Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted April 23, 2013 Popular Post Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) Looking for the Cross in All the Wrong PlacesWe may not know, we cannot tell, what pains he had to bear,But we believe it was for us he hung and suffered there. Hymn 194Some observers fault the supposed LDS neglect of the Christian symbol of the cross because of its intentional absence from Mormon church buildings, clothing, jewelry, art, and iconography.(1) Since most Mormons do not openly use the cross or crucifix, one might mistakenly conclude they do not revere the cross. On the contrary, Mormons celebrate the cross with deep reverence and devotion in their weekly sacrament meetings.Elder Dallin Oaks explained the significance of this meeting.The ordinance of the sacrament makes the sacrament meeting the most sacred and important meeting in the Church. It is the only Sabbath meeting the entire family can attend together. Its content in addition to the sacrament should always be planned and presented to focus our attention on the Atonement and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.”(2)The paramount reason for attending sacrament meeting is to partake of the sacrament. There are three parts to the sacrament presentation: singing the hymn by the congregation, blessing the bread and water by the priests, and passing the emblems to the congregation by the deacons. It is during the sacramental hymn that the members of the church express their feelings for Jesus and the Atonement. This could be a good place to look for the cross in the LDS church.There are twenty-eight “sacrament hymns” (hymns intended to precede the ordinance of the sacrament) in the LDS hymnbook.(3) The texts may include references to the personal meaning of the Atonement, the sufferings of Jesus, the events that took place, and the gratitude of the Saints for His sacrifice. Nine hymns use the words cross or crucified. For example, hymn 184:Upon the cross of Calvary they crucified our LordAnd sealed with blood the sacrifice that sanctified his word.Upon the cross he meekly died for all mankind to seeThat death unlocks the passageway into eternity.Upon the cross our Savior died, but, dying, brought new birthThrough resurrection's miracle to all the sons of earth.Three use the word “tree” instead of “cross,” as in hymn 185:Rev'rently and meekly now, let thy head most humbly bow.Think of me, thou ransomed one; think what I for thee have done.With my blood that dripped like rain, sweat in agony of pain,With my body on the tree I have ransomed even thee.In this bread now blest for thee, emblem of my body see;In this water or this wine, emblem of my blood divine.Oh, remember what was done that the sinner might be won.On the cross of Calvary I have suffered death for thee.“Calvary” or “hill” (the location of the crucifixion) are mentioned in thirteen hymns. For example, hymn 171:With humble heart, I bow my head and think of thee, O Savior, Lord.I take the water and the bread to show remembrance of thy word.Help me remember, I implore, thou gav'st thy life on Calvary,That I might live forevermore, and grow, dear Lord, to be like thee.Hymns that do not explicitly mention cross, crucifixion, tree, hill, or Calvary refer to the sufferings endured by Jesus, such as hymn 187:God loved us, so he sent his Son, Christ Jesus, the atoning One,To show us by the path he trod the one and only way to God.He came as man, though Son of God, and bowed himself beneath the rod.He died in holy innocence, a broken law to recompenseOh, love effulgent, love divine! What debt of gratitude is mine,That in his off'ring I have part and hold a place within his heart.This sacrament doth represent his blood and body for me spent.Partaking now is deed for word that I remember him, my Lord.And hymn 191:Behold the great Redeemer die, a broken law to satisfy.He dies a sacrifice for sin, that man may live and glory win.While guilty men his pains deride, they pierce his hands and feet and side;And with insulting scoffs and scorns, they crown his head with plaited thorns.Although in agony he hung, no murm'ring word escaped his tongue.His high commission to fulfill, he magnified his Father's will. Some sacrament hymns, such as hymn 193, express gratitude to Jesus for his suffering on behalf of the sinner:I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me, Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.I tremble to know that for me he was crucified, that for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died.I marvel that he would descend from his throne divine to rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine,That he should extend his great love unto such as I, sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify.I think of his hands pierced and bleeding to pay the debt! Such mercy, such love and devotion can I forget?No, no, I will praise and adore at the mercy seat, until at the glorified throne I kneel at his feet.Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me enough to die for me!Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!In 3 Nephi 18: 1, Jesus gave these instructions which are followed every week in every Mormon church:“And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.”For many Mormons, these are the most sacred of all their hymns. During the quiet reverence of the sacrament service, they sing of Jesus, His flesh and blood, His suffering and Atonement, the cross. During the passing of the sacrament they reflect on these things, silently repent and ask forgiveness, and pledge to always remember Him. This is where the cross is found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.(1) http://www.sltrib.co...ith/ci_12256269. Also, many anti-Mormon web sites use this issue to deny Mormons a place in Christianity.(2) http://www.lds.org/g...rament?lang=eng(3) Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1985, hymns #169-197. Edited April 23, 2013 by Bernard Gui 5
Questing Beast Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 Only critics don't want to see. Mormonism is born out of surrounding Christianity, both of its strengths and weaknesses. Mormons are hardly alone in refusing to put forward a physical symbol of the cross, or to discourage members from wearing such....
