The Latest From Grant Palmer

[canard78]

Interesting insight. The church would probably go mainstream if the leaders lost faith in it.

But the opposite is going, especially with the expansion of missionary work.

I think the question of whether the church is going more mainstream is an interesting one. Possibly not for this thread, but I would suggest there's evidence of the church going more not less mainstream.

[canard78]

The apostles are special witnesses of Christ. They would know the church was false before they were even called to the pulpit because they would not receive this very special and sacred witness that is required before they can be called as an apostle. This whole discussion is a silly academic exercise.

What "special witness" do you mean? I can guess what you mean, but wanted to check. Do you know of any current apostle who actually claims to have had this "special witness?"

[Gohan]

What "special witness" do you mean? I can guess what you mean, but wanted to check. Do you know of any current apostle who actually claims to have had this "special witness?"

I'll see if I can dig up the references...

Got it!

President Boyd K. Packer spoke of the sacred nature of an apostolic witness of Jesus Christ:

“Occasionally during the past year I have been asked a question. Usually it comes as a curious, almost an idle, question about the qualifications to stand as a witness for Christ. The question they ask is, ‘Have you seen Him?’

“That is a question that I have never asked of another. I have not asked that question of my brethren in the Quorum, thinking that it would be so sacred and so personal that one would have to have some special inspiration, indeed, some authorization, even to ask it.

“There are some things just too sacred to discuss. …

“There are those who hear testimonies borne in the Church, by those in high station and by members in the wards and branches, all using the same words—‘I know that God lives; I know that Jesus is the Christ,’ and come to question, ‘Why cannot it be said in plainer words? Why aren’t they more explicit and more descriptive? Cannot the apostles say more?’

“How like the sacred experience in the temple becomes our personal testimony. It is sacred, and when we are wont to put it into words, we say it in the same way—all using the same words. The apostles declare it in the same phrases with the little Primary or Sunday School youngster. ‘I know that God lives and I know that Jesus is the Christ.’ …

“I said there was a question that could not be taken lightly nor answered at all without the prompting of the Spirit. I have not asked that question of others, but I have heard them answer it—but not when they were asked. They have answered it under the prompting of the Spirit, on sacred occasions, when ‘the Spirit beareth record.’ (D&C 1:39.)

“I have heard one of my brethren declare: ‘I know from experiences, too sacred to relate, that Jesus is the Christ.’

“I have heard another testify: ‘I know that God lives; I know that the Lord lives. And more than that, I know the Lord.’

“It was not their words that held the meaning or the power. It was the Spirit. ‘… for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.’ (2 Ne. 33:1.)

“I speak upon this subject in humility, with the constant feeling that I am the least in every way of those who are called to this holy office. …

“Now, I wonder with you why one such as I should be called to the holy apostleship. There are so many qualifications that I lack. There is so much in my effort to serve that is wanting. As I have pondered on it, I have come to only one single thing, one qualification in which there may be cause, and that is, I have that witness.

“I declare to you that I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that he lives. He was born in the meridian of time. He taught his gospel, was tried, was crucified. He rose on the third day. He was the first fruits of the resurrection. He has a body of flesh and bone. Of this I bear testimony. Of him I am a witness” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1971, 123–25; or Ensign, June 1971, 87–88).

In a devotional when I was at the MTC, Elder Scott also spoke about it, in a way that's hard to fully express in this medium. But he testified to us that he knew that Jesus Christ personally leads the Church.

[Duncan]

I'll see if I can dig up the references...

Got it!

In a devotional when I was at the MTC, Elder Scott also spoke about it, in a way that's hard to fully express in this medium. But he testified to us that he knew that Jesus Christ personally leads the Church.

that must have been a profound experience to hear! there a lot of other apostles, now deceased, who have testified about seeing the Saviour, one of them is in my signature line thing

[canard78]

I'll see if I can dig up the references...

Got it!

