The Latest From Grant Palmer

[CASteinman]

It really might be a ploy just to increase booking revenues.

boy, I can't believe I just typed that so nonchalantly. It is so corrupt.... but I personally think that's where he is.

Edited April 9, 2013 by CASteinman

[Avatar4321]

Not to familiar with federal laws, or if there is a law or statue regarding the issue. I can tell you it would probably fall under freedom of religion. Once I request to be removed from a religion a church can not infringe upon my rights.

Just looked it up looks like it is n the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. http://www.un.org/en...dhr/index.shtml Article 18 . It is probably based off that also.

So you're saying that despite the fact that Congress shall make no law concerning the free exercise of religion, that Congress created laws concerning what a faith can or cannot do?

[Scott Lloyd]

Don't worry, Scooby Doo is still on TV. My kids watch it. They make new episodes so they now have mobile phones and search engines to do their research instead of old newspapers at the library.

But even a 25year whipper-snapper should get the reference

Thing is, I remember when the show first came out -- about 1969. You know how the one kid always wears neck scarves (or used to in the earlier episodes)? That was my era. About the time I entered 9th grade. Neck scarves on males were only the fashion for about a year, but it is forever frozen in time with Scooby-Doo.

[DonBradley]

Just to clarify, it is simply impossible for me to actually believe that the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles are closet nonbelievers. It's much more believable to me that there might be one of the Seventy who could have lost his faith. If so, I would hope this is just a temporary thing for him.

I have never known Grant Palmer well, but I did once join in a wicked cabal with him, Gail Porritt, Jr., and Kishkumen over lunch, while I was an ex-Mormon, and in spite of all our blood oaths, nefarious scheming, and (fried) chicken sacrifice, he seemed like a nice guy and sincere in his nonbelief.

If he were prone to make up stories like this, I would think he would have begun doing so a decade ago, rather than waiting till now. So, I think he is sincere in believing that this General Authority has lost his faith as well.

My Take So Far,

Don

[why me]

Is it improper on this board for one to opine that this story is purely wishful thinking on Palmer's part? That he's concocted a narrative he fervently wishes was true, but is telling it as if it were true so as to be able to bemusedly observe the reactions of faithful member's? Could it be that he imagines the average member of the Church is so insecure in his or her testiomony that he believes propagating this falsehood will cause those supposed insecurities to bubble to the surface? And could it be that in Palmer's perfect world this fantasy is an example of how things ought to be, so he feels perfectly justified in disseminating a lie, the ends justifying the means because he "knows for sure" the Church is a fraudulent enterprise?

I think that he also made the same claim at the exmormon conference. It didn't have legs then and it doesn't have legs now. But perhaps he thought that he would try again with the story and see where it lands. What I noticed from his exmormon presentation is his wish that the church falls away and disappears. Or that the church loses its truth claim. And I think that he gives himself claim over causing many people higher up to doubt the faith based on his book.

[Scott Lloyd]

https://www.lds.org/...ounced?lang=eng

I am trying to figure out who would be the General Authority who would even say this ( for the record I think this whole thing is totally BOGUS)

what does "a number of years" even mean, 5, 10, 20? There are only a handful of brethren who were called prior to 2000. Elders Amado, Porter, Vinas, Maynes, Zwick, ****son. But All of them except for one is out serving in the world so wouldn't have been around for these meetings. Elder Porter is a saint and I know that from reading his book, the King of Kings and from others who know him personally so it can't be him. I doubt its Elder Maynes either

An emeritus GA perhaps? Somebody who is getting so far along in years that he's suffering dimentia?

That has a tiny grain of plausibility. But even that's a stretch almost to the breaking point..

This may be the end for Palmer. It's so far over the top, even his stalwart supporters -- like Dehlin -- may find they can no longer hang with him.

[MormonMason]

So you're saying that despite the fact that Congress shall make no law concerning the free exercise of religion, that Congress created laws concerning what a faith can or cannot do?

Actually, yes. They began that slippery slope with Reynolds vs. United States. It is now up to the courts to decide what might be considered to pose a danger to a person, whether physical or mental/emotional. That can change and be modified over time with the political leanings of the judges who hear such cases.

[why me]

If he were prone to make up stories like this, I would think he would have begun doing so a decade ago, rather than waiting till now. So, I think he is sincere in believing that this General Authority has lost his faith as well.

My Take So Far,

Don

I think that one can progress with their disbelief systems, especially as age sets in. Listening to Grant at the exmo conference I saw a man very much taken in with his own self importance. And it did not help to get such admiration from the audience. Of course it would feel good and nothing wrong with that but when the limelight fades, what then? Grant is still plugging his book even after all these years as he did at the conference.

He gave this story at the exmo conference and it went nowhere. I am sure that that was a disappointment to him. Now he is giving it new light with added details.

In a panel discussion at the exmormon conference Grant also claimed that he has a cousin working on the JSP and this cousin told him that his co-workers on the project are leaving out embarrassing information about Joseph Smith and church history because they do not want this information published in the JSPs. Is this true? Or is it a story?

