Looking For The Cross In All The Wrong Places

[Bernard Gui]

Oh, yes. But no one has discussed these with me, even my husband. We haven't been the best temple goers. We go for his parents birthdays, occasionally for ward functions in sealings, endowments and initiatories. My heart & mind have not fully grasped it I guess.

Next time, spend some time in the celestial room and quietly talk about what you learn with your hubbie and dear friends.

[Bernard Gui]

At my grandfather's funeral the relief society president was concerned by a cross floral arrangement that was donated by a nonmember. To her fellow sisters of the ward, she said something like, "What are we going to do? We don't want to hurt this person's feelings, but we obviously can't display the cross arrangement in the chapel."

She was wrong, out of place, and insensitive.

Was this sister more extreme in her concern for the cross than the average Mormon? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But even if we conclude that the average Mormon would not have raised the question... I think it is safe to also say that the average Mormon would still have had the same sort of thoughts and concerns. They just wouldn't have vocalized them.

Mrs. Gui and I and all the other Guis are average Mormons. We would not have been the least bothered.

When I served a mission, a convert with tears in his eyes told us excitedly that he received an answer to his prayers about whether he should join the Church. The night before, after reading the BoM and saying his prayers, he had a dream of a Cross. This was his answer that brought peace and conformation to his heart. What did my companion and I do? Well... we just raised our eyebrows and asked, "Will you be baptized?" What was I thinking as I did this though? I was confused, wondering why God would use an apostate symbol to lead someone to the Church. I don't think my reaction was different from what the average member would have been thinking.

Personal revelation is one thing. Spreading it as doctrine or practice is another.

I will grant you this: The taboo is less than what it was a generation or two ago in Mormon culture, but the taboo still exists.

I'm of the 2-generations-ago vintage, and I will agree, although my upbringing was in New Mexico, most of my friends were Catholic including some in-laws, and the cross never gave me heartburn.

[Bernard Gui]

Sure there is a difference. One is plain and metalic, while the other is decorated and embroided into clothing? You haven't yet explained precisely why the latter qualifies as desecration?

You probably won't accept my explanation, but here goes:

There is a green hill far away, without a city wall, where our dear

Lord was crucified. Upon the cross of Calvary, they crucified our Lord,

and sealed with blood the sacrifice that sanctified his word.

While guilty men his pain deride, they pierce his hand, and feet, and side.

I think of his hands, pierced and bleeding to pay the debt. His precious

blood he freely spilled, his life he freely gave. Come, Saints, and drop a tear or two

for him who groaned beneath your load...he shed a thousand drops for you, a thousand

drops of precious blood. Bruised, broken, torn for us, on Calvary's hill, thy suffering borne

for us, lives with us still. Help me, oh Lord, to realize the great atoning sacrifice, the gift of

thy beloved Son, the Prince of Life, the Holy One. Life evermore we'll know, through thee,

our Friend. God loved us, so He sent His Son.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Why then is "cross" the dominant literary symbol for the atonement in LDS scripture? Why is there death symbolism in the temple (see Isaiah 22:23 for a hint at what I mean)? Mormons also believe that Joseph's work extends beyond the grave, and yet Mormons often tour Carthage Jail, treat it as sacred space, and have extreme spiritual experiences therein.

Carthage Jail ear rings. Those would sell.

[Bernard Gui]

Prophets are men, granted men of God. It is not a sin to have a cross. The scriptures tell us to "worship at the cross", we sing about it and remember it every Sunday. "Behold the Great Redeemer Die", "I Stand All Amazed".

The point of the OP, by the way.

[Bernard Gui]

I don't think Mike was seeking a clever idea for a book, just doing as others do...seek to put forth an idea worthy of discussion. The point is, many LDS think wearing or having a cross is not kosher. But in the early history of our Church many did so and little was thought of it. We do not need it on our buildings to be Christian, we have a greater charge from Christ, to "pick up our crosses and follow him". According to Church teaching and in our Sunday School material for new members we are reminded that the Atonement began in Gethsemane and ended on the Cross. Most people have crosses in their homes, via "Christian doors" the most common in nice homes, they have the cross on top and the bottom is to symbolic of the open Bible. From what I understand the Temple in Rome was designed this way to make such a statement. I don't care if we don't have them on our buildings, but hope we have them in our hearts and minds. If they were to be put on every building or Temple, I would be OK with, just don't see it as necessary to show others we are Christian. What matters most is what is inside the building.

Nothing says, "I'm a Christian," better than a little cross bling:

Edited April 26, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Can there be any doubt he is a Christian?

Edited April 26, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

My most humble and sincere apologies.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

My most humble and sincere apologies.

Not an earring but a Christmas tree ornament for those who don't recognize it.

