The Latest From Grant Palmer

[Questing Beast]

For what little it's worth:

I've met and interacted with all of the Twelve and the First Presidency -- with some, of course, more than others. (I chatted with one of them on Saturday between conference sessions.) I've been in the homes of two of them (most recently, on Saturday). I served on a committee chaired by then-Elder Uchtdorf; I knew Elder Maxwell fairly well. I've spoken on programs on both American coasts and in England with Elders Maxwell and Holland. I've known Elder Holland since well before he was even a Seventy. I don't want to exaggerate: I don't pal around with them every Saturday, but at least two of them call me by my first name. (Elder Maxwell always did.) I've spent some time, at least, with Elder Maxwell's widow and one of the most senior current apostles' wives, and I know several apostles' children pretty well.

I'm not saying this to boast.

I'm just saying that, if these men are/were unbelievers, I'm a leprechaun. In their private conversations and in their families as in their public statements, they come across as utterly sincere and completely faithful.

.

Now that I can believe....

[mfbukowski]

Hi why me,

I agree. If/when it is shown that this story is incorrect -- or grossly misreported -- Grant will lose credibility.

What I want to know is what would motivate him to share this story, even if true? Does he not want to continue meeting with his GA/MP friends? If so, posting this story will certainly put and end to it.

Truly bizarre. I honestly don't know what to make of it.

seth

Absolutely! On so many levels it just doesn't make sense!

[KevinG]

http://stevebloor.wo...ter-day-saints/

I saw this on NOM, don't know how significant it is, but on my way to work, so can't read all of it.

One man's faith shattering revelation is another man's recycled slander. I'd say you have to be pretty jaded to see an attempt to lovingly reach out and correct the record as a conspiracy of a desperate church hierarchy. But that's just me.

[mfbukowski]

Palmer may be losing it. These kind of stories are one of the first signs of dementia. The stories often sort-of make some sense, but are "way out there".

I recall a neighbor lady who accused another neighbor of stealing her spoon collection- totally out of the blue. Of course it proved to be untrue, but there was just a glimmer of possibility that it might have been true, in some slightly skewed universe, that some actually believed that someone would even WANT the spoon collection and then actually steal it- under conditions which really made no sense either.

This story just has the same kind of feel as that one did. It has just the right mix of paranoia and oddness and results in Palmer's own self- aggrandizement - it just really has that "going loco" feel of it to me.

If someone down the street told me this story- I would write it off instantly as just that. Yet for some reason we actually discuss this- why? because the guy is a famous anti-Mormon?

Let's pretend this famous anti-Mormon is an old guy who lives down the street who told you the story while watering his lawn.

Somehow, for me, that changes the whole dynamic.

Edited April 9, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

Palmer may be losing it. These kind of stories are one of the first signs of dementia. The stories often sort-of make some sense, but are "way out there".

I recall a neighbor lady who accused another neighbor of stealing her spoon collection- totally out of the blue. Of course it proved to be untrue, but there was just a glimmer of possibility that it might have been true, in some slightly skewed universe, that some actually believed that someone would even WANT the spoon collection and then actually steal it- under conditions which really made no sense either.

This story just has the same kind of feel as that one did. It has just the right mix of paranoia and oddness and results in Palmer's own self- aggrandizement - it just really has that "going loco" feel of it to me.

I'm getting the same feel.

I watched part of the Ex-Mormons Conference video. I'm getting the impression Palmer's story is growing with the telling, that if he doesn't get the public response he seeks, he makes it yet more sensational.

[William Schryver]

A well-connected (but non-General-Authority) friend makes some good points in a note to me:

I believe this is pure fiction. Anyone who has interacted with the apostles or other general authorities will not find any of this that rings true and will see it as utter nonsense. For example, to say that the 12 are isolated from the 70 is so completely detached from reality as to be laughable. The 12 nearly always travel with at least one 70 on every assignment. The day to day affairs of the Church are conducted in close, daily collaboration with and between the 12 and the 70. If anything, the 12 likely spend much more time with members of the 1^st and 2^nd quorums of the 70 than they do with each other. To make the claim that men like Dallin Oaks, Jeff Holland, David Bednar, Todd Christofferson and all the others who, independent of their Church assignments, are held in high esteem in their professions outside of the Church could be bought off and then spend their lives living a lie is utterly ridiculous. Also, what general authority could possibly see Grant Palmer as a legitimate scholar? Palmer is delusional and self-serving. For me this is additional evidence that he is a man without integrity who must find a way to constantly stir the pot of dissent in order to sell his book and keep his name in public view.

