices in this thread. I like how you made the link between the HGA and one's pre-mortal self, and I've been meditating on that.

I think that the two concepts are analogous; which is why I think if the HGA is your goal then Mormonism has the best "magical" technique for it;) This is also why I think Crowley asked the right question but Joseph got the right answers;)

[Bill Hamblin]

I attend the Gnostic Mass regularly, and have served as an officer on a couple occasions (the child in black). I might serve as deacon in the immediate future. By your logic, the LDS Sacrament is also a "Black Mass."

Well, now you're being silly. The LDS sacrament isn't a mass at all.

At any rate, here's how I would define a "black mass."

1- It explicitly claims to be a mass

2- It imitates/parodies (at least to some degree) the Catholic mass

3- It invokes gods other than the Christian Trinity

4- It is heretical (by Catholic standards)

5- It is magical in intent and purpose

6- It often (but not necessarily) involves sexuality

Now clearly Crowley's Gnostic Mass fits all six of these criteria, right? So in why should we not describe Crowley's Gnostic Mass as a black mass?

I should emphasize that a black mass does not necessarily involve magical cursing (though it can). Also, although the satanic mass is a form of black mass (that is, where Satan is invoked instead of Christ), not every black mass need be satanic. Other deities (or demons) can be invoked instead of Satan.

To me, Crowley's Gnostic Mass is a classic example of a black mass.

[Bill Hamblin]

There are no belief requirements for being in the O.T.O., E.G.C., or A∴A∴.

I find this a rather dubious claim. EGC has a prophet, Crowley, a scripture (the Book of the Law), a dogma ("do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law," etc.), baptism, a mass, etc. Now it's true that one can join OTO as an initiate, but the reality is that OTO, EGC and AA are all intimately intertwined, precisely as Crowley intended that they be.

[bjw]

If I'm not mistaken, I thought the "black mass" originated with the Satanic Bible in the 1960s, long after Crowley wrote his rituals.

[MormonMason]

If I'm not mistaken, I thought the "black mass" originated with the Satanic Bible in the 1960s, long after Crowley wrote his rituals.

You are mistaking Anton LaVey's crap with what has been written and passed down in handwritten copies of old grimoires of dark magick since the Middle Ages. There is quite a difference. You have to hold one of these in your hands and read to see what I mean. I have no intention ever of holding another in my hands so long as I live, or even of associating with such groups of people so as to be able to consult an old grimoire, so you will have to look elsewhere for quotes and examples. I highly recommend that you steer clear of such materials and people. No sense polluting your mind with such trash.

[Tsuzuki]

Maybe the CHI is condemning "Goatia" but not "Theurgy," as practiced by esoteric Christians.

Legend has it that the Goetia is how Solomon built the first temple. Regardless, it's used today to built the temple of one's own psyche by redeeming one's own inner demons. My guess is that the writers of the CHI just don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the occult.

Lon Milo DuQuette had a workshop on the Goetia in Oakland, CA today, which I was unfortunately unable to attend, but I got to go to it as a panel discussion at PantheaCon earlier this year.

https://www.facebook...44588462372440/

Love Your Demons, Love Yourself!

We all have them: call them Shadows, Complexes, or Things We Try To Avoid But Can’t Really…

Whether we think they are “out there” or “in here” we all have to deal with our demons, or they will deal with us!

If we can’t love the parts that live in the shadows, we can’t love ourselves. This experiential workshop offers insight into the care and feeding of our demons. We will discuss Goetia, self-examination, and other magickal practices. Together, we’ll face our demons and learn what happens when the power bound up in them is freed and integrated with the rest of our soul.

Esteemed authors and Magick Workers Lon Milo Duquette & T. Thorn Coyle will be our guides on the journey. Join us.

Saturday May 11th, 2013

Bay Area Thelemic Temple, Oakland California

[Tsuzuki]

I think that the two concepts are analogous; which is why I think if the HGA is your goal then Mormonism has the best "magical" technique for it;) This is also why I think Crowley asked the right question but Joseph got the right answers;)

Well, when I can reconcile Mormonism with physical anthropology and evolutionary biology, I might agree with you more. Until then, I'll continue to draw inspiration, even if I'm no more a believer than Sterling McMurrin.

[Tsuzuki]

Well, now you're being silly. The LDS sacrament isn't a mass at all.

At any rate, here's how I would define a "black mass."

1- It explicitly claims to be a mass

2- It imitates/parodies (at least to some degree) the Catholic mass

3- It invokes gods other than the Christian Trinity

4- It is heretical (by Catholic standards)

5- It is magical in intent and purpose

6- It often (but not necessarily) involves sexuality

Now clearly Crowley's Gnostic Mass fits all six of these criteria, right? So in why should we not describe Crowley's Gnostic Mass as a black mass?

I should emphasize that a black mass does not necessarily involve magical cursing (though it can). Also, although the satanic mass is a form of black mass (that is, where Satan is invoked instead of Christ), not every black mass need be satanic. Other deities (or demons) can be invoked instead of Satan.

To me, Crowley's Gnostic Mass is a classic example of a black mass.

Call it whatever you want. I still recommend everyone attend this "black mass" at least once in their lives to see for themselves how beautiful it is.

Or just watch the DVD when it comes out...

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gnostic-mass-video-project

[Tsuzuki]

You are mistaking Anton LaVey's crap with what has been written and passed down in handwritten copies of old grimoires of dark magick since the Middle Ages. There is quite a difference. You have to hold one of these in your hands and read to see what I mean. I have no intention ever of holding another in my hands so long as I live, or even of associating with such groups of people so as to be able to consult an old grimoire, so you will have to look elsewhere for quotes and examples. I highly recommend that you steer clear of such materials and people. No sense polluting your mind with such trash.

This is the grimoire that Joseph Smith allegedly used to make his Jupiter talisman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magus_%28book%29

[Tsuzuki]

Also:

Top 10 Most Significant Historical Grimoire

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-significant-historical-grimoire.php

[Calm]

To me, Crowley's Gnostic Mass is a classic example of a black mass.

I am curious as on what is your definition/description of a black mass based? Knowing you, it is not just pulled out of the air or your opinion.