Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 Maybe it's me but I don't get alot of Jesus worship in the temple.Tacenda...the whole point of the temple is Jesus and the crucifixion! 1
Tacenda Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Tacenda...the whole point of the temple is Jesus and the crucifixion! I'd love for you to PM if you have time and give me some help to see what you see then. I think that I missed something then, and it may be because we don't talk about what goes on in the temple. Edited April 24, 2013 by Tacenda
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 There was a thread on this a few months ago. An entire book was recently published.This is in response to the recent SL Tribune article and a blog mentioned by Mike about a week ago.
teddyaware Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Maybe it's me but I don't get alot of Jesus worship in the temple.I'm not surprized. Though I would be a fool to say I thoroughly understand all there is to know about the temple ordinances, it's true I understand more than most of the people I know. If it were permissible for me to take you through and explain to you what I do know at this point in time, you would probably be astounded. Especially so because much of it is so obvious that when you finally get it you are absolutely stunned that you had for so long missed things that are so bluntly obvious. The last time I went I had one of these experiences, and was deeply shocked that for many years I had missed the perfectly obvious meaning of a particular symbol. Botton line? The ordinances of the temple are profoundly christocentric and christological. Bernard has it right. Edited April 24, 2013 by teddyaware
Bernard Gui Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 I'd love for you to PM if you have time and give me some help to see what you see then. I think that I missed something then, and it may be because we don't talk about what goes on in the temple.We can talk about it in the celestial room. Mrs. Gui and I always talk about what we learned after a session.Have you participated in sealings?
Tacenda Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 We can talk about it in the celestial room. Mrs. Gui and I always talk about what we learned after a session.Have you participated in sealings?Oh, yes. But no one has discussed these with me, even my husband. We haven't been the best temple goers. We go for his parents birthdays, occasionally for ward functions in sealings, endowments and initiatories. My heart & mind have not fully grasped it I guess.
Mike Reed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) I don't agree that it is a taboo because any Mormon can wear a cross, put a crucifix on a wall in the home, or hang one from a rear-view mirror if they wish.At my grandfather's funeral the relief society president was concerned by a cross floral arrangement that was donated by a nonmember. To her fellow sisters of the ward, she said something like, "What are we going to do? We don't want to hurt this person's feelings, but we obviously can't display the cross arrangement in the chapel."Was this sister more extreme in her concern for the cross than the average Mormon? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But even if we conclude that the average Mormon would not have raised the question... I think it is safe to also say that the average Mormon would still have had the same sort of thoughts and concerns. They just wouldn't have vocalized them.When I served a mission, a convert with tears in his eyes told us excitedly that he received an answer to his prayers about whether he should join the Church. The night before, after reading the BoM and saying his prayers, he had a dream of a Cross. This was his answer that brought peace and conformation to his heart. What did my companion and I do? Well... we just raised our eyebrows and asked, "Will you be baptized?" What was I thinking as I did this though? I was confused, wondering why God would use an apostate symbol to lead someone to the Church. I don't think my reaction was different from what the average member would have been thinking. I will grant you this: The taboo is less than what it was a generation or two ago in Mormon culture, but the taboo still exists. Edited April 24, 2013 by Mike Reed
Mike Reed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) There is a vast difference between a simple silver cross worn as a pendant and this:Sure there is a difference. One is plain and metalic, while the other is decorated and embroided into clothing? You haven't yet explained precisely why the latter qualifies as desecration? Edited April 24, 2013 by Mike Reed
Stone holm Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 No comments?What is there to say? The cross did not become the symbol of Christianity until the time and by a vision obtained by a person who we assert sealed the finality of the Great Apostasy, namely Constantine and his vision. We acknowledge the sacrifice of Christ and his death, but we celebrate His resurrection and the fact that He is still literally speaking to at least some of us.
sdc999 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Funny thing, I have been in the church for almost 60 years. In that time I can't remember any sermon from the pulpit telling us not to revere the cross. Perhaps I just missed them.I'm not sure how old you are but my MIL has been in the church for quite some time. I think she traveled with Moses for awhile. She once said she was once dressed down pretty harshly for wearing a cross one Sunday by one of the Bishopric. This was many years ago and she never wore it again. Although it didn't come from a sermon from the pulpit, it came from one who controls the sermons from the pulpit.
