Thelema And Mormonism.

[CASteinman]

I wasn't the one who brought it up. inquiringmind jumped on my user rank.

I have no idea what that means. It was your post I was responding to.

You are also free.

Yes, I am and while Mormonism is not compatible with me, hopefully I will increasingly be compatible with Mormonism.

[CASteinman]

This is basically Thelema. The only difference is that in Thelema there are no one-size-fits-all rules.

That is not the only difference between Thelema and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Or... it is such a huge huge difference that it basically means that this one difference is sufficient to show that are not at all alike in any significant detail

Edited April 29, 2013 by CASteinman

[Tsuzuki]

That is not the only difference between Thelema and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Or... it is such a huge huge difference that it basically means that this one difference is sufficient to show that are not at all alike in detail

True. The names are also spelled differently.

[pmccombs1]

Mormons believe that obedience to laws which one as taken on oneself actually creates freedom. Following the Word of Wisdom for example, keeps one free from addiction- following traffic laws keeps one free from the chaos which would ensue if everyone drove on the sidewalk or whatever side of the street one felt like.

This concept is called "self-determination".

I prefer to think of it as "positive liberty," or freedom of as opposed to merely freedom from.

The Word of Wisdom, while truly keeping "the weakest" one free from the ills of addiction (negative liberty), also keeps one from a host of wonderful things identified by the likes of G.K. Chesterton, who is known to have extolled the virtues of home, hearth, fire, and drink. It is rather the freedom of that keeps me attentive to the Word of Wisdom; the freedom to fulfill ones potential within a certain worldview. It is apparent that to be requires, not only freedom from bondage and subjection, but discipline, purpose, and civic virtue. This is positive liberty which, alas, is rarely given a second thought.

Once negative liberty has been achieved, what then does the Will actually do? What constraints and rules does it impose upon itself in order to grow and develop according to its desire?

[CASteinman]

I prefer to think of it as "positive liberty," or freedom of as opposed to merely freedom from.

The Word of Wisdom, while truly keeping "the weakest" one free from the ills of addiction (negative liberty), also keeps one from a host of wonderful things identified by the likes of G.K. Chesterton, who is known to have extolled the virtues of home, hearth, fire, and drink. It is rather the freedom of that keeps me attentive to the Word of Wisdom; the freedom to fulfill ones potential within a certain worldview. It is apparent that to be requires, not only freedom from bondage and subjection, but discipline, purpose, and civic virtue. This is positive liberty which, alas, is rarely given a second thought.

Once negative liberty has been achieved, what then does the Will actually do? What constraints and rules does it impose upon itself in order to grow and develop according to its desire?

Your post makes me think of a scripture that I believe Marion G. Romney used to quote from time to time:

"Abide ye in the liberty wherewith ye are made free; entangle not yourselves in sin, but let your hands be clean, until the Lord comes. "

[Ntrw]

Thelema denies the efficacy of a vicarious sacrifice for sin; Crowley thought the idea of Christ's atonement to be a cowardly doctrine. Also, as you advance in the higher ranks of Thelema, I don't see how one can perform sex magick WITHOUT breaking the law of chastity. So in practice and theory Mormonism and Thelema are not compatible any more than Mormonism and Evangelicalism or Mormonism and Islam.

That being said, there are elements of thelema which are true. I like Crowley's ideas on the true will and holy guardian angel, that and Liber Al Vel Legis has some beautiful little gems of truth that can be gathered in, like all philosophical or scientific truths. My respects to the genius of Frater Perdurabo but I don't think membership in the O.T.O or A.A. are compatible with life as a temple worthy LDS.

I recommend you read Aleister Crowley and The Western Esoteric Tradition and Frater Perdurabo by Robert Kazynski, two great treatments on a great mind.

[Ntrw]

Haven't been here in a while, but back in 2008 I commented that Aleister Crowley's brand of Thelema was incompatible with Mormonism.

Since then, I've studied Thelema more in depth, discovered that much of what I'd believed about it had been misinformation, and more recently joined the Ordo Templi Orientis. I would definitely identify as a Thelemite now, and I would also say that Mormonism and Thelema are compatible (as would other Mormons I've since met in the O.T.O.).

This quote by John A. Widtsoe does a pretty good job of summing up Thelema, though it's referring to Mormonism.

"The distinguishing characteristic of a person is the possession of will, the power to accept or reject, to move or to stand still, to obey or to disobey. From the very beginning the being now known as man possessed a will, and by the operation of his will has reached his present condition. Above all other things, man is a will. If that be so, the training and use of the will is man's first concern."