In a devotional when I was at the MTC, Elder Scott also spoke about it, in a way that's hard to fully express in this medium. But he testified to us that he knew that Jesus Christ personally leads the Church.

Thanks for the reference. Out of interest, given that's now more than 40 years old, do we have anything more recent. And also anything less ambiguous?

When was the last Apostle to talk in terms like these:

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 76)

Or

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. (Book of Mormon, Ether, Ether 3)

Or

Feeling inadequate but ready to follow the Lord’s will, President Snow went to the Salt Lake Temple and prayed. In answer to his prayer, he was visited by the Lord Himself. President Snow later testified that he “actually saw the Savior … in the Temple, and talked with Him face to face.” The Lord told him to proceed immediately with the reorganization of the First Presidency, not to wait as had been done when previous Presidents of the Church had died. President Snow was sustained by the Quorum of the Twelve as President of the Church on September 13, 1898, after which he began serving as President. He was sustained by the general Church membership on October 9 and set apart as the fifth President of the Church on October 10. (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow, The Life and Ministry of Lorenzo Snow)

I know this has potential to derail the thread - it's not intended to. This relates, in a sense, to the nature of the messages of the later 20th and 21st C apostles.

I don't think for a second that the Apostles are 'inventing' their testimonies. They seem thoroughly genuine. But they rarely speak in terms of the visions of heavenly matters that the prophets of 100+ years ago.

Does this actually support their integrity, that they only testify of things they have experienced (which excludes visions and heavenly visits) or do we presume (based on no statement of fact on their behalf) that they have had visions, but choose to not speak of them to protect the church from cynics and mockery? If so, can you get any more hostile than a mob about to stone you?

54 ¶When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, (New Testament, Acts, Acts 7)

Or maybe the silence on the matter is a part of the process of mainstreaming the church?

[Stargazer]

Eventually, the truth would come out and would have been in vain. Such a falsehood could not be kept secret for long. An new apostle is called, is given the lowdown, and bolts for the door. The game is up. Most people could not be able to live such a lie and be in the mix, giving talks, testimonies, spending time away from home...keeping the secret away from the wife and children who still believe the lie and away from the grandkids. Sounds impossible. .

Well, all that aside, what I have gained from the church -- BECAUSE of all that so-called sacrifice -- has enriched me beyond all the tithing and the hours spent "on the Lord's errand." My wife has testified to me, and to others that she is what she is today BECAUSE of the Church, and without it, BOTH of us would have been smaller, much smaller.

If there is anyone in the Church who does not have that kind of take-away, then they haven't been of service, ultimately to their fellow beings, not just to God. And despite what King Benjamin said, which is still true, mind you, if you are in the service of your God in the way that that God has specified, then you cannot help but be of service to your fellow man, and ultimately to yourself as well.

It's a Win-Win-Win. They win, you win, and God wins.

Whether the church is true or not.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

The apostles are special witnesses of Christ. They would know the church was false before they were even called to the pulpit because they would not receive this very special and sacred witness that is required before they can be called as an apostle. This whole discussion is a silly academic exercise.

I was very struck by your observation, Freedom. If a member of the 12 knows that Jesus is the Christ, even as much as I know that He is the Christ, then it is indeed a silly academic exercise.

[why me]

I think the question of whether the church is going more mainstream is an interesting one. Possibly not for this thread, but I would suggest there's evidence of the church going more not less mainstream.

What evidence do you have that the church is going more mainstream? I know that it is batted around on discussion boards, but I haven't seen it in real life. What separates the lds church from the mainstream? Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham, Heavenly Parents, God of flesh and blood, Baptism for the Dead, Temples, Marriage for Eternity etc. I see no changes from this list.

Edited April 16, 2013 by why me

[Beefyrhetoric]

Thanks for the reference. Out of interest, given that's now more than 40 years old, do we have anything more recent. And also anything less ambiguous?

When was the last Apostle to talk in terms like these:

Or

Or

I know this has potential to derail the thread - it's not intended to. This relates, in a sense, to the nature of the messages of the later 20th and 21st C apostles.

