Thelema And Mormonism.

[inquiringmind]

@JKimball: Wow, I haven't seen that happen before. How did you do that? I'm sure you have no idea either...

Do what?

[Tsuzuki]

Thanks for posting about this, Tsuzuki. I sometimes wonder what Thelemites and Luciferians believe but I've never known any that I could ask. Are you free to discuss all their teachings, or are there some things that you promise not to teach to outsiders?

Luciferianism is more of a nebulous descriptive term and without a unifying philosophy, so anything I say about it might not apply to anyone else (Wikipedia is your best bet there), but Thelema is a specific tradition, and Thelemites are very approachable. The central ritual, the Gnostic Mass, is also open to the public. Like Mormonism, the O.T.O. also has secret initiation rituals that are rooted in Freemasonry and help illustrate the core ideas of Thelema, but the core ideas themselves are freely discussed (how else do you think outsiders become insiders). The public Gnostic Mass also encapsulates everything. If you're really interested, here is a map of all the official O.T.O. bodies (lodge, oasis, camp) in the US.

http://oto-usa.org/w...ress/locations/

I highly recommend going to a Gnostic Mass at least once, or if there aren't any local bodies near you, there's an officially produced DVD of the Mass coming out this year. The Priest (David Shoemaker) and Priestess (Anna Tsu) in the Mass are the former and current heads of the lodge I was initiated at, and they are awesome. (And I'm not just saying that because they're friends of mine.)

http://www.indiegogo...s-video-project

David Shoemaker also has a Thelemic podcast, Speech in the Silence, which is very informative.

http://speechinthesilence.com/

There's also a website aimed at younger Thelemites with interviews, comedy, etc.

http://2c-thelema.com/

Here's one particular interview of another personal friend of mine.

http://2c-thelema.co...r-fieri-facias/

I'm curious what you mean by compatible. I have only learned a very little about it, but I did have the impression that there are some distinct similarities that mormon theology shares with these mystery religions that it does not share with mainstream Christianity. But as far as the doctrine goes, I would have to say they are very much incompatible as mormon doctrine relies heavily, if not entirely on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which for all I know, is completely ignored by Thelema and Luciferianism. Comparing the two gives me the sense that we are back at the grand pre-mortal council again, debating whether or not we need a savior.

What I mean is that Mormons can be Thelemites. Though Christ is not an element of Thelema, it is not anti-Christian either, and there are already members of Christian religions (including Mormonism) in the O.T.O. It's inclusive like that.

As for Luciferianism, "Lucifer" is one term for Christ (or possibly the Holy Spirit) in the Latin New Testament, but that's off-topic for Thelema. Though Thelema could be considered a Luciferian-type philosophy, Lucifer isn't a figure in Thelema.

I think the Crowley quote is very interesting and has some power to it. It actually reminds me of this scripture:

Abraham 3:17 - "...there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it."

But the mormon perspective on that concept very importantly includes obedience, as the Widstoe quote you provided includes. Also, the quote from Elder Neal A. Maxwell likewise emphasizes the importance of will combined with obedience to God: "The submission of one's will, is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God's altar."

So while both doctrines seem to agree that using our agency is fundamentally important, I'm guessing Thelema would not agree that we should submit our will, and is therefore incompatible. What do you think?

Submitting one's will is not the same as surrendering it, and the voluntarily obedient are still completely free. You do not give up your agency in order to obtain exaltation. That is what I think as a Thelemite and as a philosophical Mormon.

[Tsuzuki]

Here is a choice quote from the interview with my friend.

http://2c-thelema.co...r-fieri-facias/

"Thelema stands out to me because of its celebration of the individual, its celebration of the individual’s connection to divinity, and how the individual can have first-hand experiences in relation to that divinity how they may according to who they are as unique people. It doesn’t place arbitrary restrictions on people – every restriction in Thelema is necessary to the individual. Thelema doesn’t mean that restriction is wrong; discipline is very necessary, but – like I said – they’re not arbitrary. Every individual needs a different code, a different set of rules, a different formula of boundaries that is unique to them, which wouldn’t match for someone else. Thelema is a philosophy and a religion that allows for that.

"

- Soror Fieri Facias

[Questing Beast]

Are you suggesting that a dissociative psychopathology is your choice?