Bernard Gui Posted April 23, 2013 Author Posted April 23, 2013 Exactly. The cross is born in the heart, not on the ears.
JAHS Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 The physical sign of the cross was not used at all in the early New Testament church to identify Christians after Christ died. In fact, it was not used as a Christian symbol until sometime during the 4th or 5th century. Seehttp://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txn/cross.htmDoes that mean for the first 400 years after Christ, people who called themselves Christians were not really Christians?Interesting scripture from the Book of Mormon:"For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell." (3 Nep 12:30)
3DOP Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 No comments?I would never be among the observers who make any hubbub about the tendency among Mormons to deliberately or unconsciously discontinue practices that have been originally established by Catholics. It makes sense to me when non-Catholics do non-Catholic things in non-Catholic ways.I am not disturbed by it, but I actually find it much more problematic to non-Catholic points of view when non-Catholics seem, without good reason, to adopt Catholic practices and teachings, traditions and customs.
CASteinman Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 I have seen the cross in furnishing or architecture in the Temples from time to time (I have visited a few). Most of the time, these are not well visible. But the Temple in Rome apparently will have one on the outside door, facing the world. As an understated symbol, I don't mind it at all. I do believe that overuse causes it to lose something.
teddyaware Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 No comments?The place of ultimate LDS reverence for the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of Christ is in the temple. He who hath ear, let him hear; I can say no more.
Mike Reed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) I would say that there is a difference between Mormon acceptance of the literary symbol of the cross, and the material symbol of the cross.I agree with the opening post that there is a presence of the cross in the hymns, LDS scripture, etc. The cross just doesn't seem to have much of a place in Mormon material culture (outside of artistic depictions). At least, not much since the mid 20th century. Thanks for your response Bernard. Edited April 24, 2013 by Mike Reed
bu11fr0g Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Hymns are not cannon. LDS hymnals use many hymns written by nonMormons. I don't know who wrote the hymns you quoted?LDS teachings have been strongly anti-cross for many years. I don't know when or how this developed.
teddyaware Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) LDS teachings have been strongly anti-cross for many years. I don't know when or how this developed.In light of powerfully graphic scriptural references like the following, I have never been able to understand why we Latter-day Saints have allowed our critics to have a field day of opposition against us by appearing to devalue the words of the prophets in own Bible. After all, the Bible is one of our standard works, don't you know..."But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Galatians 6:14)So rather than taking a step back to ask ourselves if our aversion to the cross as a symbol of the atoning sacrifice of Christ has any validity, in light of the Bible (the one Book we have in common with all of Christendom), we just blithely and in willful blindness pressed forward without ever stopping to ask ourselves why the cross is such an important literary symbol of the atonement in the Bible. We've created serious public relations problems with our non-LDS brethren where non ever needed to exist, if we'd only done our homework.In my opinion, there's really no excuse for this ignorance, especially in light of the immense importance crucufixion symbolism plays in the higher ordinances of the gospel. This is a perfect example of being blind at noonday. And so the anti's gleefully dance around the bonfire of our own blind ignorance, when even our own scriptures validate these same teachings of the Bible..."35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross." (D&C 138)And again..."13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. 14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works." (3 Nephi 27)What happened on the cross of Christ is of infinite and eternal importance. Let's wake up on this one and close the breach. Edited April 24, 2013 by teddyaware
Rivers Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I think it is quite obvious from the OP that Mormons certainly have great reverence for Jesus' sacrifice for us on the cross. Yet too many Mormons, in my opinion, have a hard time appreciating the cross as a symbol. A lot of Mormons like to criticize other Christian faiths for using the instrument of Christ's death as a symbol. i often hear the argument that we focus on the living Christ while others focus on his death. It is mind-boggling.to me how Mormons who sing these sacrament hymns every week fail to appreciate and understand the symbol of the cross.
cdowis Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 There was a thread on this a few months ago. An entire book was recently published.
teddyaware Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I think it is quite obvious from the OP that Mormons certainly have great reverence for Jesus' sacrifice for us on the cross.Yet too many Mormons, in my opinion, have a hard time appreciating the cross as a symbol. A lot of Mormons like to criticize other Christian faiths for using the instrument of Christ's death as a symbol. i often hear the argument that we focus on the living Christ while others focus on his death. It is mind-boggling.to me how Mormons who sing these sacrament hymns every week fail to appreciate and understand the symbol of the cross. The suffering and dying Christ is every bit as important as the rising Christ. If Christ had not first suffered and atoned, there would be no resurrection to glory for him or anyone else. It's by his suffering that he paid the price for our sins. It's by his suffering that "he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth."(D& C 88)Without his suffering, by descending below all things, he could not have comprehended all things experientially, and become our Light of Truth as a resurrected being.
