The Latest From Grant Palmer

[mfbukowski]

the act of engaging in intelligent and interesting conversation purely for the enjoyment of your own greatness and individuality. Subjects range from obscure lp's to cultural movements in preindustrial societies. Either delivered through grand monlogues or subtle conversation orientation, it links large words and random references resulting in nothing acually being communicated.

Oh, I see now- "scholarship"- why didn't someone just say so?

[canard78]

I've known Bruce Porter since we were freshmen together at BYU -- long before he was called to the Seventy -- and we've remained friends ever since. If he's a secret doubter, he, not Daniel Day-Lewis, deserves this year's Oscar for Best Actor.

Exactly. And if the 15 are doing the same then we have some of the best actors for a generation.

There are aspects to the church history and foundation that I continue to be uncertain about. I simply avoid testifying of them for the time being and instead focus on other things if discussing the blessings and doctrines of the gospel. It simply sticks in my throat if I try to say something that I don't fully believe. If these men have gone beyond 'uncertainty' and now know for certain that it's bogus and can still testify with the conviction and sincerity that pours through the TV screen (I can only imagine what it is face to face), then they are more talented than we can imagine.

[why me]

If these men have gone beyond 'uncertainty' and now know for certain that it's bogus and can still testify with the conviction and sincerity that pours through the TV screen (I can only imagine what it is face to face), then they are more talented than we can imagine.

And yet, this is what the critics claim: that the general authorities are doing which of course would mean that they are sociopaths or psychopaths. And yet, they also claim the same for the 11 witnesses who never denied their spiritual experience with the book of mormon.

[cinepro]

The silly (and ironic?) part of all this is that it simply fails the test of "Occam's Razor". Which is the simpler explanation for all the data? The idea that a majority of apostles "know" the Church isn't true but maintain a cover up, or that they do what they do (and say what they say) because they believe it?

I've known Bruce Porter since we were freshmen together at BYU -- long before he was called to the Seventy -- and we've remained friends ever since. If he's a secret doubter, he, not Daniel Day-Lewis, deserves this year's Oscar for Best Actor.

Well, since his acting would have been done on television, he would only be up for an Emmy.

Edited April 14, 2013 by cinepro

[DonBradley]

The silly (and ironic?) part of all this is that it simply fails the test of "Occam's Razor". Which is the simpler explanation for all the data? The idea that a majority of apostles "know" the Church isn't true but maintain a cover up, or that they do what they do (and say what they say) because they believe it?

Nicely put, Cinepro.

Don

[webbles]

The silly (and ironic?) part of all this is that it simply fails the test of "Occam's Razor". Which is the simpler explanation for all the data? The idea that a majority of apostles "know" the Church isn't true but maintain a cover up, or that they do what they do (and say what they say) because they believe it?

Over on Jeff Lindsay's blog (the one jwhitlock linked to in #292), a commentator actually said that it meets the Occam's Razor. Strange world we live in.

[ERayR]

Are you all sure they got the story right from Palmer? It sounds more like an alien contact story.

[mfbukowski]

The silly (and ironic?) part of all this is that it simply fails the test of "Occam's Razor".

When has that bothered us before?

[cdowis]

I think the proof is Sun afternoon talk by Elder Holland on "Belief".

Now, with the advantage that nearly 60 years give me since I was a newly believing 14-year-old, I declare some things I now know. I know that God is at all times and in all ways and in all circumstances our loving, forgiving Father in Heaven. I know Jesus was His only perfect child, whose life was given lovingly by the will of both the Father and the Son for the redemption of all the rest of us who are not perfect. I know He rose from that death to live again, and because He did, you and I will also. I know that Joseph Smith, who acknowledged that he wasn’t perfect,¹⁵ was nevertheless the chosen instrument in God’s hand to restore the everlasting gospel to the earth. I also know that in doing so—particularly through translating the Book of Mormon—he has taught me more of God’s love, of Christ’s divinity, and of priesthood power than any other prophet of whom I have ever read, known, or heard in a lifetime of seeking. I know that President Thomas S. Monson, who moves devotedly and buoyantly toward the 50th anniversary of his ordination as an Apostle, is the rightful successor to that prophetic mantle today. We have seen that mantle upon him again in this conference. I know that 14 other men whom you sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators sustain him with their hands, their hearts, and their own apostolic keys.