Without looking up either of those words to assure myself that they mean what I think they mean, the answer is no. I do not plan to dissociate myself eventually from the Church, but I also don't plan on staying. I am taking life one day at a time, actually one moment at a time. There is too much to ponder in the moment to allow for much reflection on the future. I like the master in Kung Fu Panda when he says words to the effect of, "The past is gone, the future is unwritten, but this moment is a gift, that is why it is called the present." I think it is fruitless to overly plan the future, but the "curse" of our 'satiable curiosity (aka imagination) continually dwells on the future, trying to peer into it and foresee the pratfalls and pitfalls, and possibly even see how we can make everything great, if we just plan correctly for what is coming. Then we swing one-eighty and look on the past, the recent failures/disappointments, the more distant parade of similar dissatisfying memories, and even the still open wounds. And the present is disregarded because it is never exactly where/what we want to be. That is the most prevalent psychopathology of our species. But I believe it is solely the myopia of mortality. Our immortal selves do not dwell on past or future at all....

[Questing Beast]

Do what?

JKimballs entire post was in column form beneath the "New Member" icon on the left side, and the posting window was a blank. I thought that by the time I came back "here" that it would be fixed, and it is....

Edited April 29, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Questing Beast]

delete

Edited April 29, 2013 by Questing Beast

[pmccombs1]

As for Luciferianism, "Lucifer" is one term for Christ (or possibly the Holy Spirit) in the Latin New Testament, but that's off-topic for Thelema. Though Thelema could be considered a Luciferian-type philosophy, Lucifer isn't a figure in Thelema.

So, when you refer to the Lucifer of Luciferianism, you aren't taking about that crazy fellow, the author of all sin, His Base Lowness Beelzebub the Devil? You know, Satan?

[Tsuzuki]

So, when you refer to the Lucifer of Luciferianism, you aren't taking about that crazy fellow, the author of all sin, His Base Lowness Beelzebub the Devil? You know, Satan?

More like the "day star" in the Latin version of 2 Peter 1:19, which is where the term originates. But again, this is off topic for Thelema.

[mfbukowski]

More like the "day star" in the Latin version of 2 Peter 1:19, which is where the term originates. But again, this is off topic for Thelema.

Blessed Bovine, dude- good to see you!

It's been a while!

[CASteinman]

I do identify as a Luciferian, and have since long before being a Thelemite.

Not compatible with the Church of Jesus Christ.

If it's part of someone's True Will to be chaste, then they should be chaste.

Not compatible with membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

[CASteinman]

So, when you refer to the Lucifer of Luciferianism, you aren't taking about that crazy fellow, the author of all sin, His Base Lowness Beelzebub the Devil? You know, Satan?

In my opinion, satan -- perdition, has lost the Title of Lucifer. However, because of the lies of satan and the way things are perceived most people believe that Lucifer is still his title and thus the name-title is reasonably held in contempt. This is a case where the name is a symbol and the symbol is important for instructing mankind.

Edited April 29, 2013 by CASteinman

[pmccombs1]

More like the "day star" in the Latin version of 2 Peter 1:19, which is where the term originates. But again, this is off topic for Thelema.

Well, OK--Thelema. I looked it up on that inerrant source of all truth, Wikipedia. It sounds awfully curious. Your assertion that it's compatible with Mormonism is... bold. Maybe audacious. You presented a case by pointing out the LDS doctrine of free will, or agency as we call it. I liked the idea you shared from Thelema about finding purpose and so forth, and I agreed with it. I think Mormonism could get along with that in some quarters. Other Mormons would certainly say that, really, it's about the obedience. Yes, they will admit, we have free agency. But it's not something to fool around with. No! I've heard, over the pulpit, the idea put forth that the answers have already been found. We know how to avoid those things that develop character: just follow the rules. Step in line. You can be saved without needing to develop one ounce of character along the way, if you play your cards right. But you have to put handcuffs on that free agency; that's the one important choice. Automatic obedience is key.

Of course, I could say that Catholicism is compatible with Mormonsim too. Look, they both have Jesus! But that isn't good enough, is it? It turns out that, while there are definitely some similarities, there are also places where the two systems come into conflict.