I don't think for a second that the Apostles are 'inventing' their testimonies. They seem thoroughly genuine. But they rarely speak in terms of the visions of heavenly matters that the prophets of 100+ years ago.

Does this actually support their integrity, that they only testify of things they have experienced (which excludes visions and heavenly visits) or do we presume (based on no statement of fact on their behalf) that they have had visions, but choose to not speak of them to protect the church from cynics and mockery? If so, can you get any more hostile than a mob about to stone you?

Or maybe the silence on the matter is a part of the process of mainstreaming the church?

These are some of the most recent Apostles expressly stating heavenly visions that I am aware of;

Elder David B Haight - "I was shown a panoramic view of His earthly ministry: His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension. There followed scenes of His earthly ministry to my mind in impressive detail, confirming scriptural eyewitness accounts. I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things."

("The Sacrament and the Sacrifice" October 1989 General Conference; https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/10/the-sacrament-and-the-sacrifice?lang=eng)

Elder Robert D. Hales - "I also learned that I would not be left alone to meet these trials and tribulations but that guardian angels would attend me. There were some that were near angels in the form of doctors, nurses, and most of all my sweet companion, Mary. And on occasion, when the Lord so desired, I was to be comforted with visitations of heavenly hosts that brought comfort and eternal reassurances in my time of need.

("The Covenant of Baptism" October 2000 General Conference; https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-covenant-of-baptism-to-be-in-the-kingdom-and-of-the-kingdom?lang=eng)

Elder Hugh B Brown (per N. Eldon Tanner, again this one would be 40 years ago, but still interesting)- “He said it was not a vision, but the Lord appeared to him, very informal, the same as I was sitting talking to him. The Lord said, ‘You have had some difficult times in your life.’ Uncle Hugh responded, ‘Yes, and your life was more difficult than any of us have had.’ In the conversation Uncle Hugh asked when he would be finished here, and the Lord said, ‘I don’t know and I wouldn’t tell you if I did.’ Then He said, ‘Remain faithful to the end, and everything will be all right.’”

(Pp. 254–56 in Durham, G. Homer. 1982. N. Eldon Tanner: His Life and Service. Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book Company.)

So while rare, the Apostles do still share they experiences with visitations and visions of the Savior. And listening to the conviction and sincerity in these talks, I can't buy Grant's "sources" claims that they are just liars.

[canard78]

What evidence do you have that the church is going more mainstream? I know that it is batted around on discussion boards, but I haven't seen it in real life. What separates the lds church from the mainstream? Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham, Heavenly Parents, God of flesh and blood, Baptism for the Dead, Temples, Marriage for Eternity etc. I see no changes from this list.

If you wanted to start a new thread on it I'd join in. Or maybe I'll start one later if I can look up a few more references. Given it's my assertion it's probably for me to raise and then defend the statement. As mentioned, it's too much of a derail for this thread to have merit.

[canard78]

These are some of the most recent Apostles expressly stating heavenly visions that I am aware of;

Elder David B Haight - "I was shown a panoramic view of His earthly ministry: His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension. There followed scenes of His earthly ministry to my mind in impressive detail, confirming scriptural eyewitness accounts. I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things."

("The Sacrament and the Sacrifice" October 1989 General Conference; https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/10/the-sacrament-and-the-sacrifice?lang=eng)

Elder Robert D. Hales - "I also learned that I would not be left alone to meet these trials and tribulations but that guardian angels would attend me. There were some that were near angels in the form of doctors, nurses, and most of all my sweet companion, Mary. And on occasion, when the Lord so desired, I was to be comforted with visitations of heavenly hosts that brought comfort and eternal reassurances in my time of need.