- Elder John A. Widtsoe, "Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

And here is an official explanation of Aleister Crowley's iconic phrase, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

"According to Thelemic doctrine, the expression of Divine Law in the Æon of Horus is 'Do what thou wilt'. This 'Law of Thelema', as it is called, is not to be interpreted as a license to indulge every passing whim, but rather as the divine mandate to discover one’s True Will or true purpose in life, and to accomplish it; leaving others to do the same in their own unique ways. The 'acceptance' of the Law of Thelema is what defines a Thelemite; and the discovery and accomplishment of the True Will is the fundamental concern of all Thelemites."

-

http://oto-usa.org/w...elema/theology/

In a nutshell, Thelema takes the Mormon concept of agency as its central tenent.

The "true will" has nothing to do with doing what you want but rather doing what you were placed here to do. It's about putting aptitude over interest. The Following quotes are from Magic In Theory and Practice.

Every man and every woman has a course, depending partly on the self, and partly on the environment which is natural and necessary for each.

Anyone who is forced from his own course, either through not understanding himself, or through external opposition, comes into conflict with the order of the Universe, and suffers accordingly.

A man may think it is his duty to act in a certain way, through having made a fancy picture of himself, instead of investigating his actual nature. For example, a woman may make herself miserable for life by thinking that she prefers love to social consideration, or vice versa. One woman may stay with an unsympathetic husband when she would really be happy in an attic with a lover, while another may fool herself into a romantic elopement when her only pleasures are those of presiding over fashionable functions. Again, a boy's instinct may tell him to go to sea, while his parents insist on his becoming a doctor. In such a case he will be both unsuccessful and unhappy in medicine.

The sincere student will discover, behind the symbolic technicalities of this book, a practical method of making himself a Magician. The processes described will enable him to discriminate between what he actually is, and what he has fondly imagined himself to be. He must behold his soul in all its awful nakedness, he must not fear to look on that appalling actuality. He must discard the gaudy garments with which his shame has screened him; he must accept the fact that nothing can make him anything but what he is. He may lie to himself, drug himself, hide himself; but he is always there. Magick will teach him that his mind is playing him traitor. It is as if a man were told that tailors' fashion-plates were the canon of human beauty, so that he tried to make himself formless and featureless like them, and shuddered with horror at the idea of Holbein making a portrait of him. Magick will show him the beauty and majesty of the self which he has tried to suppress and disguise

.

I can accept these ideas when viewed through the lens of Joseph's revelations. Our true will is the will and mind we had before coming to this mud ball of a planet. the "Holy Guardian Angel" as Crowley taught is non other than our deepest truest self, in a Mormon sense our pre-mortal self. But the tools for unlocking our divine character, our true will, is the atonement of Jesus Christ, repentance, making and keeping covenants, and living a Celestial law not ceremonial magic, experimenting with everything we dislike in an effort to destroy duality.

Again, I respect Crowley, he asked the right questions but the Prophet Joseph Smith gave us the right answers.

[Tsuzuki]

Thelema denies the efficacy of a vicarious sacrifice for sin; Crowley thought the idea of Christ's atonement to be a cowardly doctrine.

And there are Thelemites who agree with that, of recent note being Sam Webster.

http://www.patheos.com/Pagan/Why-You-Cant-Worship-Sam-Webster-03-20-2013.html

However, there are many who disagree, and who work with Christianity as part of their occult practice. Right now, this is a very hot topic in the pagan/occult community, Thelema included.

Also, as you advance in the higher ranks of Thelema, I don't see how one can perform sex magick WITHOUT breaking the law of chastity.

So perform it within the confines of marriage.

That being said, there are elements of thelema which are true. I like Crowley's ideas on the true will and holy guardian angel, that and Liber Al Vel Legis has some beautiful little gems of truth that can be gathered in, like all philosophical or scientific truths. My respects to the genius of Frater Perdurabo but I don't think membership in the O.T.O or A.A. are compatible with life as a temple worthy LDS.

So far my O.T.O membership is looking pretty compatible, though admittedly I'm just a First Degree right now. I plan on doing A.A. when I can devote more time to it, and I'll keep people updated.

I recommend you read Aleister Crowley and The Western Esoteric Tradition and Frater Perdurabo by Robert Kazynski, two great treatments on a great mind.

Agreed (you mean Richard Kaczynski, right?). Lon Milo DuQuette is also an awesome author, and a Facebook friend of mine.

