Looking For The Cross In All The Wrong Places

[Mike Reed]

My most humble and sincere apologies.

indeed. Someone must've private msged you, because this img has been posted here a couple times before.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I agree. People get to choose and this doesn't seem like a huge deal. But on the other hand, I don't think it is fair to say that there is NOTHING wrong with wearing "a Cross or a Star of David or a Crescent or a Pentangle, women wearing pants to Church or men having beards." Symbols have meaning. They are intended often to convey the meaning of "membership" in some group. We should not openly display our double mindedness. It can undermine the faith of others and create problems that the Church does not need.

I have always liked the Masonic Symbols. So much that I would like to wear one of their rings. But I would never do that. I also have seen members who do and I never take them to task for it.

Having said that, would someone NOT take a person to task for wearing Klan Symbols or a Swastika? Well, actually I would not. But it would not be right for people to wear them.

Not to derail, but if anything is wrong with men having beards in Church, does not say much for our first Prophets 2-7 I believe and Joseph was known to have one at times. Mormons don't have any symbol worn openly, but the cross is a Christian symbol and we are a part of that community, no matter what our critics think...that had been made clear in conference talks hundreds of times. How we dress has been addressed many times. As my grandmother taught me, "you're not going to your house but the Lord's.

[Mike Reed]

I bounced a boy out of scouts for showing up at a court of honor wearing Nazi Armbands

boy scout flags used to have the swastika on it. Are you sure he wasn't just going old school?

[Mike Reed]

You probably won't accept my explanation, but here goes:

There is a green hill far away, without a city wall, where our dear

Lord was crucified. Upon the cross of Calvary, they crucified our Lord,

and sealed with blood the sacrifice that sanctified his word.

While guilty men his pain deride, they pierce his hand, and feet, and side.

I think of his hands, pierced and bleeding to pay the debt. His precious

blood he freely spilled, his life he freely gave. Come, Saints, and drop a tear or two

for him who groaned beneath your load...he shed a thousand drops for you, a thousand

drops of precious blood. Bruised, broken, torn for us, on Calvary's hill, thy suffering borne

for us, lives with us still. Help me, oh Lord, to realize the great atoning sacrifice, the gift of

thy beloved Son, the Prince of Life, the Holy One. Life evermore we'll know, through thee,

our Friend. God loved us, so He sent His Son.

And this is supposed to answer my question? I guess you've got nothing.

[Bernard Gui]

I did not suggest that everyone wearing a cross was Christian and it is sad some go too far, but this seems rather mocking. I was raised by a Baptist Minister father, who taught me to respect the cross. It means a great deal to a great many good people. Perhaps a reread on the ancient Apostles and words of current about being understanding. It does not matter that others died on crosses, it matters that our Saviour, which is why his perfected, resurrected body still bares them. When he comes again, he will appear before his people, the children of Israel, will ask; "What are these wounds on thy body" and he will reply, "These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends" to paraphrase from the words of Christ. Our Sunday School material teaches that the Atonement began in the Garden and ended on the Cross, and everything in between. I have been a member of this Church for 34 years, don't own one, but pray I can pick up my own and follow after him as he commanded. My I ask that others respect those who want to wear one and revere it. I did not leave the faith of my youth who loved it because I did not love them, but to be with a faith that was more doctrinally correct, but it pains me when some cannot show a great respect for others faiths. I once had a sister I had to interview for a calling who grew up Catholic, she asked me how I feel about the cross, I told her I love it. She began to cry, because people told her it was wearing a murder weapon around her neck; would she wear a gun or a knife around her neck? I'm sorry for preaching, but I am not good and being cruel or dismissive. It just seems people are so afraid of differing ideas, especially among their own. I am a cultural Baptist, but a Mormon to the core and proud of both.

One can love the cross in other ways than wearing it on your cowboy boots.

[Bernard Gui]

Yes I agree these attributes of some LDS need to be addressed somewhere in the church. I have a friend in the ward that was almost horrified that I said I wanted to wear a cross necklace and it was a tiny little cross not even noticeable. It was almost like she was thinking the cross was evil or something. But just going on her reaction about it I've yet to wear it. Don't know if I ever will as long as I'm a LDS.