("The Covenant of Baptism" October 2000 General Conference; https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-covenant-of-baptism-to-be-in-the-kingdom-and-of-the-kingdom?lang=eng)

Elder Hugh B Brown (per N. Eldon Tanner, again this one would be 40 years ago, but still interesting)- “He said it was not a vision, but the Lord appeared to him, very informal, the same as I was sitting talking to him. The Lord said, ‘You have had some difficult times in your life.’ Uncle Hugh responded, ‘Yes, and your life was more difficult than any of us have had.’ In the conversation Uncle Hugh asked when he would be finished here, and the Lord said, ‘I don’t know and I wouldn’t tell you if I did.’ Then He said, ‘Remain faithful to the end, and everything will be all right.’”

(Pp. 254–56 in Durham, G. Homer. 1982. N. Eldon Tanner: His Life and Service. Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book Company.)

So while rare, the Apostles do still share they experiences with visitations and visions of the Savior. And listening to the conviction and sincerity in these talks, I can't buy Grant's "sources" claims that they are just liars.

Thanks for the extra examples of their visionary experiences. I fully agree with your last paragraph. I was in no way saying that their lack of declaration that they'd seen the Lord was evidence for them being liars. I do not believe them to be liars.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Do we presume (based on no statement of fact on their behalf) that they have had visions, but choose to not speak of them.

Personally, I presume that the prophets have had at least as many experiences as I have ... which means this topic doesn't worry me in the least.

If a member of the 12 knows that Jesus is the Christ, even as much as I know that He is the Christ, then it is indeed a silly academic exercise.

Precisely. My faith in Christ -- and my concomitant faith in His restored Church -- is not dependent on what the apostles may or may not have seen, what they may or may not 'know'. I know certain things for myself, by means of my own experiences. At heart, this is the enduring strength of the Church ... and inevitably a source of great frustration to those who like to fantasise about its imminent demise.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

For what it may be worth:

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. (Book of Mormon, Ether, Ether 3)

'And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man' (Ether 3:21).

Feeling inadequate but ready to follow the Lord’s will, President Snow went to the Salt Lake Temple and prayed. In answer to his prayer, he was visited by the Lord Himself. President Snow later testified that he “actually saw the Savior … in the Temple, and talked with Him face to face.” The Lord told him to proceed immediately with the reorganization of the First Presidency, not to wait as had been done when previous Presidents of the Church had died. President Snow was sustained by the Quorum of the Twelve as President of the Church on September 13, 1898, after which he began serving as President. He was sustained by the general Church membership on October 9 and set apart as the fifth President of the Church on October 10. (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow, The Life and Ministry of Lorenzo Snow)

Account taken from Pres Snow's daughter, published 33 years after his death. Pres Snow did not speak of this event publicly.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[canard78]

Personally, I presume that the prophets have had at least as many experiences as I have ... which means this topic doesn't worry me in the least.

Precisely. My faith in Christ -- and my concomitant faith in His restored Church -- is not dependent on what the apostles may or may not have seen, what they may or may not 'know'. I know certain things for myself, by means of my own experiences. At heart, this is the enduring strength of the Church ... and inevitably a source of great frustration to those who like to fantasise about its imminent demise.

I'm sure they have had as many faith promoting experiences (or more) as many other members.

The point was raised elsewhere on this thread that given they are "special witnesses of Christ" (with the implication that they had seen him/been visited by him) that they couldn't consider the church a fraud. I was simply interested to know where the current crop of Apostles had made the claim to have seen him. I'm not aware that they have.

I'm not saying they haven't and I'm not saying they are a fraud. I'm simply saying they don't assert what the nature of their special witness is.

But saying that I agree that this is an unneeded tangent. We either believe the words of our apostles to be genuine and sincere (I do) whether they claim to have had been visited by Christ or not (they don't).

[Tacenda]

http://mormonheretic.org/2011/10/23/woodruffs-vision-of-the-founding-fathers/

Quote "Many of us are familiar with Wilford Woodruff’s vision of the Founding Fathers in the St. George Temple. Â Brian Stuy gives some interesting background on this story. Â Just after the temple was dedicated in 1877, apostle and temple president Wilford Woodruff had a dream on two successive nights. Â The signers of the Declaration of Independence said to Woodruff,"You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. Â We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God."