blackstrap Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Hymns are not cannon. LDS hymnals use many hymns written by nonMormons. I don't know who wrote the hymns you quoted?LDS teachings have been strongly anti-cross for many years. I don't know when or how this developed. Funny thing, I have been in the church for almost 60 years. In that time I can't remember any sermon from the pulpit telling us not to revere the cross. Perhaps I just missed them. 1
Mike Reed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) There was a thread on this a few months ago. An entire book was recently published.Here is the book on Amazon:http://www.amazon.co.../dp/1934901350/Here is a podcast interview that I did on FMH recently (I believe Bernard's opening post is in reaction to this episode):http://www.feministm...boos-the-cross/Here is a review of the book, written by Dr. Boyd J. Peterson of UVU and BYU:http://forums.mormon...ersen.aspx#2532Here are a couple old newspaper articles on my research, one from the SL Tribune, and second from Deseret News' Mormon Times:http://wildernesschr.../The-Cross.htmlhttp://www.deseretne...oss.html?pg=all Edited April 24, 2013 by Mike Reed
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 The place of ultimate LDS reverence for the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of Christ is in the temple. He who hath ear, let him hear; I can say no more.That, of course, is the most profound of all LDS symbolism.
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 I would say that there is a difference between Mormon acceptance of the literary symbol of the cross, and the material symbol of the cross.I agree with the opening post that there is a presence of the cross in the hymns, LDS scripture, etc. The cross just doesn't seem to have much of a place in Mormon material culture (outside of artistic depictions). At least, not much since the mid 20th century. Thanks for your response Bernard.I think it goes beyond a literary acceptance of the cross. It is the centerpiece of the two most sacred assemblages in the LDS church, ie., sacrament meeting and the temple. 1
Mike Reed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) I think it goes beyond a literary acceptance of the cross. It is the centerpiece of the two most sacred assemblages in the LDS church, ie., sacrament meeting and the temple.I don't think symbols related to the cross (or related to what happened to Jesus on the cross) are the same thing as a cross symbol. A symbol of a different object of Jesus' crucifixion and death, ok. But, althoug related, that's a different symbol.These are both the peace signs, but they are not the same symbol:Besides this point, however... my book is concerned with tracing the development of Mormon attitudes toward the material and visual symbol of the cross. It isn't concerned with literary symbols, material depictions, etc. The taboo exists with regards to the visual/material symbol of the cross. Edited April 24, 2013 by Mike Reed
Tacenda Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 The place of ultimate LDS reverence for the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of Christ is in the temple. He who hath ear, let him hear; I can say no more.Maybe it's me but I don't get alot of Jesus worship in the temple.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 No comments?I made a post agreeing with Mike Reed, and now cannot find it.
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 Hymns are not cannon. LDS hymnals use many hymns written by nonMormons. I don't know who wrote the hymns you quoted?LDS teachings have been strongly anti-cross for many years. I don't know when or how this developed.It doesn't matter who wrote the hymns. The text of the hymns is carefully reviewed, and anything that is not acceptable is removed. My parents were instrumental in removing a verse from the hymn For the Strength of the Hills. The hymn book is published by the Corporation of the First Presidency. We are encouraged to memorize them and incorporate them in all meetings of the church including the temple. Only three sacrament hymns use text by non-LDS writers.Hymn 192, Isaac Watts. This hymn was in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835.He Died! The Great Redeemer DiedHymn 193, Charles H. Gabriel. This hymn has been in the hymnbook at least since 1948.I Stand All AmazedHymn 194, Cecil Frances Alexander. This hymn has been in the hymnbook since at least 1927.There is a Green Hill Far AwayLDS teachings cannot be considered "anti-cross."
Mike Reed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I made a post agreeing with Mike Reed, and now cannot find it.I don't see it either, PaPa.
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) What happened on the cross of Christ is of infinite and eternal importance. Let's wake up on this one and close the breach.It should be said for the LDS (as well as all other Christians), the cross is to be borne in the heart. Edited April 24, 2013 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) I don't think symbols related to the cross (or related to what happened to Jesus on the cross) are the same thing as a cross symbol. Besides this point, however... my book is concerned with tracing the development of Mormon attitudes toward the material and visual symbol of the cross. It isn't concerned with literary symbols, material depictions, etc. The taboo exists with regards to the visual/material symbol of the cross.I don't agree that it is a taboo because any Mormon can wear a cross, put a crucifix on a wall in the home, or hang one from a rear-view mirror if they wish. One could say those prophets who were instrumental in creating that "taboo" were prescient of the crass commercialization of the most sacred literary and material symbol of Christianity. Since we don't publicly display the cross, we don't have to deal with the issues involved with desecration of the holy symbol. Wearing cross bling doesn't make one a Christian, any more than me wearing an Army Strong t-shirt makes me a soldier. There is a vast difference between a simple silver cross worn as a pendant and this: Edited April 24, 2013 by Bernard Gui
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