These things I declare to you with the conviction Peter called the “more sure word of prophecy.”What was once a tiny seed of belief for me has grown into the tree of life, so if your faith is a little tested in this or any season, I invite you to lean on mine. I know this work is God’s very truth, and I know that only at our peril would we allow doubt or devils to sway us from its path. Hope on. Journey on. Honestly acknowledge your questions and your concerns, but first and forever fan the flame of your faith, because all things are possible to them that believe. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Edited April 15, 2013 by cdowis

[mrmendoza]

I am sure. Grant wrote this piece. The story is not very new. In this video clip from his talk at the Exmormon Foundation you can hear the story from Palmer himself.

[media=]

Hi, everyone. I'm sure most of you don't remember me. I pretty much stoped posting on the board because I was just tired of going in circles with all the antis! That and I know I'm not as educated or as articulate as most of you out there. But having listened to Palmers disertation for about ten minutes, I just couldn't take it anymore. So, while admiting that I didn't hear all of it, I can say this. That some of what I heard him say about the

treasure hunters

with whom Joseph Smith was aquainted with, in such a way as to make it seem shocking, is really unreal! I'll say here what I've said so many times in the past when people start telling about how faithful and true they had been untill they learned that J.S. was not already perfect when he had his first vision. Most of the information that they are so shocked and disapointed about has always been out there. The fact that the Church doesn't go into every detail about everything is not proof of a cover-up, or a conspirecy to decieve! The message of the Church is the restoration of the True Church, the restoration of the true Priesthood of God and the authorityto act in His name!.The restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! And the ordenences whereby we can be saved, and be insturmental in the salvation of the dead! If some of the historical details get left out, or even a little muddeld it doesnt mean everything else is false!

We should not be as the inerrist who believe that any possible mistake negates eternal truths. Mr palmer seems to have an inflated idea of his own importence. He may no longer believe, and saddly he may be instrumental in weakening the faith of others, for which he will someday have to answer to the Lord, but the Church will go on.

[Robert F. Smith]

Tramper, on 08 April 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

I am sure. Grant wrote this piece. The story is not very new. In this video clip from his talk at the Exmormon Foundation you can hear the story from Palmer himself.

Hi, everyone. I'm sure most of you don't remember me. I pretty much stoped posting on the board because I was just tired of going in circles with all the antis! That and I know I'm not as educated or as articulate as most of you out there. But having listened to Palmers disertation for about ten minutes, I just couldn't take it anymore. So, while admiting that I didn't hear all of it, I can say this. That some of what I heard him say about the with whom Joseph Smith was aquainted with, in such a way as to make it seem shocking, is really unreal!

---------------------------

I listened to all of it, and was not much impressed with Palmer's deliberate falsification of the work of FARMS, as well as his confusion of FARMS with FAIR.

He stated that the historical research and negative conclusions he reached were "not rocket science," but "easy," something I frequently hear from yokels who don't take scholarly historiography seriously.

If you want an evenhanded appraisal of what is known about Joseph Smith and LDS Church history, Palmer is the least likely to give you an honest view. A serious non-Mormon such as Jan Shipps is far more likely to provide a fair-minded assessment, warts and all.

[sethpayne]

It is crude and unbecoming. But everyone has a choice.

Your avatar is macabre and disturbing. But everyone has a choice.

Edited April 15, 2013 by sethpayne

[volgadon]

I find your avatar macabre and disturbing. But everyone has a choice.

Blake, I feel, would tend to agree with you.

[CASteinman]

Your avatar is macabre and disturbing. But everyone has a choice.

Sorry it bugs you.

I used to think it was a death mask but I have found that it is a life mask. Do you find all masks like this upset you or is it just this one?

ETA:

There used to be a great website that had masks of all kinds of people, particularly contemporary people -- artists, actors, politicians, etc. That is where I originally saw this image. Unfortunately the website has been down for a few years.

I found it fascinating to see the faces of some of the modern actresses known for their beauty. The masks, of course, have no color or makeup. They produce a very unadorned face. It was a bit surprising to see, for example, how manly Nicole Kidman looked. And I was surprised to see that the most feminine face, even with a bent nose, was Cameron Diaz. Unlike most people -- her lips form a natural smile.

Edited April 15, 2013 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Blake, I feel, would tend to agree with you.

Hmmm.. Why do you think he would tend to agree?