One of the problems of not knowing when to say 'stop' to a good idea. After all there are only so many temple ornaments (which is how they got started, IIRC) one can do.

[Bernard Gui]

Not an earring but a Christmas tree ornament for those who don't recognize it.

One of the problems of not knowing when to say 'stop' to a good idea. After all there are only so many temple ornaments (which is how they got started, IIRC) one can do.

Not much of a step from ornament to pendant to ear ring. );

There are a lot of temples now.

Here's a shocker...bound to open some conversations at church:

http://www.zazzle.com/martyrdom_of_joseph_hiram_smith_in_carthage_jail_necklace-177877417065575537

Edited April 26, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

This one too:

http://www.ctrringsales.com/Joseph-Smith-Jupiter-Talisman-Antique-Silver-plated-Coin-_p_1800.html

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Nothing says, "I'm a Christian," better than a little cross bling:

I did not suggest that everyone wearing a cross was Christian and it is sad some go too far, but this seems rather mocking. I was raised by a Baptist Minister father, who taught me to respect the cross. It means a great deal to a great many good people. Perhaps a reread on the ancient Apostles and words of current about being understanding. It does not matter that others died on crosses, it matters that our Saviour, which is why his perfected, resurrected body still bares them. When he comes again, he will appear before his people, the children of Israel, will ask; "What are these wounds on thy body" and he will reply, "These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends" to paraphrase from the words of Christ. Our Sunday School material teaches that the Atonement began in the Garden and ended on the Cross, and everything in between. I have been a member of this Church for 34 years, don't own one, but pray I can pick up my own and follow after him as he commanded. My I ask that others respect those who want to wear one and revere it. I did not leave the faith of my youth who loved it because I did not love them, but to be with a faith that was more doctrinally correct, but it pains me when some cannot show a great respect for others faiths. I once had a sister I had to interview for a calling who grew up Catholic, she asked me how I feel about the cross, I told her I love it. She began to cry, because people told her it was wearing a murder weapon around her neck; would she wear a gun or a knife around her neck? I'm sorry for preaching, but I am not good and being cruel or dismissive. It just seems people are so afraid of differing ideas, especially among their own. I am a cultural Baptist, but a Mormon to the core and proud of both.

[Tacenda]

I did not suggest that everyone wearing a cross was Christian and it is sad some go too far, but this seems rather mocking. I was raised by a Baptist Minister father, who taught me to respect the cross. It means a great deal to a great many good people. Perhaps a reread on the ancient Apostles and words of current about being understanding. It does not matter that others died on crosses, it matters that our Saviour, which is why his perfected, resurrected body still bares them. When he comes again, he will appear before his people, the children of Israel, will ask; "What are these wounds on thy body" and he will reply, "These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends" to paraphrase from the words of Christ. Our Sunday School material teaches that the Atonement began in the Garden and ended on the Cross, and everything in between. I have been a member of this Church for 34 years, don't own one, but pray I can pick up my own and follow after him as he commanded. My I ask that others respect those who want to wear one and revere it. I did not leave the faith of my youth who loved it because I did not love them, but to be with a faith that was more doctrinally correct, but it pains me when some cannot show a great respect for others faiths. I once had a sister I had to interview for a calling who grew up Catholic, she asked me how I feel about the cross, I told her I love it. She began to cry, because people told her it was wearing a murder weapon around her neck; would she wear a gun or a knife around her neck? I'm sorry for preaching, but I am not good and being cruel or dismissive. It just seems people are so afraid of differing ideas, especially among their own. I am a cultural Baptist, but a Mormon to the core and proud of both.

Yes I agree these attributes of some LDS need to be addressed somewhere in the church. I have a friend in the ward that was almost horrified that I said I wanted to wear a cross necklace and it was a tiny little cross not even noticeable. It was almost like she was thinking the cross was evil or something. But just going on her reaction about it I've yet to wear it. Don't know if I ever will as long as I'm a LDS.

[Stone holm]

Yes I agree these attributes of some LDS need to be addressed somewhere in the church. I have a friend in the ward that was almost horrified that I said I wanted to wear a cross necklace and it was a tiny little cross not even noticeable. It was almost like she was thinking the cross was evil or something. But just going on her reaction about it I've yet to wear it. Don't know if I ever will as long as I'm a LDS.