Edited April 9, 2013 by why me

[Robert F. Smith]

Grant Palmer wrote:

We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, “We are here to learn.” I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.

He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told. He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.

http://journeyofloya...m/2013/04/06/6/

This is just a part of what he is now claiming. The writing seems to have been verified as being from Grant Palmer. If so, I found his take on it quite unbelievable. I think that he needs to name names if he is posting such 'information'.

Thanks for some good horse laughs. Pseudepigraphon, with an emphasis on PIG.

[Calm]

If he were prone to make up stories like this, I would think he would have begun doing so a decade ago, rather than waiting till now. So, I think he is sincere in believing that this General Authority has lost his faith as well.

My Take So Far,

Don

My memory is unclear since it's been since his book first came out that I read up on it, but didn't he kind of make up stories about himself in regards to his own standing in the Church? Inflated his credentials so to speak?

Plus I understand that there is debate about how honest he was about his beliefs and actions with his employers over the years.

If so, he may be totally sincere, but he may also have the tendency to like a good story better than the reality of his life.

[DonBradley]

In a panel discussion at the exmormon conference Grant also claimed that he has a cousin working on the JSP and this cousin told him that his co-workers on the project are leaving out embarrassing information about Joseph Smith and church history because they do not want this information published in the JSPs. Is this true? Or is it a story?

It is complete bull crap. Having spent half a year at the Joseph Smith Papers quite recently I can tell you that the scholars working on the project are concerned with doing the best scholarship possible. It is not a devotional project at all, and I never once heard anyone hint at leaving things out. To the contrary, they hope to get as much as possible into the volumes.

If Grant thinks otherwise, he has misunderstood his source--badly.

Don

[why me]

It is complete bull crap. Having spent half a year at the Joseph Smith Papers quite recently I can tell you that the scholars working on the project are concerned with doing the best scholarship possible. It is not a devotional project at all, and I never once heard anyone hint at leaving things out. To the contrary, they hope to get as much as possible into the volumes.

If Grant thinks otherwise, he has misunderstood his source--badly.

Don

And that is my point. Now that you mentioned that it is crap I will now put the link here where he said it on a panel discussion for the exmormon conference. Listen to the first 7 minutes:

[thesometimesaint]

Nah, my kids are 8 and 11 and they watch Scooby Doo weekly, and that quote is still used at the end of every episode. There is hope yet!

I've got Grand-kids that age. Does that count?

[Calm]

And that is my point. Now that you mentioned that it is crap I will now put the link here where he said it on a panel discussion for the exmormon conference. Listen to the first 7 minutes:

How does he think with the digital copies of the documents available to look at themselves that they could get away with leaving stuff out.

And it seems unlikely to me that they are relying on only one person's transcribing as the official transcription rather than going back and doublechecking etc. Plus when they were laughing at the count of only 20 volumes, they are again ignoring what is going to be available digitally.

The Joseph Smith Papers Project is not a “documentary history” project comprising all important documents relating to Joseph Smith. Instead, it is a “papers” project that will publish, according to accepted documentary editing standards, documents created by Joseph Smith or by staff whose work he directed, including journals, revelations and translations, contemporary reports of discourses, minutes, business and legal records, editorials, and notices. The project also includes papers received and “owned” by his office, such as incoming correspondence.

The Joseph Smith Papers Project is a comprehensive edition, meaning it will include all known and available documents meeting the project’s criteria as Joseph Smith documents. While selective editions may exclude some documents because they are of less interest or importance, comprehensive editions such as this one make no such exclusions. All Joseph Smith documents, even routine ones such as certificates, will be published on this website, and many documents will be published in print volumes. It is expected that roughly twenty print volumes will be published, at a rate of about two per year.

Because the Joseph Smith Papers Project meets the requisite scholarly and documentary editing criteria, it has earned an endorsement by the National Archives’ National Historical Publications and Records Commission(NHPRC). To ensure accuracy of the texts, project editors undertake three independent levels of text verification for each manuscript, including a final verification against the original.

http://josephsmithpa...aboutTheProject

Doesn't sound like Palmer has even bothered to find out what the JSP does involved and instead is just comparing what gossip he's heard to what he thinks it should involve.

Edited April 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[why me]

How does he think with the digital copies of the documents available to look at themselves that they could get away with leaving stuff out.

And it seems unlikely to me that they are relying on only one person's transcribing as the official transcription rather than going back and doublechecking etc. Plus when they were laughing at the count of only 20 volumes, they are again ignoring what is going to be available digitally.

http://josephsmithpa...aboutTheProject

I am going to be a little bit judgmental now. Listening to the panel discussion, I saw people not in a good place personally. Maybe they were all just tired. But listening to them grasping at straws was rather difficult and painful. And now that Grant has shown that his cousin may be just a story, if Don is correct, is rather pitiful. Watching him on the panel has made me feel a little sorry for him. But he certainly wishes the church harm, unfortunately.

