The Latest From Grant Palmer

[Scott Lloyd]

If his motivations are pathological and not simply malevolent, his is a tragic story rather than one of evil.

It could be both.

[teddyaware]

I don't think Judas harmed the truth of the early church at all as witnessed by its growth, but this is not about them at all. It's about a false church to begin with, and the possibility that its leaders are less than honest about its falseness, and the effects that could have on the church's followers and many probably who are doubting it right at this moment, probably following this conversation. It is not enough to cry lies, lies all the time, especially for those who are already doubting, that position is far less convincing than people who make unsubstantiated claims, like Joseph Smith for example. And nowadays there is much more evidence out there and available, especially on the net where enquiring people can go, and do, and many leave. So IMO comparing the LDS church with the original is a non starter, there is NO comparison, and if the OP is true, it will come out.

Let's turn the tables:

What are you and the many others who think like you going to do, and how are you going to react when you discover, much to your overwhelming shock and astonishment, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true Church?

What will you and the others do when all the assurity and confidence you feel crumbles to dust and you know you got it wrong?

What will you do when you stand before God the Father and realize he has a glorified body of flesh and bones?

And what will you do when the very God you worship testifies that Joseph Smith was and is his prophet and that the Book of Mormon is verily true?

And is it not true that the reason why you spend so much time on this board is because in your heart of hearts you know the doctrines and theology of the Latter-day Saints make a lot of sense?

And so you come here -- whistling past the graveyard, as it were -- constantly trying to reconvince yourself that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well as the great but humble living prophets, seers and revelators who stand at its head are all false -- all the while secretly fearing that gnawing feeling that causes you to doubt and wonder.

When the day of your discomfiture does inevitably come. I'll tell you how I and the rest of the Latter-day Saints will react towards you and those like you. We will plead with our loving and merciful Heavenly Father and with our Saviour in your behalf, that they might show you much mercy, compassion and understanding, to the end that you will inherit one of the many mansions in the Father's holy realm of glory.

"10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness." (2 Nephi 33)

Edited April 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[Hamba Tuhan]

I'll tell you how I and the rest of the Latter-day Saints will react towards you and those like you. We will plead with our loving and merciful Heavenly Father and with our Saviour in your behalf, that they might show you much mercy, compassion and understanding.

This.

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

[savedbygrace]

Let's turn the tables:

What are you and the many others who think like you going to do, and how are you going to react when you discover, much to your overwhelming shock and astonishment, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true Church?

What will you and the others do when all the assurity and confidence you feel crumbles to dust and you know you got it wrong?

What will you do when you stand before God the Father and realize he has a glorified body of flesh and bones?

And what will you do when the very God you worship testifies that Joseph Smith was and is his prophet and that the Book of Mormon is verily true?

And is it not true that the reason why you spend so much time on this board is because in your heart of hearts you know the doctrines and theology of the Latter-day Saints make a lot of sense?

And so you come here -- whistling past the graveyard, as it were -- constantly trying to reconvince yourself that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well as the great but humble living prophets, seers and revelators who stand at its head are all false -- all the while secretly fearing that gnawing feeling that causes you to doubt and wonder.

When the day of your discomfiture does inevitably come. I'll tell you how I and the rest of the Latter-day Saints will react towards you and those like you. We will plead with our loving and merciful Heavenly Father and with our Saviour in your behalf, that they might show you much mercy, compassion and understanding, to the end that you will inherit one of the many mansions in the Father's holy realm of glory.

"10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness." (2 Nephi 33)

and lets turn the tables again, right back atcha, to coin a phrase.

Despite the amateur psychology going on here I do not doubt at all that JS and his successors are false prophets,and doctrines and theology that seem to make sense in no way proves them to be right, I am equally sure that the BoM is verily untrue, so there really is little point quoting its content to me. As for your pleadings for me, my trust is in my Lord Jesus Christ alone, who pleads before the Father for all sinners, one of whom I am, but he is my high priest and my hope and he alone has paid the price for my salvation.

Edited April 19, 2013 by savedbygrace

[savedbygrace]

There is no need to imagine anything. It's pure nonsense. The Church is still true and more importantly Christ still lives despite people trying to take out His Church.

You actually do not know that it is pure nonsense, no-one on these boards does, you cannot prove that it is a lie, and if the person who made these claims does not have the courage to come right and say so, it cannot be proved as true....but it may be. That Christ is alive is my faith, that the LDS church is true is a falsehood. The LDS church is not the one true church on earth, in fact the fundamentalist momon groups are closer to the original LDS church than the modern church to which you belong...but the root is the same so they are no nearer being the true church of Christ either.

[Nevo]

Not a challenge, just a request for information: CFR. This doesn't jive with what I remember discussing in Institute.

The best source of information I am aware of regarding Richard R. Lyman is Gary Bergera's JMH article: "Transgression in the Latter-day Saint Community: The Cases of Albert Carrington, Richard R. Lyman, and Joseph F. Smith. Part 2: Richard R. Lyman" (the whole issue can be downloaded here). Bergera notes that Lyman did feel he'd been treated unfairly by the Twelve and he expressed this privately on occasion—but it is also clear that he never forsook the Church, never sought to embarrass it or harm it in any way. So his case does not really compare to Palmer's phantom GA.