Stuy notes that Woodruff had been reading a book titled Portrait Gallery of Eminent Men and Women of Europe and America. Â Woodruff participated in proxy work for not only these famous Americans, but also Christopher Columbus and John Wesley. Â Stuy believes this book to be the source that may have inspired Woodruff to ponder on the subject.

However, Woodruff was not the first to perform proxy work for the Founding Fathers. Â Stuy quotes Charlotte Haven, writing in May 1843. Â She witnessed baptisms for the dead performed in the Mississippi River:

We drew a little nearer and heard several names repeated by the elders as the victims were douched [bathed], and you can imagine our surprise when the name George Washington was called.

Stuy goes on to say on pages 84-86,

In addition to the event Haven witnessed, there were at least three other occasions in Nauvoo when George Washington was baptized.

5

Others for whom this proxy ordinance was performed in Illinois include Benjamin Franklin;

6

Presidents John Adams, William Henry Harisson, Thomas Jefferson, and James Monroe; Â George Washington’s wife, Martha Dandridge Custis Washington; mother Mary Ball Washington; and Thomas Jefferson’s wife, Martha Wayles Jefferson.

7

Later in St. George, Woodruff would arrange to have proxy baptisms perfromed for all of these individuals.

…

Maybe, Wilford Woodruff was trying to bouy up the saints faith a little, and maybe this happens more than we think? Not saying anyone is lying though.

[Duncan]

For what it may be worth:

'And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man' (Ether 3:21).

Account taken from Pres Snow's daughter, published 33 years after his death. Pres Snow did not speak of this event publicly.

There is this account as well, shared by Pres. Snow:

I was baptized by Elder John Boynton, then one of the Twelve Apostles, June, 1836, in Kirtland, Ohio. Previous to accepting the ordinance of baptism, in my investigations of the principles taught by the Latter-day Saints, which I proved, by comparison, to be the same as those mentioned in the New Testament taught by Christ and His Apostles, I was thoroughly convinced that obedience to those principles would impart miraculous powers, manifestations and revelations. With sanguine expectations of this result, I received the baptism and ordinance of laying on of hands by one who professed to have divine authority; and, having thus yielded obedience to these ordinances, I was in constant expectation of the fulfillment of the promise of the reception of the Holy Ghost.

The manifestation did not immediately follow my baptism, as I had expected, but, although the time was deferred, when I did receive it, its realization was more perfect, tangible and miraculous than even my strongest hopes had led me to anticipate.

Some two or three weeks after I was baptized, one day while engaged in my studies, I began to reflect upon the fact that I had not obtained a knowledge of the truth of the work—that I had not realized the fulfillment of the promise ‘he that doeth my will shall know of the doctrine,’ and I began to feel very uneasy. I laid aside my books, left the house, and wandered around through the fields under the oppressive influence of a gloomy, disconsolate spirit, while an indescribable cloud of darkness seemed to envelop me. I had been accustomed, at the close of the day, to retire for secret prayer, to a grove a short distance from my lodgings, but at this time I felt no inclination to do so. The spirit of prayer had departed and the heavens seemed like brass over my head. At length, realizing that the usual time had come for secret prayer, I concluded I would not forego my evening service, and, as a matter of formality, knelt as I was in the habit of doing, and in my accustomed retired place, but not feeling as I was wont to feel.

I had no sooner opened by lips in an effort to pray, than I heard a sound, just above my head, like the rustling of silken robes, and immediately the Spirit of God descended upon me, completely enveloping my whole person, filling me, from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and O, the joy and happiness I felt! No language can describe the almost instantaneous transition from a dense cloud of mental and spiritual darkness into a refulgence of light and knowledge, as it was at that time imparted to my understanding. I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the holy Priesthood, and the fulness of the Gospel. It was a complete baptism—a tangible immersion in the heavenly principle or element, the Holy Ghost; and even more real and physical in its effects upon every part of my system than the immersion by water; dispelling forever, so long as reason and memory last, all possibility of doubt or fear in relation to the fact handed down to us historically, that the ‘Babe of Bethlehem’ is truly the Son of God; also the fact that He is now being revealed to the children of men, and communicating knowledge, the same as in the Apostolic times. I was perfectly satisfied, as well I might be, for my expectations were more than realized, I think I may safely say in an infinite degree.

