The Latest From Grant Palmer

[Hamba Tuhan]

We're not talking about the early Christians, it is the integrity of the LDS that would be at stake, and its claims to truth seriously harmed.

Do you think the fact that one of the Saviour's handpicked witnesses/messengers went rogue and betrayed Him somehow harmed the truth claims of early Christianity? If not, why not?

Edited April 18, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[CASteinman]

I think it is unpleasant but nevertheless appropriate to mention that the previous two General Authorities who were excommunicated were very bitter for years. Really, in a way, dying in their bitterness. Its very sad in both cases. I don't consider myself to be better than either of them and their stories break my heart -- particularly the story of the Apostle who was released from membership.

That there would be another GA (or two or three) -- trapped in error who then became bitter -- would not be out of line with the pattern of the past -- it would be a match.

[Calm]

I think it is unpleasant but nevertheless appropriate to mention that the previous two General Authorities who were excommunicated were very bitter for years. Really, in a way, dying in their bitterness. Its very sad in both cases. I don't consider myself to be better than either of them and their stories break my heart -- particularly the story of the Apostle who was released from membership.

That there would be another GA (or two or three) -- trapped in error who then became bitter -- would not be out of line with the pattern of the past -- it would be a match.

I think it would be very hard at that level of commitment to break ties with the Church for whatever reason...a lot has been expected of one and in return one has probably come to expect a lot from the Church and its leadership, which would include many close friends in all likelihood...bitterness should be expected from such.

And if one accepts the scriptures and the Church as true, there are reasons for this bitterness happening there...though I don't think one has to even go that route to understand why.

Edited April 18, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

I think it is unpleasant but nevertheless appropriate to mention that the previous two General Authorities who were excommunicated were very bitter for years. Really, in a way, dying in their bitterness. Its very sad in both cases. I don't consider myself to be better than either of them and their stories break my heart -- particularly the story of the Apostle who was released from membership.

That there would be another GA (or two or three) -- trapped in error who then became bitter -- would not be out of line with the pattern of the past -- it would be a match.

With the number of 70 that is called 2 or 3 or even half a dozen who apostatize would not be surprising. That is not the claim. The claim is that all of the Twelve are literally in in a fraud. It is that claim that I consider evil.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think it is unpleasant but nevertheless appropriate to mention that the previous two General Authorities who were excommunicated were very bitter for years.

Whom exactly are you thinking of? Elder Lyman, the only apostle excommunicated since the end of the 19th century, was rebaptised 11 years later.

[CASteinman]

With the number of 70 that is called 2 or 3 or even half a dozen who apostatize would not be surprising. That is not the claim. The claim is that all of the Twelve are literally in in a fraud. It is that claim that I consider evil.

Oh yes, it is evil. What I am referring to is the plausibility of Palmer having discussions with such a one -- who has a darkness in him that permits or causes him to speak evil of the Lord's annointed.

It has been claimed that the the Apostles being so wicked is implausible. And I agree, it is. But there has been a leap from that implausibility to saying that Grant Palmer's story is likewise implausible. That leap is unjustified.

Palmer may be lying. But there is no excellent reason in the details of his story to think so. It can only be a suspicion -- based upon his character.

Edited April 19, 2013 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Whom exactly are you thinking of? Elder Lyman, the only apostle excommunicated since the end of the 19th century, was rebaptised 11 years later.

Bitter the whole time he was out of the Church, railing against his brethren of the 12 and never rising beyond rebaptism.

[Avatar4321]

Kind of like Stake Presidents....unless they get called to a GA position.

Members aren't called to positions for fame and glory. So that's just as it it should be. We should all be doing quiet Christ-like service. Serve when called and then when released go back to quiet service:)

[Calm]

Members aren't called to positions for fame and glory. So that's just as it it should be. We should all be doing quiet Christ-like service. Serve when called and then when released go back to quiet service:)

I agree.

The first Stake President I knew well due to him being in our ward plus his daughter being my age when he was released was put in as a Nursery Leader. He made a big joke of it....not because he had been a Stake President, but because he was the CEO of a big company.

[DBMormon]

I have pretty much avoided this thread - Can anyone update me if there has been any major developments in the OP story since the first page? serious question. I don't want to read 22 pages

[Duncan]

I have pretty much avoided this thread - Can anyone update me if there has been any major developments in the OP story since the first page? serious question. I don't want to read 22 pages

other then Palmer, seemingly, no new information as to the identity of this man

[DBMormon]

other then Palmer, seemingly, no new information as to the identity of this man

Thank You

[Duncan]

The thing too is I wonder how far back this goes with the apostles. If the current ones talk about how the Church isn't true then where that start? I can't believe Elder McConkie, Pres. McKay, Elder Talmage or Pres. Hinckley disbelieved in Christ and the Church

[Stargazer]

Precisely. The flogging was mere preparatory "overkill". That says something infinitely worse about the suffering he "really" undergoes for each of us, so that we can be spared a "flogging" and become "gods". No, thank, you, I won't be buying "godhood" with some else's suffering....

I am afraid that your are mistaken about this.