This is certainly consistent with my experience with the General Authorities. Members of the First Quorum of the Seventy are constantly meeting with members of the Twelve. I can't count the number of committee meetings I've had with members of the Twelve in which one or more members of the Seventy have also been present. The notion that there's very little contact between the two quorums is simply silly. Completely false.

I've spent the past couple weeks working 12 hour days, 6 or 7 days out of the week, so I'm slow on the uptake and have just barely discovered this story that has apparently been making the rounds.

My reaction? Well, I have actually expected for some time that a general authority or two (most likely at the level of the Seventy) would, as have many others in the Church in our day, fall into disbelief and apostasy. For that reason, I don't find that aspect of Palmer's tale particularly incredible.

There is a "great division" taking place among the Saints, and I fully expect that the scope of this division does or will extend into the ranks of church leadership. Sooner or later, I expect that a general authority at some level will very publicly apostatize. Perhaps it will be this alleged member of the First Quorum of the Seventy to whom Palmer refers in his story. If not him, then someone else. There is no reason to assume the general authorities are immune to the forces of faithlessness at work in our world. After all, we need to remember that even Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Sidney Rigdon fell away, despite having been recipients of great witnesses of the truthfulness of the calling of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. So, again, no one is immune from apostasy--even those who have received powerful testimonies of the truthfulness of the restored gospel.

As for the suggestions that each and every member of the Quorum of the Twelve is actually a non-believer, and that they keep silent merely because they have been "bought off" or because of some other sense of obligation or perceived hold on them ... well, I consider that to be utterly ridiculous.

Even so, were the entire Quorum of the Twelve to come out tomorrow and claim that Mormonism is nothing but a big lie, etc., there are others whose faith and testimony would qualify them to take the places of the fallen. Many others. In fact, this is the reality that, apparently, is lost on Palmer and his fellow apostates: the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are not, by any means, the only ones upon whom God has bestowed a "sure knowledge" of the divinity of the restored gospel. There are many thousands of the Saints who possess as certain a testimony of the truth as any prophet or apostle that ever lived. So, while I do not believe Palmer's story for a minute, I do know that, were the entire body of the general authorities to apostatize tomorrow, there would be enough faith remaining in the church for the Lord to fill every position vacated by the fallen.

[mfbukowski]

Even so, were the entire Quorum of the Twelve to come out tomorrow and claim that Mormonism is nothing but a big lie, etc., there are others whose faith and testimony would qualify them to take the places of the fallen. Many others. In fact, this is the reality that, apparently, is lost on Palmer and his fellow apostates: the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are not, by any means, the only ones upon whom God has bestowed a "sure knowledge" of the divinity of the restored gospel. There are many thousands of the Saints who possess as certain a testimony of the truth as any prophet or apostle that ever lived. So, while I do not believe Palmer's story for a minute, I do know that, were the entire body of the general authorities to apostatize tomorrow, there would be enough faith remaining in the church for the Lord to fill every position vacated by the fallen.

Exactly, precisely, right on the money!

[why me]

I'm getting the same feel.

I watched part of the Ex-Mormons Conference video. I'm getting the impression Palmer's story is growing with the telling, that if he doesn't get the public response he seeks, he makes it yet more sensational.

That was my take on it too. But he also claimed that he has a cousin working on the JSP and how this cousin told him that some of the people working on the papers are leaving out embarrassing information. But Don Bradley has negated Grant story from his own personal experience working on the Papers. It doesn't look good for Grant.

[Mike Reed]

I agree that what palmer says is hard to believe. And yet... It is also hard to believe that he would risk all credability by making this stuff up. I don't know.... Maybe the truth is to be found somewhere between the two extremes and that the alleged disaffected seventy was exagerating/guessing, and that this was further problematized by Palmer's mental filter.

[wenglund]

Grant is taking a huge risk here. If he is lying his reputation will be gone completely.

There was a time when lying would invariably affect one's reputation. Nowadays, though, it seems that people can tell the biggest whoppers, and as long as the whoppers reinforce certain popular beliefs, it will be believed, and if the whoppers are then shown undeniably to be false, the response will be something along the lines of "what does matter?". Ironically, many who respond this way style themselves as seekers of truth. Such is the world we live in.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

For most successful people, a million is not enough to retire on today. Think about it- most of these guys are successful, accomplished individuals used to incomes over 100k per year.

That gives them 10 years income.

Big whoop.

A million is no longer what it once was cracked up to be. We are so conditioned to thinking that "Millionaires" are rolling in money- but the fact is that today for a professional, it's not much. Think about it. You retire at what- 65 and you run out of money at 75. Obviously you are going to invest it- but how much will be left over after market drops, etc? Where do you get a safe return of 10% a year to give you the 100k income per year you are used to??