If somebody wants to wear a Cross or a Star of David or a Crescent or a Pentangle, I don't see anything wrong with any of that, just as I don't see anything wrong with women wearing pants to Church or men having beards. I don't think we should be using a cross as a focus point for prayer, etc or flashing it around as much as some Protestants do as an in your face I am religious sort of thing -- but I think we should be respectful of the religious symbols and attire of other faiths as a sort of golden rule kind of thing

[CASteinman]

If somebody wants to wear a Cross or a Star of David or a Crescent or a Pentangle, I don't see anything wrong with any of that, just as I don't see anything wrong with women wearing pants to Church or men having beards. I don't think we should be using a cross as a focus point for prayer, etc or flashing it around as much as some Protestants do as an in your face I am religious sort of thing -- but I think we should be respectful of the religious symbols and attire of other faiths as a sort of golden rule kind of thing

Symbols matter.

[Calm]

I did not suggest that everyone wearing a cross was Christian and it is sad some go too far, but this seems rather mocking. I was raised by a Baptist Minister father, who taught me to respect the cross.

I believe BG is not mocking those who wear a cross, but saying that wearing the cross as a fashion statement, embellishing it so much its form and purpose is almost lost is not a sign of respecting the cross...that those who wear it should respect it by treating it with caution in how it is presented.

Perhaps I have been confused though and you see the shirt as mocking and not the posting of it.

Edited April 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

Symbols matter.

Yes they do. Not suggesting I would wear any of the same, and if I were asked should I wear these as a Mormon, I would simply say, "Well if it were me I wouldn't." On the other hand, I wouldn't take it upon myself as a member or even as a Bishop to dress one down for doing so. They matter but not that much.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I believe BG is not mocking those who wear a cross, but saying that wearing the cross as a fashion statement, embellishing it so much its form and purpose is almost lost is not a sign of respecting the cross...that those who wear it should respect it by treating it with caution in how it is presented.

Perhaps I have been confused though and you see the shirt as mocking and not the posting of it.

No, I stated are thought I did that such displays were sad.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Symbols matter.

Could you expand...I agree they do. Are you suggesting any of those have a negative meaning. I love the "Star of David".

[Stone holm]

Could you expand...I agree they do. Are you suggesting any of those have a negative meaning. I love the "Star of David".

I suppose some symbols shouldn't be tolerated in polite society, like the swastika...except if I recall its on the Salt Lake Temple...sh. Don't let the author know or we will be revering it as well.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I suppose some symbols shouldn't be tolerated in polite society, like the swastika...except if I recall its on the Salt Lake Temple...sh. Don't let the author know or we will be revering it as well.

There are many symbols on the Temple, don't recall that one. The SLC Temple predates the swastika used in Germany by about 60 years, maybe longer it took 40 years to build. Many of those symbols were on earlier Temples.

[CASteinman]

Yes they do. Not suggesting I would wear any of the same, and if I were asked should I wear these as a Mormon, I would simply say, "Well if it were me I wouldn't." On the other hand, I wouldn't take it upon myself as a member or even as a Bishop to dress one down for doing so. They matter but not that much.

I agree. People get to choose and this doesn't seem like a huge deal. But on the other hand, I don't think it is fair to say that there is NOTHING wrong with wearing "a Cross or a Star of David or a Crescent or a Pentangle, women wearing pants to Church or men having beards." Symbols have meaning. They are intended often to convey the meaning of "membership" in some group. We should not openly display our double mindedness. It can undermine the faith of others and create problems that the Church does not need.

I have always liked the Masonic Symbols. So much that I would like to wear one of their rings. But I would never do that. I also have seen members who do and I never take them to task for it.

Having said that, would someone NOT take a person to task for wearing Klan Symbols or a Swastika? Well, actually I would not. But it would not be right for people to wear them.

[Stone holm]

I agree. People get to choose and this doesn't seem like a huge deal. But on the other hand, I don't think it is fair to say that there is NOTHING wrong with wearing "a Cross or a Star of David or a Crescent or a Pentangle, women wearing pants to Church or men having beards." Symbols have meaning. They are intended often to convey the meaning of "membership" in some group. We should not openly display our double mindedness. It can undermine the faith of others and create problems that the Church does not need.

I have always liked the Masonic Symbols. So much that I would like to wear one of their rings. But I would never do that. I also have seen members who do and I never take them to task for it.

Having said that, would someone NOT take a person to task for wearing Klan Symbols or a Swastika? Well, actually I would not. But it would not be right for people to wear them.

I bounced a boy out of scouts for showing up at a court of honor wearing Nazi Armbands

[CASteinman]

I bounced a boy out of scouts for showing up at a court of honor wearing Nazi Armbands

I am not sure on what grounds but Scouts are different from the Church.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Not much of a step from ornament to pendant to ear ring. );

There are a lot of temples now.

Here's a shocker...bound to open some conversations at church:

http://www.zazzle.com/martyrdom_of_joseph_hiram_smith_in_carthage_jail_necklace-177877417065575537

The one of Joseph and Hyrum was not at a Temple. I wish there were many more talks about Hyrum.