[Nathair/|\]

Tsuzuki, we could use your perspective on my Pagans and Mormons Dialogue Board on Facebook an ye are interested.

[Nathair/|\]

[mfbukowski]

I prefer to think of it as "positive liberty," or freedom of as opposed to merely freedom from.

The Word of Wisdom, while truly keeping "the weakest" one free from the ills of addiction (negative liberty), also keeps one from a host of wonderful things identified by the likes of G.K. Chesterton, who is known to have extolled the virtues of home, hearth, fire, and drink. It is rather the freedom of that keeps me attentive to the Word of Wisdom; the freedom to fulfill ones potential within a certain worldview. It is apparent that to be requires, not only freedom from bondage and subjection, but discipline, purpose, and civic virtue. This is positive liberty which, alas, is rarely given a second thought.

Once negative liberty has been achieved, what then does the Will actually do? What constraints and rules does it impose upon itself in order to grow and develop according to its desire?

Yes I know Isaiah Berlin too! http://www.wiso.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/wiso_vwl/johannes/Ankuendigungen/Berlin_twoconceptsofliberty.pdf

I think that we are naturally constrained- even in Negative Liberty- to those principles which allow the human race to grow and prosper.

One can believe that we "get to do whatever we want" but the reality is that those who do, might well end up in jail or die early. Certainly if a society adopted the maxim "Kill whomever you wish, just for fun" that society would not survive long.

Call it evolution or call it natural law, it all winds up about the same. Everyone likes a peaceful life and quiet enjoyment of their circumstances, and those who violate that will not prosper.

There is a reason that some version of the Golden Rule is found in nearly all cultures. It allows the human race to survive and prosper.

[Tsuzuki]

This may be of interest.

The Beast and the Prophet: Aleister Crowley's Fascination with Joseph Smith

by Massimo Introvigne

(From the book, Aleister Crowley and Western Esotericism)

http://www.oxfordsch...3075-chapter-11

"This chapter takes a look at Crowley's novel

Moonchild

, where he referenced several modern occultists and friends, one of them being Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. It shows that this reference to Smith was not accidental, and that this reference reveals Crowley's intense fascination with Smith. It then tries to explain Crowley's fascination with Smith, and discusses some extrinsic similarities between Smith and Crowley. This chapter also studies how the findings are confirmed by the attitude of new modern magical movements towards Smith."

By the way, if you have any problems with that link, try this one. The publisher's site allows you to read the whole chapter, and even save a PDF, but it seems to be finicky, so I uploaded the one I saved to scribd.

http://www.scribd.co...rhd9nhefetj428f

[Tsuzuki]

"Interestingly enough, people in Cefalù called Crowley 'the Mormon' and the Abbey's group 'the Mormon community,' apparently because Crowley, having more than one 'wife,' was easily confused with portrayals of Mormons as polygamists in old popular literature. According to one source, Crowley did not dislike the appellative, and he did not explain to the good citizens of Cefalù that he was, in fact, not a Mormon."

- Massimo Introvigne, "The Beast and the Prophet"

[volgadon]

This may be of interest.

The Beast and the Prophet: Aleister Crowley's Fascination with Joseph Smith

by Massimo Introvigne

(From the book, Aleister Crowley and Western Esotericism)

http://www.oxfordsch...3075-chapter-11

"This chapter takes a look at Crowley's novel

Moonchild

, where he referenced several modern occultists and friends, one of them being Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. It shows that this reference to Smith was not accidental, and that this reference reveals Crowley's intense fascination with Smith. It then tries to explain Crowley's fascination with Smith, and discusses some extrinsic similarities between Smith and Crowley. This chapter also studies how the findings are confirmed by the attitude of new modern magical movements towards Smith."

By the way, if you have any problems with that link, try this one. The publisher's site allows you to read the whole chapter, and even save a PDF, but it seems to be finicky, so I uploaded the one I saved to scribd.

http://www.scribd.co...rhd9nhefetj428f

Chopped liver from post #16 says thank you.

[Tsuzuki]

Chopped liver from post #16 says thank you.

lol

I totally missed that. ^^;;

[volgadon]

I appreciate you posting the whole thing, as I could only read a limited preview through google books.

[Tsuzuki]

I appreciate you posting the whole thing, as I could only read a limited preview through google books.

I randomly found it last night while researching Thelema in general, and I only posted it here as an afterthought. XD The whole book is now on my wish list.