Stone holm Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I'm not sure how old you are but my MIL has been in the church for quite some time. I think she traveled with Moses for awhile. She once said she was once dressed down pretty harshly for wearing a cross one Sunday by one of the Bishopric. This was many years ago and she never wore it again. Although it didn't come from a sermon from the pulpit, it came from one who controls the sermons from the pulpit.I am a little surprised at that, but we don't preach to revere the cross.
Mike Reed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 What is there to say? The cross did not become the symbol of Christianity until the time and by a vision obtained by a person who we assert sealed the finality of the Great Apostasy, namely Constantine and his vision.That's not true. I suggest reading my book's appendix. We acknowledge the sacrifice of Christ and his death, but we celebrate His resurrection and the fact that He is still literally speaking to at least some of us.Why then is "cross" the dominant literary symbol for the atonement in LDS scripture? Why is there death symbolism in the temple (see Isaiah 22:23 for a hint at what I mean)? Mormons also believe that Joseph's work extends beyond the grave, and yet Mormons often tour Carthage Jail, treat it as sacred space, and have extreme spiritual experiences therein.
sdc999 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 What is there to say? The cross did not become the symbol of Christianity until the time and by a vision obtained by a person who we assert sealed the finality of the Great Apostasy, namely Constantine and his vision. We acknowledge the sacrifice of Christ and his death, but we celebrate His resurrection and the fact that He is still literally speaking to at least some of us.I would like to see your views on Christmas.. What a party time that was in the old days and we still love to celebrate mostly pagan rituals today - and call it Christianity!
sdc999 Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 I am a little surprised at that, but we don't preach to revere the cross.Surprised that she walked with Moses or the events in church? I love her, but she's been around awhile.
bu11fr0g Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Official description of church response to cross: https://www.lds.org/topics/cross?lang=eng"But because the Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith."
teddyaware Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Official description of church response to cross: https://www.lds.org/topics/cross?lang=eng"But because the Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith."We do not use the symbol of his cross per se. But multifold symbols of the Lord's crucifixion are of paramount importance to the practice of our faith and to the obtaining of eternal life. Edited April 24, 2013 by teddyaware
Mike Reed Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Official description of church response to cross: https://www.lds.org/topics/cross?lang=eng"But because the Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith."Yes. I address this higly problematic quote in my book, as well as in the podcast.
CASteinman Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 Yes. I address this higly problematic quote in my book, as well as in the podcast.Is it the quote that is highly problematic or your belief that it is incorrect that is highly problematic?
Stone holm Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 That's not true. I suggest reading my book's appendix. Why then is "cross" the dominant literary symbol for the atonement in LDS scripture? Why is there death symbolism in the temple (see Isaiah 22:23 for a hint at what I mean)? Mormons also believe that Joseph's work extends beyond the grave, and yet Mormons often tour Carthage Jail, treat it as sacred space, and have extreme spiritual experiences therein.Don't think it is.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 I don't see it either, PaPa.What I posted, is we have the cross in our art, hearts, lit and on Rome Temple. You don't see it elsewhere in large part to misfortunate comments from past leaders. So, I was agreeing with Mike's book on the topic.
Mike Reed Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 Is it the quote that is highly problematic or your belief that it is incorrect that is highly problematic?the former.
CASteinman Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 the former.Aside from quoting yourself, how would you validate that? I say that quoting yourself is not quite right because that would almost be the same as you disagreeing with it.
Stone holm Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 have you been endowed?Yep, but depicting the manner of execution does not mean we revere a symbol. Certain crosses had meanings other than the crucifixion. Methods of taking life were always part of the esoteric rituals. I find that not a very convincing argument for the assertion.
Mike Reed Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) Aside from quoting yourself, how would you validate that? I say that quoting yourself is not quite right because that would almost be the same as you disagreeing with it.the book makes the argument. Or rather, I make the argument in the book. You should read it. Edited April 25, 2013 by Mike Reed 1
Recommended Posts