It's intriguing, though, the idea that a Mormon might adopt a secondary system that encompasses questions of cosmology and morality. I have personally wished to adopt various elements of Catholicism among other things. How does that sound, a Mormon Catholic? What if I were baptized into many churches rather than just one? Well, no Church would hear of it--it's apostasy, such split allegiances. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and God and Goddess and gods and God. They are all jealous of each other.

Ah, but what if this new thing weren't a Church, per se? A philosophy, perhaps? Said to be not so much incompatible with the thing one accepts by baptism?

I understand the appeal of that. Once I thought about becoming one of those Neo-druids even while staying Mormon. What is the appeal, may I ask, of adopting two things at once? Why Mormonism and Thelema? Why is Mormonism alone insufficient?

[Tsuzuki]

I do identify as a Luciferian, and have since long before being a Thelemite.

Not compatible with the Church of Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:19.

If it's part of someone's True Will to be chaste, then they should be chaste.

Not compatible with membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

I'm pretty sure that chastity is compatible with membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Though to be honest, I have been inactive and out of the loop for a while, so that might have changed.

[CASteinman]

2 Peter 1:19.

Irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure that chastity is compatible with membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Though to be honest, I have been inactive and out of the loop for a while, so that might have changed.

It is. What is not compatible with membership is the notion that obedience to it depends upon how you feel about it. It is, simply, mandatory. Such doctrine as you describe could not be taught in the Church as it is apostasy.

Yes, you have a choice about whether you will obey things -- but key failures (and violation of the law of chastity can count as one of those) will have you out of the Membership.

What you are basically saying is that people may choose to not live the gospel. Which is true. And we believe that. But we do not believe that choosing to violate covenants is compatible with membership.

Edited April 29, 2013 by CASteinman

[Tsuzuki]

Well, OK--Thelema. I looked it up on that inerrant source of all truth, Wikipedia. It sounds awfully curious. Your assertion that it's compatible with Mormonism is... bold. Maybe audacious. You presented a case by pointing out the LDS doctrine of free will, or agency as we call it. I liked the idea you shared from Thelema about finding purpose and so forth, and I agreed with it. I think Mormonism could get along with that in some quarters. Other Mormons would certainly say that, really, it's about the obedience. Yes, they will admit, we have free agency. But it's not something to fool around with. No! I've heard, over the pulpit, the idea put forth that the answers have already been found. We know how to avoid those things that develop character: just follow the rules. Step in line. You can be saved without needing to develop one ounce of character along the way, if you play your cards right. But you have to put handcuffs on that free agency; that's the one important choice. Automatic obedience is key.

"Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer."

- Brigham Young, "The Privileges and Blessings of the Gospel" (Journal of Discourses 1:312)

It would seem that not only are Mormonism and Thelema compatible, but only Thelemites will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

Of course, I could say that Catholicism is compatible with Mormonsim too. Look, they both have Jesus! But that isn't good enough, is it? It turns out that, while there are definitely some similarities, there are also places where the two systems come into conflict.

It's intriguing, though, the idea that a Mormon might adopt a secondary system that encompasses questions of cosmology and morality. I have personally wished to adopt various elements of Catholicism among other things. How does that sound, a Mormon Catholic? What if I were baptized into many churches rather than just one? Well, no Church would hear of it--it's apostasy, such split allegiances. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and God and Goddess and gods and God. They are all jealous of each other.

I'm already ahead of you there. Me being a Mormon Catholic occultist was a thing that developed and was chronicled over many threads here years ago. Unfortunately, I think most of those threads have been deleted. In a nutshell, I met with lots of superficial resistance, but nothing of any substance, so I went ahead with it. Since then, I've also explored atheism, and now Thelema and O.T.O. membership.

This is essentially what I am.

http://webspace.webr...y/paradigm.html

Ah, but what if this new thing weren't a Church, per se? A philosophy, perhaps? Said to be not so much incompatible with the thing one accepts by baptism?

It's primarily a philosophy, and the O.T.O. is a quasi-masonic social organization. There is a "church" arm of the O.T.O, which is responsible for the Gnostic Mass, but even with that there are no dogmas anyone has to believe.

I understand the appeal of that. Once I thought about becoming one of those Neo-druids even while staying Mormon. What is the appeal, may I ask, of adopting two things at once? Why Mormonism and Thelema? Why is Mormonism alone insufficient?