How about the best of both worlds...wear it under a sweater or blouse.

[Bernard Gui]

I believe BG is not mocking those who wear a cross, but saying that wearing the cross as a fashion statement, embellishing it so much its form and purpose is almost lost is not a sign of respecting the cross...that those who wear it should respect it by treating it with caution in how it is presented.

Perhaps I have been confused though and you see the shirt as mocking and not the posting of it.

You are right on target. As I stated earlier, I have no heartburn with a simple small silver cross. The crass commercialization of the cross (Google images for cross bling) is offensive. Wearing the cross does not make one a Christian any more than wearing pointy ears makes one a Vulcan.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

The one of Joseph and Hyrum was not at a Temple. I wish there were many more talks about Hyrum.

Off topic, but yes. Hyrum needs to be brought to the forefront.

[Mike Reed]

How about the best of both worlds...wear it under a sweater or blouse.

Ah yes. They should hide it to cater to bigotry. Edited April 27, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Bernard Gui]

indeed. Someone must've private msged you, because this img has been posted here a couple times before.

No. I found it myself. I haven't had a pm for years.

[Bernard Gui]

And this is supposed to answer my question? I guess you've got nothing.

Like I said...you would't accept my answer. All symbols

of the Atonement are most sacred and holy, not objects to be

manipulated, commercialized, exposed, blasphemed, misused.

The true cross is borne in the heart.

[CASteinman]

Not to derail, but if anything is wrong with men having beards in Church, does not say much for our first Prophets 2-7

Well, that's not really true. What is wrong with beards is that the Prophet and Apostles have discouraged them for modern times. It is not meet that we should be commanded in ALL things.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

And this is supposed to answer my question? I guess you've got nothing.

What was the question, I read the song...great one btw for those who think the cross is just like any other "murder weapon", and who do not realize where the Atonement ended, but so many of other faiths deny where it began. We should could use a lot of middle ground and more Christians and Mormon Christians talking. When I was growing up Baptist, old song books had a number of songs about Gethsemane and the Atonement.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Well, that's not really true. What is wrong with beards is that the Prophet and Apostles have discouraged them for modern times. It is not meet that we should be commanded in ALL things.

I had to have major reconstructive jaw surgery causing nerve damage which makes it very painful for me to shave...so I don't but keep my goatee very short; am I being disobedient? I once talked to my Stake President, while I was in the Bishopric if there was a problem. Knowing my situation, he said "Bill get serious, you a grown man", he kept me in the Bishopric for 3 more years. Before that I was HPGL with same facial hair for, five years. Any quotes on a "commandment not to have facial hair"?

[CASteinman]

I had to have major reconstructive jaw surgery causing nerve damage which makes it very painful for me to shave

I can sympathize. I have a condition, which, if the prophet were to declare that we HAD to wear beards, I would ask for an exemption. (Beards are extremely uncomfortable for me.) I would hope it would be granted. I think that the Lord always commands his servants to be prudent in things and it is not meet that a man should run faster than he is able.

Your situation is not that of a rebel to the instructions of the Lord's anointed. Which is important.

In the same way, if we baptize someone who has tattoos -- well that is just how it goes. We have a fellow in our branch who has a tattoo on his face. Never mind.

But if he were to get another one now that he has repented and been baptized, that would be a shame.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Off topic, but yes. Hyrum needs to be brought to the forefront.

OK, Sorry I though you posted the "Joseph, Hyrum," pendant.

[Bernard Gui]

Ah yes. They should hide it to cater to bigotry.

Not at all. She can wear her cross and be considerate of a friend

at the same time. Many of us cover our sacred symbols with

clothing.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Jersey Girl]

Looking for the Cross in All the Wrong Places

We may not know, we cannot tell, what pains he had to bear,

But we believe it was for us he hung and suffered there. Hymn 194

Some observers fault the supposed LDS neglect of the Christian symbol of the cross because of its intentional absence from Mormon church buildings, clothing, jewelry, art, and iconography.