Here is part of a letter he wrote to President McKay following his rebaptism:

The voice of an angel would have been no more welcome than was your voice when you called first Amy B[rown]., and then me to the telephone Saturday evening, October 16th. And no voice could have delivered a more welcome and sweeter message than did you when you said that by unanimous vote the First Presidency and the Twelve at the regular weekly council meeting held Thursday, September 23, 1954, granted my appeal to be readmitted to the Church. With tears in our voices and in our eyes we both tried to say: “A thousand thanks President McKay and God bless you!!” Your good will and kindly feelings toward me, reported by our mutual friends, have been a source of great encouragement.

Complying with your instructions written October 22nd, I called Bishop Harrison who came to our home at once after I gave him the good news. He and Sister Lyman and I agreed that it would be most appropriate and fitting to have my good friend Dr. Irvin Hull, who is our Stake Mission President, perform the ceremony of baptism. Arrangements for having this done at the [salt Lake] Tabernacle Wednesday, October 27th were made by Marion Hanks and Alexander Schreiner. I was confirmed by my childhood companion, my life-long intimate friend, my beloved classmate, President Bryant S. Hinckley, assisted by Marion Hanks, Alexander Schreiner, Irvin Hull, and Russell Harris, the other brethren present. With the ceremony completed I had these brethren gather around me and I said to them: “I hope you will remember these words of mine. Eleven years of darkness and daylight at last.”

During those eleven years I have not closed my eyes in sleep in any day until I have, on my bended knees, in secret, prayed, with all the faith at my command, that my short-comingsmight be forgiven, that I might have a spirit so repentant and humble that I would be worthy of being admitted to membership in the Church. Finally, the Lord has heard and there is “daylight at last” (Bergera, "Transgression," 203-204).

Edited April 19, 2013 by Nevo

[Calm]

You actually do not know that it is pure nonsense, no-one on these boards does, you cannot prove that it is a lie, and if the person who made these claims does not have the courage to come right and say so, it cannot be proved as true....but it may be. That Christ is alive is my faith, that the LDS church is true is a falsehood. The LDS church is not the one true church on earth, in fact the fundamentalist momon groups are closer to the original LDS church than the modern church to which you belong...but the root is the same so they are no nearer being the true church of Christ either.

You are not really engaging any comments of anyone here beyond retreating to the idea that we should be the ones to consider the possibility that our faith is false while you refuse to consider the possibility it is true....and then you take the opportunity to yet again tell us how wrong we are.

I am not impressed with your ability to discuss faith positions, but you are consistent, if totally unpersuasive, at least in your preaching.

I find it remarkable that you had the nerve to accuse another poster of protesting too much...or I would if it was not totally predictable given your past history.

Edited April 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[Hamba Tuhan]

Bergera notes that Lyman did feel he'd been treated unfairly by the Twelve and he expressed this privately on occasion—but it is also clear that he never forsook the Church, never sought to embarrass it or harm it in any way.

Here is part of a letter he wrote to President McKay following his rebaptism:

Thanks, Nevo. I remember reading part of that letter in Institute.

[Questing Beast]

Questing Beast, on 18 April 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Precisely. The flogging was mere preparatory "overkill". That says something infinitely worse about the suffering he "really" undergoes for each of us, so that we can be spared a "flogging" and become "gods". No, thank, you, I won't be buying "godhood" with some else's suffering....

You: I am afraid that your are mistaken about this.

This is not a "becoming god" thing. This is a salvation thing. Salvation from the price of sin. The matter of exaltation is separate.

The scripture in D&C is where the Lord said that he endured it so that none others would have to endure, if they would be repent. The thing is, He already did it! It's done. He offers to let you go without experiencing it for yourself. It doesn't add to His suffering if you take his offer; it doesn't subtract from it if you reject it.

But if you reject his offer, then you suffer for yourself and you are then damned (that is left without eternal progression) and dwell elsewhere than where He ministers. Because you have rejected Him.

Me: This is where "you don't get it", apparently. Jesus Christ suffered, it is asserted, in order to spare the one who repents the suffering that sin brings. There are billions of people who repent every day, who vow to not do "sin" again. Their hearts are correctly smitten and they hearken to those feelings, and all with only "the light of Christ" guiding them. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ". No exceptions to that prophecy. So my repugnance at the whole "plan of salvation" is moot. I shall bow and confess, if only to avoid the worse-than-flogging that would be my lot to suffer for my "sins". It isn't possible to reject him. Rejecting him, yet repenting of your sins nevertheless, is not on offer. "Godhood" follows in due course as a result of redemption. You can't get to the one without the other, first. You are separating them and they are not separate to "gods".

There is an element of humility in accepting His offering. There is a great pride in rejecting it. This is not something that you can say you will be self-reliant in this case, and get anywhere at all you want to get.