Edited April 15, 2013 by CASteinman

[Stargazer]

Sorry it bugs you.

I used to think it was a death mask but I have found that it is a life mask. Do you find all masks like this upset you or is it just this one?

ETA:

There used to be a great website that had masks of all kinds of people, particularly contemporary people -- artists, actors, politicians, etc. That is where I originally saw this image. Unfortunately the website has been down for a few years.

I found it fascinating to see the faces of some of the modern actresses known for their beauty. The masks, of course, have no color or makeup. They produce a very unadorned face. It was a bit surprising to see, for example, how manly Nicole Kidman looked. And I was surprised to see that the most feminine face, even with a bent nose, was Cameron Diaz. Unlike most people -- her lips form a natural smile.

Darn. And all this time I thought it was your portrait.

[CASteinman]

Darn. And all this time I thought it was your portrait.

I'm not that good lookin'!

[USU78]

I'm not that good lookin'!

Too bad . . . I thought it looked like a young Winston Churchill.

[Tacenda]

I think if the leaders thought the church was false they would be afraid of putting it out there for fear of the suicides that could occur. There is alot of sacrifice for some in the church and who knows what that entails, they just might end it (their life) or come after someone in the church. If the leaders feel it might be untrue they probably feel there's also a chance it is true, so why rock the boat. The church could slowly go mainstream one day too, and so like the rest of the Christian churches out there. But the temples would need to be used for something, maybe a place for solitude or peace. But IMO, none of this will ever take place in the church. Just not gonna happen.

[cdowis]

Interesting insight. The church would probably go mainstream if the leaders lost faith in it.

But the opposite is going, especially with the expansion of missionary work.

[why me]

I think if the leaders thought the church was false they would be afraid of putting it out there for fear of the suicides that could occur. There is alot of sacrifice for some in the church and who knows what that entails, they just might end it (their life) or come after someone in the church. If the leaders feel it might be untrue they probably feel there's also a chance it is true, so why rock the boat. The church could slowly go mainstream one day too, and so like the rest of the Christian churches out there.

Eventually, the truth would come out and would have been in vain. Such a falsehood could not be kept secret for long. An new apostle is called, is given the lowdown, and bolts for the door. The game is up. Most people could not be able to live such a lie and be in the mix, giving talks, testimonies, spending time away from home...keeping the secret away from the wife and children who still believe the lie and away from the grandkids. Sounds impossible. .

[Robert F. Smith]

Eventually, the truth would come out and would have been in vain. Such a falsehood could not be kept secret for long. An new apostle is called, is given the lowdown, and bolts for the door. The game is up. Most people could not be able to live such a lie and be in the mix, giving talks, testimonies, spending time away from home...keeping the secret away from the wife and children who still believe the lie and away from the grandkids. Sounds impossible. .

Tacenda does have a point, and we have seen something like this occur within the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ).

Just for perspective, though, might we want to consider a similar question about the Roman Catholic Church? Has anyone asserted that the Pope and members of his curia know the Catholic Church is a fraud and are merely going through the motions for the sake of tradition? Or for the sake of their chosen vocation?

[Freedom]

The apostles are special witnesses of Christ. They would know the church was false before they were even called to the pulpit because they would not receive this very special and sacred witness that is required before they can be called as an apostle. This whole discussion is a silly academic exercise.

[why me]

Not if someone is not a member of the lds church. They would not believe your explanation because they would not see them as true apostles of christ. And this is the point behind Palmer: they are all fraudsters. I believe that Palmer is attempting to nudge at the faith of the lds church by claiming that the church is false and the apostles believe none of the truth claims.

Edited April 16, 2013 by why me

[why me]

Tacenda does have a point, and we have seen something like this occur within the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ).

Just for perspective, though, might we want to consider a similar question about the Roman Catholic Church? Has anyone asserted that the Pope and members of his curia know the Catholic Church is a fraud and are merely going through the motions for the sake of tradition? Or for the sake of their chosen vocation?

I haven't heard such claims. I believe that the pope and the cardinals believe in their faith. Now do they doubt once in a while? Probably. But I see no claims from others that they are just going through the motions. I think that within the lds faith, the critics paint the apostles and the witnesses as psychopaths or sociopaths....people that have no feelings for other human beings. And this is what they would need to be if they knew that the church was false and yet, continued on with the charade. And when I write know that church is false, I mean know based on good evidence.