[Tsuzuki]

By the way, here's a critique of that article by a Thelemite.

http://library.hrmtc...-esotericism-2/

"In another of the collection’s older papers, Massimo Introvigne offers a few startling errors about Crowley (e.g. claims that Crowley hated his father, that Leah Hirsig was his first Scarlet Woman), but none of them have much bearing on his fascinating central topic of Crowley’s admiration for Joseph Smith and Mormonism. Of the various papers in the volume, this is one of those which touches most directly on a larger theoretical issue of scholarship, in exploring the distinction between religion and magic in the inspiring and organizing of new sects. Sadly, Introvigne simply

assumes

the “magic” character (by his own definitions) of the revelation of

Liber AL vel Legis

, without any actual inquiry into or discussion of the Cairo working. In this chapter, Crowley ultimately serves as a hostile witness for the defense in an effort to exonerate Mormonism against accusations of having a magical basis. Not that Crowley was hostile to (his own notion of) Mormonism, but he would have wanted to see it

convicted

of magick!"

[DarkScythe]

interesting. I am not against Mormonism having a Magick element to it.

[Maidservant]

Abraham 3:17 - "...there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it."

This was the first thing that came to my mind too when I read the OP .

[Tsuzuki]

I should also mention that outside of the O.T.O (the social order) and the A∴A∴ (the magickal instructional order), there are also other Thelemic organizations that were founded after Crowley's death, such as the College of Thelema, Temple of Thelema, and Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn (and possibly others that I'm unaware of), that tend to be a mix of social and instructional. There are also various guilds within the O.T.O., such as the Psychology Guild and newly formed Art Guild. Many Thelemites belong to multiple organizations. Theoretically, you could start your own Thelemic organization. Maybe something for Thelemites interested in Joseph Smith and Mormonism. All you would need is enough interested people.

[MormonMason]

From the third chapter of Crowley's Book of the Law:

47. This book shall be translated into all tongues: but always with the original in the writing of the Beast; for in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are mysteries that no Beast shall divine. Let him not seek to try: but one cometh after him, whence I say not, who shall discover the Key of it all. Then this line drawn is a key: then this circle squared in its failure is a key also. And Abrahadabra. It shall be his child & that strangely. Let him not seek after this; for thereby alone can he fall from it.

48. Now this mystery of the letters is done, and I want to go on to the holier place.

49. I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men.

50. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!

51. With my Hawk’s head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.

52. I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.

53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

54. Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your crapulous creeds.

55. Let Mary inviolate be torn upon wheels: for her sake let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!

56. Also for beauty’s sake and love’s!

57. Despise also all cowards; professional soldiers who dare not fight, but play; all fools despise!

58. But the keen and the proud, the royal and the lofty; ye are brothers!

59. As brothers fight ye!

60. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

Sounds really, really compatible to Mormonism to me...

[Tsuzuki]

From the third chapter of Crowley's Book of the Law:

Sounds really, really compatible to Mormonism to me...

Seeing as how it's up to each person to interpret the Book of the Law for him/herself, and there are already Christian Thelemites (and Buddhist, which is also listed there), how you choose to interpret this passage from the Book of the Law is irrelevant. You really cannot take the Book of the Law at face value.

[MormonMason]

Seeing as how it's up to each person to interpret the Book of the Law for him/herself, and there are already Christian Thelemites (and Buddhist, which is also listed there), how you choose to interpret this passage from the Book of the Law is irrelevant. You really cannot take the Book of the Law at face value.

Some of those words and sentences come right out of the rituals of the Black Mass. Just saying...

And, one cannot take the Book of the Law at face value because it is incoherent babbling at several places. Crowley was under the influence of drugs when he wrote it. Sexual magick, by the way, is incompatible with Mormonism--even if you do it with your wife as a means of trying to keep covenants and keep the law of chastity.

[Tsuzuki]

Some of those words and sentences come right out of the rituals of the Black Mass. Just saying...

Can you elaborate? If by "Black Mass" you mean the Gnostic Mass of the O.T.O., that ritual was designed by Crowley after the Book of the Law was written, and of course has sentences from it. Why wouldn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_XV,_The_Gnostic_Mass

And, one cannot take the Book of the Law at face value because it is incoherent babbling at several places.

It is incoherent babbling in more than several places. In many ways it functions as a Rorschach test for the person reading it.

Crowley was under the influence of drugs when he wrote it.

Source? Not that it matters. Many people are under the influence of the drug caffeine when they write things.

Sexual magick, by the way, is incompatible with Mormonism--even if you do it with your wife as a means of trying to keep covenants and keep the law of chastity.

What is the issue aside from the law of chastity?