Hi Bernard! I appreciate what you are trying to say in your post, but as a non-LDS who spent a good amount of time opposing LDS doctrine, etc. years ago and who has refined her position, I don't think you've got it quite right. What observers "fault" or criticize is not the absence of the cross on church buildings, etc, but the seeming replacement of the cross (which many/most of us believe is central to Christianity) with Mormon related symbols. For example, we see a large image of Moroni atop the buildings where we think we should see a cross.

The thing is though, that I am not LDS and therefore I don't think I can rightly dictate what are/are not meaningful symbols for a Latter-day Saint. In that regard, I cannot criticize with any amount of intellectual or self honesty. Okay, I probably just opened the door to be criticized by both "sides", right?

Not my problem!

[Jersey Girl]

I don't think symbols related to the cross (or related to what happened to Jesus on the cross) are the same thing as a cross symbol. A symbol of a different object of Jesus' crucifixion and death, ok. But, althoug related, that's a different symbol.

These are both the peace signs, but they are not the same symbol:

Besides this point, however... my book is concerned with tracing the development of Mormon attitudes toward the material and visual symbol of the cross. It isn't concerned with literary symbols, material depictions, etc. The taboo exists with regards to the visual/material symbol of the cross.

Those are NOT both peace signs, Mike.

[Stone holm]

boy scout flags used to have the swastika on it. Are you sure he wasn't just going old school?

Yeah and they used to give a Nazi style salute while saying the Pledge of Allegiance instead of hand on heart but that was back when they had the godless version of the Pledge so I guess it doesn't count.

[Stone holm]

Not to derail, but if anything is wrong with men having beards in Church, does not say much for our first Prophets 2-7 I believe and Joseph was known to have one at times. Mormons don't have any symbol worn openly, but the cross is a Christian symbol and we are a part of that community, no matter what our critics think...that had been made clear in conference talks hundreds of times. How we dress has been addressed many times. As my grandmother taught me, "you're not going to your house but the Lord's.

Oh but the beard ban was instituted because they were afraid we all might start following Castro, and we needed to look more like the all-American Cleaver family.

[Denise]

I'm a LDS convert of 36 years and I was always taught that the sacrifice made by Christ as an atonement for our sins was actually performed in the Garden of Gethsemane when he "sweated blood from every pore". His actual death on the cross sealed the atonement, but dying wasn't the great gift. Anyone could die for another, and many have made that sacrifice. As commendable as it is, only Christ could "take upon him the sins of the world". I find it interesting that the emphasis is on the object of his mortal death for many religions. Although I can't think of any other object that would more adequately symbolize the atonement. Especially since no one really knows the form of agony it required for Jesus. Since it did involve the sins of the whole world, it is a wonder to me how his mortal body even survived the atonement to get to the point of being hung on the cross. Must have been the God part of his parental heritage.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Oh but the beard ban was instituted because they were afraid we all might start following Castro, and we needed to look more like the all-American Cleaver family.

Never heard anything like this..CFR please?

[Bernard Gui]

Hi Bernard! I appreciate what you are trying to say in your post, but as a non-LDS who spent a good amount of time opposing LDS doctrine, etc. years ago and who has refined her position, I don't think you've got it quite right. What observers "fault" or criticize is not the absence of the cross on church buildings, etc, but the seeming replacement of the cross (which many/most of us believe is central to Christianity) with Mormon related symbols. For example, we see a large image of Moroni atop the buildings where we think we should see a cross.

The thing is though, that I am not LDS and therefore I don't think I can rightly dictate what are/are not meaningful symbols for a Latter-day Saint. In that regard, I cannot criticize with any amount of intellectual or self honesty. Okay, I probably just opened the door to be criticized by both "sides", right?

Not my problem!

No worries! I appreciate your non-LDS point of view. We LDS do have our sacred symbols...Moroni is not comparable with the cross. Our most holy symbols are worn out of view so they are a constant reminder of our love for the Savior. If I were to wear a cross, it would also be out of public view. It is a most sacred object, IMO.

[Bernard Gui]

Oh but the beard ban was instituted because they were afraid we all might start following Castro, and we needed to look more like the all-American Cleaver family.

I was at BYU when the ban was started, and I was one who had to cut the shrub. I wore mine because I like the beatnik scene. The beard had become a token of rebellion against authority and society, not so much Castro. But who would want to emulate Castro?