"We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons."

- Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316

"It was the occupation of Jesus Christ and his Apostles to propagate the Gospel of salvation and the principles of eternal life to the world, and it is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their elder brother, being at their head,) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, to mechanism of every kind, to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, and bring it to Zion.

The people upon this earth have a great many errors, and they have also a great many truths. This statement is not only true of the nations termed civilized-those who profess to worship the true God, but is equally applicable to pagans of all countries, for in their religious rights and ceremonies may be found a great many truths which we will also gather home to Zion. All truth is for the salvation of the children of men-for their benefit and learning-for their furtherance in the principles of divine knowledge; and divine knowledge is any matter of fact-truth; and all truth pertains to divinity."

- Brigham Young, "Intelligence, Etc." (Journal of Discourses 7:283-284)

"Although I was going to say I am not a Universalist, but I am, and I am also a Presbyterian, and a Roman Catholic, and a Methodist, in short, I believe in every true principle that is imbibed by any person or sect, and reject the false. If there is any truth in heaven, earth, or hell, I want to embrace it, I care not what shape it comes in to me, who brings it, or who believes in it, whether it is popular or unpopular. Truth, eternal truth, I wish to float in and enjoy."

- John Taylor, "Motives and Feelings of the Saints, etc." (Journal of Discourses 1:155)

[CASteinman]

It would seem that not only are Mormonism and Thelema compatible, but only Thelemites will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

Only by totally twisting the teaching of the True Gospel can you even begin to imagine this.

[Tsuzuki]

Irrelevant.

Very relevent, but also off topic. We can explore it elsewhere (though I feel like I've already beaten it to death years ago here).

It is. What is not compatible with membership is the notion that obedience to it depends upon how you feel about it. It is, simply, mandatory. Such doctrine could not be taught in the Church as it is apostasy.

Yes, you have a choice about whether you will obey things -- but key failures (and violation of the law of chastity can count as one of those) will have you out of the Membership.

What you are basically saying is that people may choose to not live the gospel. Which is true. And we believe that. But we do not believe that choosing to violate covenants is compatible with membership.

These are all things to take into account, but we are still all fundamentally free. That's my point.

[CASteinman]

Very relevent, but also off topic.

Irrelevant to the topic then.

These are all things to take into account, but we are still all fundamentally free. That's my point.

Being "free" is not the same thing with being compatible with Mormonism. satan is free for a time.

[Tsuzuki]

Irrelevant to the topic then.

I wasn't the one who brought it up. inquiringmind jumped on my user rank.

Being "free" is not the same thing with being compatible with Mormonism. satan is free for a time.

You are also free.

[Calm]

Blessed Bovine, dude- good to see you!

It's been a while!

It gets a bit slow around here with only Nathair to hold up the nontraditional approach.

[mfbukowski]

It gets a bit slow around here with only Nathair to hold up the nontraditional approach.

Very true indeed!

[Tsuzuki]

I basically came back to fix an error I'd made five years ago now that I have more knowledge. Not sure how much I'll be posting what with being busy with school, but I might keep an eye on anything interesting.

[mfbukowski]

Mormons believe that obedience to laws which one as taken on oneself actually creates freedom. Following the Word of Wisdom for example, keeps one free from addiction- following traffic laws keeps one free from the chaos which would ensue if everyone drove on the sidewalk or whatever side of the street one felt like.

This concept is called "self-determination".

One is free because one obeys laws which one adopts for himself. I personally believe that this is why the God of Mormonism follows the laws of nature. I think he is the author of those laws, and as such, would he not follow the laws he has created for himself, he would cease to be God, because of his inconsistency.

[mfbukowski]

I basically came back to fix an error I'd made five years ago now that I have more knowledge. Not sure how much I'll be posting what with being busy with school, but I might keep an eye on anything interesting.

Well if you are anything like me, and change your views as much as I do, you will make enough "mistakes" to keep you coming back forever!

Edited April 29, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Tsuzuki]

Mormons believe that obedience to laws which one as taken on oneself actually creates freedom.

...

One is free because one obeys laws which one adopts for himself.

This is basically Thelema. The only difference is that in Thelema there are no one-size-fits-all rules.