This is not a "becoming god" thing. This is a salvation thing. Salvation from the price of sin. The matter of exaltation is separate.

The scripture in D&C is where the Lord said that he endured it so that none others would have to endure, if they would be repent. The thing is, He already did it! It's done. He offers to let you go without experiencing it for yourself. It doesn't add to His suffering if you take his offer; it doesn't subtract from it if you reject it.

But if you reject his offer, then you suffer for yourself and you are then damned (that is left without eternal progression) and dwell elsewhere than where He ministers. Because you have rejected Him.

There is an element of humility in accepting His offering. There is a great pride in rejecting it. This is not something that you can say you will be self-reliant in this case, and get anywhere at all you want to get.

If you were lost at sea, floating on a raft thousands of miles from the nearest land, and a helicopter came by, would you wave it off because you were so proud because you insisted upon saving yourself, not to be beholden to someone else? That's what you are saying you want. Jesus offers you a helicopter, and you insist you can swim the distance yourself. You will not make it.

[Stargazer]

Not a game, just a question, I am not LDS, but can't imagine the damage that would be done to ordinary individuals whose whole lives are the church, devastation I think is too small a word

I have gained so much by my membership in this church that I would not be at all devastated. Disappointed perhaps, but my faith in Jesus Christ tells me that I am saved if I endure to the end.

[Stargazer]

i absolutely agree that the individual should be named, but even journalists do not have to reveal their sources, I guess he has to take that tack, but not at all satisfactory.

You don't see that you fall into the same trap as the rest of those who are heartened by Palmer's story.

You are just as highly invested in the happy news that Palmer has nailed it, that you are gleefully willing to accept any nefarious claim that comes along. In short, you don't believe in the claims of the LDS church, and so naturally anything that comes along that proves it (in your mind), you are willing to provisionally accept as true, despite the track record of the one who brings the story forward.

Who also has skin in the game. Namely a book to sell.

[why me]

With the number of 70 that is called 2 or 3 or even half a dozen who apostatize would not be surprising. That is not the claim. The claim is that all of the Twelve are literally in in a fraud. It is that claim that I consider evil.

And they Know that the church is false. No doubt at all. Just pure knowing that it is all a ruse. No matter who is right or wrong, evil is still present because someone is lying and doing harm.

Edited April 19, 2013 by why me

[ERayR]

Precisely. The flogging was mere preparatory "overkill". That says something infinitely worse about the suffering he "really" undergoes for each of us, so that we can be spared a "flogging" and become "gods". No, thank, you, I won't be buying "godhood" with some else's suffering....

Its already been done. Are you going to turn your back on such a selfless act of love?

[Avatar4321]

Not a game, just a question, I am not LDS, but can't imagine the damage that would be done to ordinary individuals whose whole lives are the church, devastation I think is too small a word

There is no need to imagine anything. It's pure nonsense. The Church is still true and more importantly Christ still lives despite people trying to take out His Church.

[Avatar4321]

Palmer is not a journalist. These are his friends apparently. Different standards.

If they exist. And I think that's a big if.

[Stargazer]

Whom exactly are you thinking of? Elder Lyman, the only apostle excommunicated since the end of the 19th century, was rebaptised 11 years later.

And he, to the best of my knowledge, made no public statements indicating any bitterness. He certainly didn't attack the church, and I don't know if he got a million, either.

George Lee, the other one excommunicated, has some bitterish issues. So what? He also did not come out and say the church wasn't true, or that it was a fraud, to the best of my knowledge.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Bitter the whole time he was out of the Church, railing against his brethren of the 12 and never rising beyond rebaptism.

Not a challenge, just a request for information: CFR. This doesn't jive with what I remember discussing in Institute.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[savedbygrace]

Do you think the fact that one of the Saviour's handpicked witnesses/messengers went rogue and betrayed Him somehow harmed the truth claims of early Christianity? If not, why not?

I don't think Judas harmed the truth of the early church at all as witnessed by its growth, but this is not about them at all. It's about a false church to begin with, and the possibility that its leaders are less than honest about its falseness, and the effects that could have on the church's followers and many probably who are doubting it right at this moment, probably following this conversation. It is not enough to cry lies, lies all the time, especially for those who are already doubting, that position is far less convincing than people who make unsubstantiated claims, like Joseph Smith for example. And nowadays there is much more evidence out there and available, especially on the net where enquiring people can go, and do, and many leave. So IMO comparing the LDS church with the original is a non starter, there is NO comparison, and if the OP is true, it will come out.

[Hamba Tuhan]

These kinds of baseless accusations, of course, are not new:

Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their heart.

And Korihor answered him, Yea.

[Hamba Tuhan]

It's about a false church to begin with, and the possibility that its leaders are less than honest about its falseness.

Most of the Jews, as you surely know, concluded that Jesus was a false prophet and the apostles were liars who conspired together to try to spread the obvious deceit that Jesus had risen from the dead.

So IMO comparing the LDS church with the original is a non starter, there is NO comparison, and if the OP is true, it will come out.

Indeed.

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan