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Looking For The Cross In All The Wrong Places


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Posted

Only critics don't want to see. Mormonism is born out of surrounding Christianity, both of its strengths and weaknesses. Mormons are hardly alone in refusing to put forward a physical symbol of the cross, or to discourage members from wearing such....

Posted

The physical sign of the cross was not used at all in the early New Testament church to identify Christians after Christ died. In fact, it was not used as a Christian symbol until sometime during the 4th or 5th century. See

http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txn/cross.htm

Does that mean for the first 400 years after Christ, people who called themselves Christians were not really Christians?

Interesting scripture from the Book of Mormon:

"For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell." (3 Nep 12:30)

Posted

No comments?

I would never be among the observers who make any hubbub about the tendency among Mormons to deliberately or unconsciously discontinue practices that have been originally established by Catholics. It makes sense to me when non-Catholics do non-Catholic things in non-Catholic ways.

I am not disturbed by it, but I actually find it much more problematic to non-Catholic points of view when non-Catholics seem, without good reason, to adopt Catholic practices and teachings, traditions and customs.

Posted

I have seen the cross in furnishing or architecture in the Temples from time to time (I have visited a few). Most of the time, these are not well visible. But the Temple in Rome apparently will have one on the outside door, facing the world.

As an understated symbol, I don't mind it at all. I do believe that overuse causes it to lose something.

Posted

No comments?

The place of ultimate LDS reverence for the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of Christ is in the temple. He who hath ear, let him hear; I can say no more.

Posted (edited)

I would say that there is a difference between Mormon acceptance of the literary symbol of the cross, and the material symbol of the cross.

I agree with the opening post that there is a presence of the cross in the hymns, LDS scripture, etc. The cross just doesn't seem to have much of a place in Mormon material culture (outside of artistic depictions). At least, not much since the mid 20th century. Thanks for your response Bernard.

Edited by Mike Reed
Posted

Hymns are not cannon. LDS hymnals use many hymns written by nonMormons. I don't know who wrote the hymns you quoted?

LDS teachings have been strongly anti-cross for many years. I don't know when or how this developed.

Posted (edited)

LDS teachings have been strongly anti-cross for many years. I don't know when or how this developed.

In light of powerfully graphic scriptural references like the following, I have never been able to understand why we Latter-day Saints have allowed our critics to have a field day of opposition against us by appearing to devalue the words of the prophets in own Bible. After all, the Bible is one of our standard works, don't you know...

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Galatians 6:14)

So rather than taking a step back to ask ourselves if our aversion to the cross as a symbol of the atoning sacrifice of Christ has any validity, in light of the Bible (the one Book we have in common with all of Christendom), we just blithely and in willful blindness pressed forward without ever stopping to ask ourselves why the cross is such an important literary symbol of the atonement in the Bible. We've created serious public relations problems with our non-LDS brethren where non ever needed to exist, if we'd only done our homework.

In my opinion, there's really no excuse for this ignorance, especially in light of the immense importance crucufixion symbolism plays in the higher ordinances of the gospel. This is a perfect example of being blind at noonday. And so the anti's gleefully dance around the bonfire of our own blind ignorance, when even our own scriptures validate these same teachings of the Bible...

"35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross." (D&C 138)

And again...

"13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works." (3 Nephi 27)

What happened on the cross of Christ is of infinite and eternal importance. Let's wake up on this one and close the breach.

Edited by teddyaware
Posted

I think it is quite obvious from the OP that Mormons certainly have great reverence for Jesus' sacrifice for us on the cross.

Yet too many Mormons, in my opinion, have a hard time appreciating the cross as a symbol. A lot of Mormons like to criticize other Christian faiths for using the instrument of Christ's death as a symbol. i often hear the argument that we focus on the living Christ while others focus on his death. It is mind-boggling.to me how Mormons who sing these sacrament hymns every week fail to appreciate and understand the symbol of the cross.

Posted

I think it is quite obvious from the OP that Mormons certainly have great reverence for Jesus' sacrifice for us on the cross.

Yet too many Mormons, in my opinion, have a hard time appreciating the cross as a symbol. A lot of Mormons like to criticize other Christian faiths for using the instrument of Christ's death as a symbol. i often hear the argument that we focus on the living Christ while others focus on his death. It is mind-boggling.to me how Mormons who sing these sacrament hymns every week fail to appreciate and understand the symbol of the cross.

The suffering and dying Christ is every bit as important as the rising Christ. If Christ had not first suffered and atoned, there would be no resurrection to glory for him or anyone else. It's by his suffering that he paid the price for our sins. It's by his suffering that "he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth."

(D& C 88)

Without his suffering, by descending below all things, he could not have comprehended all things experientially, and become our Light of Truth as a resurrected being.