I cannot tell how long I remained in the full flow of the blissful enjoyment and divine enlightenment, but it was several minutes before the celestial element which filled and surrounded me began gradually to withdraw. On arising from my kneeling posture, with my heart swelling with gratitude to God, beyond the power of expression, I felt—I knew that He had conferred on me what only an omnipotent being can confer—that which is of greater value than all the wealth and honors worlds can bestow. That night, as I retired to rest, the same wonderful manifestations were repeated, and continued to be for several successive nights. The sweet remembrance of those glorious experiences, from that time to the present, bring them fresh before me, imparting an inspiring influence which pervades my whole being, and I trust will to the close of my earthly existence.

[Pp. 7–9 in Smith, Eliza R. Snow. 1884. Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow. Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret News Company.]

[canard78]

For what it may be worth:

'And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man' (Ether 3:21).

Account taken from Pres Snow's daughter, published 33 years after his death. Pres Snow did not speak of this event publicly.

Interesting points. I guess the D&C one was a fairly public declaration though?

[Robert F. Smith]

I haven't heard such claims. I believe that the pope and the cardinals believe in their faith. Now do they doubt once in a while? Probably. But I see no claims from others that they are just going through the motions. I think that within the lds faith, the critics paint the apostles and the witnesses as psychopaths or sociopaths....people that have no feelings for other human beings. And this is what they would need to be if they knew that the church was false and yet, continued on with the charade. And when I write know that church is false, I mean know based on good evidence.

I agree, my whole point being that it is absurd to believe that the Pope and his cardinals are merely going through the motions, or that Mother Teresa was just pretending to care for the poor, etc. Such claims are easily bandied about, but less easily proven to be the case. Indeed, most people allow the sincerity of others -- until proven otherwise.

[sethpayne]

Sorry it bugs you.

I used to think it was a death mask but I have found that it is a life mask. Do you find all masks like this upset you or is it just this one?

I'm sure I am guilty of presentism but I do find death masks, in general, to be a little morbid.

In any case, I'm really just giving you a hard time. I was responding to your acerbic posting style -- something I often appreciate because it leaves absolutely no doubt as to your thoughts/opinions -- by being likewise acerbic in the form of hyperbole. I actually appreciate that you simply say what you want and what you believe, regardless of how arrogant or condescending it *may* come across. Unless I've totally misread you, I don't think you are arrogant or condescending Just incredibly blunt and willing to express your opinion. That's a good thing, IMO.

Anyway, I wouldn't personally pick a death mask as an avatar but frankly, I can never decide what a good avatar would be anyway. I think I'll go with Hello Kitty.

ETA:

There used to be a great website that had masks of all kinds of people, particularly contemporary people -- artists, actors, politicians, etc. That is where I originally saw this image. Unfortunately the website has been down for a few years.

I found it fascinating to see the faces of some of the modern actresses known for their beauty. The masks, of course, have no color or makeup. They produce a very unadorned face. It was a bit surprising to see, for example, how manly Nicole Kidman looked. And I was surprised to see that the most feminine face, even with a bent nose, was Cameron Diaz. Unlike most people -- her lips form a natural smile.

Based on your avatar I did a little googling myself and discovered more information on the practice. Interesting reading.

Anyway, I think you are a good guy, CASteinman and while we often see things quite differently, I find your observations interesting and informative.

[CASteinman]

I'm sure I am guilty of presentism but I do find death masks, in general, to be a little morbid.