Believe me a million dollars is still a lot of money. But once your willing to be bought the rest is just price negotiating. I don't believe any Apostle or 70 is willing to be bought.

[why me]

Believe me a million dollars is still a lot of money. But once your willing to be bought the rest is just price negotiating. I don't believe any Apostle or 70 is willing to be bought.

And what happens when the million runs out? Remain silent? I would hit them up for another million to remain silent. It would never end. Not to mention the wonderful book deal that would rake in a few million more. Imagine if 8 of the 12 who Palmer says doesn't believe would get together and tell all. The church would fall like a house of cards, especially with proof.

[cinepro]

And what happens when the million runs out? Remain silent? I would hit them up for another million to remain silent. It would never end. Not to mention the wonderful book deal that would rake in a few million more. Imagine if 8 of the 12 who Palmer says doesn't believe would get together and tell all. The church would fall like a house of cards, especially with proof.

Edited April 9, 2013 by cinepro

[DonBradley]

I agree that Dan is not a leprechaun--or if he is, he is a very sneaky one. And I would add that based on my extensive research into LDS history, having often looked at private documents, including journals, of 19th and 20th century apostles and First Presidency members, it is simply impossible for me to believe that they have not consistently been sincere in their faith.

Don

[KevinG]

...and just how much are you being paid to keep the conspiracy quiet Don?

Should we expect a high calling in your future?

[Damien the Leper]

...and just how much are you being paid to keep the conspiracy quiet Don?

Should we expect a high calling in your future?

A new quorumn will be added: Prophet over the the First Presidency. There will now technically be 16 Apostles...

[sethpayne]

Should we expect a high calling in your future?

Obviously this wasn't released in conference but I have gained permission to share this information now.

Don, Mike Reed, Chris Smith, Blair Hodges, Bill Hamblin and I were called to serve in the newly re-formed "Council of 50." Each of us were given $150 to settle our financial affairs (well, Blair got more to buy razors and shaving cream) as well as an unlimited supply of 10% off coupons at Chuck-o-Rama (where many of our meetings will be held, apparently). We have yet to meet the other members of the Council but I've heard it will happen at some point this summer. Most likely at the annual Sunstone symposium.

Rumor has it that the same call was extended to others here (Dan Peterson??) on the board but terms could not be reached on the Chuck-o-Rama discount.

Seth

Edited April 9, 2013 by sethpayne

[KevinG]

Ah Chuck-o-rama. Perhaps the most ill considered buffet name ever. Good memories of Provo!

[ERayR]

Obviously this wasn't released in conference but I have gained permission to share this information now.

Don, Mike Reed, Chris Smith, Blair Hodges, Bill Hamblin and I were called to serve in the newly re-formed "Council of 50." Each of us were given $150 to settle our financial affairs (well, Blair got more to buy razors and shaving cream) as well as an unlimited supply of 10% off coupons at Chuck-o-Rama (where many of our meetings will be held, apparently). We have yet to meet the other members of the Council but I've heard it will happen at some point this summer. Most likely at the annual Sunstone symposium.

Rumor has it that the same call was extended to others here (Dan Peterson??) on the board but terms could not be reached on the Chuck-o-Rama discount.

Seth

I'm not supposed to tell anyone but I have been called to the internal affairs division of the Council of 50. It bothers me a little that I was only given $50 to settle my affairs. I'm thinking I will use the kindly grandfather guise.

[KevinG]

I'm not supposed to tell anyone but I have been called to the internal affairs division of the Council of 50. It bothers me a little that I was only given $50 to settle my affairs. I'm thinking I will use the kindly grandfather guise.

Don't complain - in my calling there is an annual fee to attend Scout Camp.

[Scott Lloyd]

I imagine it's like MLM. At some point you run out of hit men to replenish your downline. Then you have to pay off the last hit man.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

Don't complain - in my calling there is an annual fee to attend Scout Camp.

Ah yes the good old days for me. i am no longer able to keep up with them any more. Enjoy it fades soon enough.

[sethpayne]

I imagine it's like MLM. At some point you run out of hit men to replenish your downline.

Scott,

I am a bit disturbed that you know what a "downline" actually is. MLM missionaries have obviously darkened your doorstep.

Seth

[ERayR]

Scott,

I am a bit disturbed that you know what a "downline" actually is. MLM missionaries have obviously darkened your doorstep.

Seth

Haven't they been to every doorstep, at least twice?

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott,

I am a bit disturbed that you know what a "downline" actually is. MLM missionaries have obviously darkened your doorstep.

Seth

With the way they try to exploit friendships and family relationships, is there anybody on the planet who hasn't at some point been impacted by MLM?