Posted

Hymns are not cannon. LDS hymnals use many hymns written by nonMormons. I don't know who wrote the hymns you quoted?

LDS teachings have been strongly anti-cross for many years. I don't know when or how this developed.

Funny thing, I have been in the church for almost 60 years. In that time I can't remember any sermon from the pulpit telling us not to revere the cross. Perhaps I just missed them.
Posted (edited)

There was a thread on this a few months ago. An entire book was recently published.

Here is the book on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.../dp/1934901350/

Here is a podcast interview that I did on FMH recently (I believe Bernard's opening post is in reaction to this episode):

http://www.feministm...boos-the-cross/

Here is a review of the book, written by Dr. Boyd J. Peterson of UVU and BYU:

http://forums.mormon...ersen.aspx#2532

Here are a couple old newspaper articles on my research, one from the SL Tribune, and second from Deseret News' Mormon Times:

http://wildernesschr.../The-Cross.html

http://www.deseretne...oss.html?pg=all

Edited by Mike Reed
Posted

The place of ultimate LDS reverence for the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of Christ is in the temple. He who hath ear, let him hear; I can say no more.

That, of course, is the most profound of all LDS symbolism.

Posted

I would say that there is a difference between Mormon acceptance of the literary symbol of the cross, and the material symbol of the cross.

I agree with the opening post that there is a presence of the cross in the hymns, LDS scripture, etc. The cross just doesn't seem to have much of a place in Mormon material culture (outside of artistic depictions). At least, not much since the mid 20th century. Thanks for your response Bernard.

I think it goes beyond a literary acceptance of the cross. It is the centerpiece of the two most sacred assemblages in the LDS church, ie., sacrament meeting and the temple.

Posted (edited)

I think it goes beyond a literary acceptance of the cross. It is the centerpiece of the two most sacred assemblages in the LDS church, ie., sacrament meeting and the temple.

I don't think symbols related to the cross (or related to what happened to Jesus on the cross) are the same thing as a cross symbol. A symbol of a different object of Jesus' crucifixion and death, ok. But, althoug related, that's a different symbol.

These are both the peace signs, but they are not the same symbol:

zafer1.gifPeace-Sign-Sticker-(5150).jpg

Besides this point, however... my book is concerned with tracing the development of Mormon attitudes toward the material and visual symbol of the cross. It isn't concerned with literary symbols, material depictions, etc. The taboo exists with regards to the visual/material symbol of the cross.

Edited by Mike Reed
Posted

The place of ultimate LDS reverence for the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of Christ is in the temple. He who hath ear, let him hear; I can say no more.

Maybe it's me but I don't get alot of Jesus worship in the temple.
Posted

Hymns are not cannon. LDS hymnals use many hymns written by nonMormons. I don't know who wrote the hymns you quoted?

LDS teachings have been strongly anti-cross for many years. I don't know when or how this developed.

It doesn't matter who wrote the hymns. The text of the hymns is carefully reviewed, and anything that is not acceptable is removed. My parents were instrumental in removing a verse from the hymn For the Strength of the Hills. The hymn book is published by the Corporation of the First Presidency. We are encouraged to memorize them and incorporate them in all meetings of the church including the temple.

Only three sacrament hymns use text by non-LDS writers.

Hymn 192, Isaac Watts. This hymn was in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835.

He Died! The Great Redeemer Died

Hymn 193, Charles H. Gabriel. This hymn has been in the hymnbook at least since 1948.

I Stand All Amazed

Hymn 194, Cecil Frances Alexander. This hymn has been in the hymnbook since at least 1927.

There is a Green Hill Far Away

LDS teachings cannot be considered "anti-cross."

Posted (edited)

What happened on the cross of Christ is of infinite and eternal importance. Let's wake up on this one and close the breach.

It should be said for the LDS (as well as all other Christians), the cross is to be borne in the heart.

Edited by Bernard Gui
Posted (edited)

I don't think symbols related to the cross (or related to what happened to Jesus on the cross) are the same thing as a cross symbol.

Besides this point, however... my book is concerned with tracing the development of Mormon attitudes toward the material and visual symbol of the cross. It isn't concerned with literary symbols, material depictions, etc. The taboo exists with regards to the visual/material symbol of the cross.

I don't agree that it is a taboo because any Mormon can wear a cross, put a crucifix on a wall in the home, or hang one from a rear-view mirror if they wish. One could say those prophets who were instrumental in creating that "taboo" were prescient of the crass commercialization of the most sacred literary and material symbol of Christianity. Since we don't publicly display the cross, we don't have to deal with the issues involved with desecration of the holy symbol. Wearing cross bling doesn't make one a Christian, any more than me wearing an Army Strong t-shirt makes me a soldier. There is a vast difference between a simple silver cross worn as a pendant and this:

em12152011048.jpg?t=1324007603

Edited by Bernard Gui
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