[Calm]

I am going to be a little bit judgmental now. Listening to the panel discussion, I saw people not in a good place personally. Maybe they were all just tired. But listening to them grasping at straws was rather difficult and painful. And now that Grant has shown that his cousin may be just a story, if Don is correct, is rather pitiful. Watching him on the panel has made me feel a little sorry for him. But he certainly wishes the church harm, unfortunately.

They sounded pleased that allegedly relevant stuff would be left out so that he could condemn the Church as history deniers or whatever it was that he said with such satisfaction...or so it seemed to me.

[bcuzbcuz]

I am sure. Grant wrote this piece. The story is not very new. In this video clip from his talk at the Exmormon Foundation you can hear the story from Palmer himself.

[media=]

Thank you. Grant Palmer certainly covers a lot of interesting material, but d**n is he ever boring! as a speaker.

[why me]

They sounded pleased that allegedly relevant stuff would be left out so that he could condemn the Church as history deniers or whatever it was that he said with such satisfaction...or so it seemed to me.

They were pleased. But if you think about it, doesn't an exmormon also need to have their exmormon testimonies confirmed? I think that this is where Grant is coming from: to shore up their testimonies.

Edited April 9, 2013 by why me

[Hamba Tuhan]

How does he think with the digital copies of the documents available to look at themselves that they could get away with leaving stuff out.

Doesn't sound like Palmer has even bothered to find out what the JSP does involved and instead is just comparing what gossip he's heard to what he thinks it should involve.

And this is the man people claim finally provided them the 'true history' of 'Mormonism'. Indeed.

[Duncan]

An emeritus GA perhaps? Somebody who is getting so far along in years that he's suffering dimentia?

That has a tiny grain of plausibility. But even that's a stretch almost to the breaking point..

This may be the end for Palmer. It's so far over the top, even his stalwart supporters -- like Dehlin -- may find they can no longer hang with him.

that is a possibility! I know of two have since passed away that had some form of dimentia or something like that anyways. An emeritus GA is on the table! Hmmm, now that Palmer is saying that this GA visits his home, we should hire Jim Rockford to investigate! haha!

[escott3564]

A well-connected (but non-General-Authority) friend makes some good points in a note to me:

I believe this is pure fiction. Anyone who has interacted with the apostles or other general authorities will not find any of this that rings true and will see it as utter nonsense. For example, to say that the 12 are isolated from the 70 is so completely detached from reality as to be laughable. The 12 nearly always travel with at least one 70 on every assignment. The day to day affairs of the Church are conducted in close, daily collaboration with and between the 12 and the 70. If anything, the 12 likely spend much more time with members of the 1^st and 2^nd quorums of the 70 than they do with each other. To make the claim that men like Dallin Oaks, Jeff Holland, David Bednar, Todd Christofferson and all the others who, independent of their Church assignments, are held in high esteem in their professions outside of the Church could be bought off and then spend their lives living a lie is utterly ridiculous. Also, what general authority could possibly see Grant Palmer as a legitimate scholar? Palmer is delusional and self-serving. For me this is additional evidence that he is a man without integrity who must find a way to constantly stir the pot of dissent in order to sell his book and keep his name in public view.

This is certainly consistent with my experience with the General Authorities. Members of the First Quorum of the Seventy are constantly meeting with members of the Twelve. I can't count the number of committee meetings I've had with members of the Twelve in which one or more members of the Seventy have also been present. The notion that there's very little contact between the two quorums is simply silly. Completely false.

I also concur that this is completely false. My father in law was a member of the 7th Quorum of the 70 as a Regional Representative before he was called as a Mission President. While in this quorum, they had quite a few meetings and training sessions with members of the quorum of the 12. So, again, this is a complete falsehood.

[KevinG]

Poor Grant - his 15 minutes of press coverage during General Conference has been knocked below the fold.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/i-quit-joel-osteen-target-of-elaborate-hoax/

[Tacenda]

http://stevebloor.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints/

I saw this on NOM, don't know how significant it is, but on my way to work, so can't read all of it.

[mfbukowski]

This story is so ridiculous. The 12 Apostles all being bought for 1 million dollars? This is so preposterous, it reminds me of:

For most successful people, a million is not enough to retire on today. Think about it- most of these guys are successful, accomplished individuals used to incomes over 100k per year.

That gives them 10 years income.

Big whoop.

A million is no longer what it once was cracked up to be. We are so conditioned to thinking that "Millionaires" are rolling in money- but the fact is that today for a professional, it's not much. Think about it. You retire at what- 65 and you run out of money at 75. Obviously you are going to invest it- but how much will be left over after market drops, etc? Where do you get a safe return of 10% a year to give you the 100k income per year you are used to??

[mfbukowski]

This Palmer story really knocks me for a loop, and I think the Church needs to respond.

I've started a petition demanding that the members of the First Presidency and Q12 publicly stand and tell us exactly what they do and don't believe. Not just once, but repeatedly. At least twice a year should do it. Please join me and we can make them publicly take a stand after all these years.

They should also put something in writing too.

Uh, the problem is obviously that if they HAVE been compromised (an absurd suggestion) of course they would just lie about it- as they supposedly do daily anyway.