I like them... mainly because I like the idea of having a really clear image of what someone may have looked like before photography. And even photography does not get it the same way. This is a life mask. I like them even better -- not just because the person is alive but because, being alive, their face is held in a manner more in keeping with how they would actually look -- not with whatever alterations death may bring.

I like this one. Because I like the forehead and the eyes. The sense of a thoughtful person with a powerful mind able to penetrate into obscure things.

I think Blake was slightly out of balance. Not because he was exactly wrong, but because he was born with some sort of disorder that gave him a power that many of us have very trivially -- he could sort of break through the veil and see things or sense things we do not sense much if at all. But he was not given revelation to restore the Truth -- and had no revelations on actual answers or directions to proceed. All he could gather was his spiritual sense of things as they might or ought to be -- and without guidance he got confused. I think that is understandable. But it led him to be weird and a living walking contradiction.

Joseph Smith had some of that but was spared the worst because he was foreordained and called to restore the truth and had actionable revelations -- not merely the parting of spiritual mists.

I am also not called to restore truth nor do I think I have a defect that makes the veil thin for me. But I aspire to that sort of mind. This image of Blake makes me think of that every time I see it.

I was responding to your acerbic posting style -- something I often appreciate because it leaves absolutely no doubt as to your thoughts/opinions -- by being likewise acerbic in the form of hyperbole. I actually appreciate that you simply say what you want and what you believe, regardless of how arrogant or condescending it *may* come across. Unless I've totally misread you, I don't think you are arrogant or condescending Just incredibly blunt and willing to express your opinion. That's a good thing, IMO.

I should probably work on appearances. I don't think I am arrogant, though that can be a subtle sin. I am pretty sure I am not condescending --- having no right to it, in any way --- do not have any sense of superiority toward anyone. But it might be arrogant to not work harder on appearances.

Anyway, I think you are a good guy, CASteinman and while we often see things quite differently, I find your observations interesting and informative.

I can't tell that we see things quite differently or not but thanks!

Edited April 16, 2013 by CASteinman

[Calm]

But it might be arrogant to not work harder on appearances.

Hmm....interesting idea to mull about.

[Questing Beast]

Elder David B Haight - "I was shown a panoramic view of His earthly ministry: His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension. There followed scenes of His earthly ministry to my mind in impressive detail, confirming scriptural eyewitness accounts. I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things."

You remember that this experience occurred when he was bent over the bathtub in extreme pain while the paramedics were coming? And afterward when he had lost consciousness? it was a METAPHYSICAL vision, not an empirical visit. I believe that all such visions/visitations are metaphysical. They cannot be otherwise, since a heavenly being appearing empirically would "fry" any mortal eyes in their sockets, etc. So "whether in the body or out of the body I cannot tell" remains core: and it is always out of the body, but afterward is so real that the memory feels as if it had occurred in the body....

[sethpayne]

I can't tell that we see things quite differently or not but thanks!

That's probably because when I disagree with you I usually don't post.

Not just you, but in general (although I do fall into snarkiness from time-to-time). I had my fill of arguments on this board back in 2009. Now I mostly lurk but really enjoy the thoughts from many of the intelligent posters here.

[CASteinman]

That's probably because when I disagree with you I usually don't post.

Actually I do that sometimes too. Mainly if I think I have no real point or insight -- just simply disagree.

[Duncan]

Elder David B Haight - "I was shown a panoramic view of His earthly ministry: His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension. There followed scenes of His earthly ministry to my mind in impressive detail, confirming scriptural eyewitness accounts. I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things."

You remember that this experience occurred when he was bent over the bathtub in extreme pain while the paramedics were coming? And afterward when he had lost consciousness? it was a METAPHYSICAL vision, not an empirical visit. I believe that all such visions/visitations are metaphysical. They cannot be otherwise, since a heavenly being appearing empirically would "fry" any mortal eyes in their sockets, etc. So "whether in the body or out of the body I cannot tell" remains core: and it is always out of the body, but afterward is so real that the memory feels as if it had occurred in the body....

what if God used that experience to show him the vision regardless of what you call it?