Me: And that's the rub: the whole "plan of salvation" smacks of manipulation and lack of "all power". "This is how it's always been done", is a poor excuse. If God the Father is mimicking the "gods" that went before, and if GtF is not the cause of existence in the first place, but merely part of it, then this "plan" stinks. I want no part of it if "getting ahead", i.e. exalted, depends on someone else going through worse than hell so that I don't have to. I'll just step one huge step backward and let others crowd forward to climb higher forever on the bloody back of Another. If I was fine as I was, without asking Another to suffer for me, I will remain that way, thank you. That's what I know and believe now. If I didn't understand it then, in some hypothetical "preexistence", I do now, and I want out. But, since I accept that all of that is man-made dogma, and at best sanctioned by "God" to teach and prove a point about the depth of "God's" love through typology, parable, metaphor, symbolism, etc., I don't believe that I have anything to "get out" of. Nobody does. We are each responsible for our own decisions and the consequences are unavoidable. "God" guides those who desire to be guided, and that is how suffering is minimized and even avoided altogether for those who know the pitfalls of "sin".

If you were lost at sea, floating on a raft thousands of miles from the nearest land, and a helicopter came by, would you wave it off because you were so proud because you insisted upon saving yourself, not to be beholden to someone else? That's what you are saying you want. Jesus offers you a helicopter, and you insist you can swim the distance yourself. You will not make it.

Me: Not remotely the same. Wanting/praying for help out of a dire circumstance and having a rescuer show up is not the same as being in heaven, wanting to be like higher beings (GtF and Mother), and being told that it is only possible if our favorite Sibling goes through hell first. Innocence is no justification for agreeing to the suffering of Another before the fact. Innocence is being taken advantage of in that case by those who already know what is being offered. I no longer hold that innocent ignorance, I am educated by "being there" (here). And I will not stand by watching while Jesus Christ gets his flesh flayed away to "save" me. If the universe was set up that way, and I had the power, I'd destroy it and start over....

Edited April 19, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Questing Beast]

Questing Beast, on 18 April 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Precisely. The flogging was mere preparatory "overkill". That says something infinitely worse about the suffering he "really" undergoes for each of us, so that we can be spared a "flogging" and become "gods". No, thank, you, I won't be buying "godhood" with some else's suffering....

You: Its already been done. Are you going to turn your back on such a selfless act of love?

I have to believe that the crucifixion is my fate too, unless I accept Christ's crucifixion in place of my own. And that is not a decision I have to make, thank God. My suffering is my own. God guides and preserves us from as much misery as possible already, every moment of every day. What more is needed? Christians assert that without the Cross we are all doomed to destiny in hell, because we were born fallen beings, children of fallen parents as far back as creation and the "fall". Yet Mormons say that Adam's transgression is his alone. We are "a little lower than the angels" down here, that's all the difference there is with those who follow the light of Christ, conscience, the best they know how. And to most believers that isn't good enough. We must stand by and watch while Christ suffers horrific maiming and pain unto death. You get to know, every step of "the way of the cross", that Jesus Christ is YOU, but taking it all in your place. The scene is inescapable, forever, burned into your mind as if it happened to you, but the pain is removed and put on him instead. You don't have to be flogged and crucified if you accept him as your replacement. Who would refuse? Maybe only a handful with a dull sense of pain or a highly developed martyrdom complex or a masochist. I am none of those. The concept of inevitable suffering beyond comprehension, in order to "return" to God/heaven, much less become a "god" myself, is not something I want any part of unless or until I am ready to do it myself. I won't be sparing myself so that Another can do all the suffering part for me. If I ever want badly enough to be a "god", so that I will do the sacrificing required, well and good. I have eternity to contemplate the personal cost. The way it is presented in LDS and other Judeo-Christian dogma is that only Christ has the power to suffer enough to raise all creation up. We are powerless to be other than as the "angels", i.e. never advancing to "godhood" or salvation, requiring no salvation in fact. There are huge differences in defining what man is, between LDS and other Judeo-Christian dogma. Neither variety suits me. I would never set up any "plan of salvation" to work that way, regardless of whether or not there is a preexistence or we come into awareness for the first time with mortal birth. At some point we choose to go along with "the plan". I see it clearly enough to reject it, because my personal benefit is only possible if Another purchases it with blood and I have to agree to that suffering and death. I do not agree that it is de facto necessary. Religion will have to do a lot more convincing job to convince me that it isn't man-made and not literal....

Edited April 19, 2013 by Questing Beast

[CASteinman]

it is also clear that he never forsook the Church, never sought to embarrass it or harm it in any way.

That is true. He never really forsook his testimony. And this was a concern -- that he might lend support to polygamists. But he didn't. He stayed true to his testimony.

So his case does not really compare to Palmer's phantom GA.

The comparison (initially made by me) is that when GA's are released from membership there is a history of them becoming bitter. This bitterness can result in people becoming enemies of the Church. This was the certainly the pattern in the early days of the Restoration. In more modern times, it appears that their hostility can be as intense but it is muted and "inactive".

Thus, with bitterness, it is not out of the bounds of the history of the Church that a GA could become someone who in conversations that they consider to be secure or private -- to breathe out evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. It would not be surprising at all. And to me that means, the ridiculousness of the claims made about the 12 is not the same thing as Palmer lying. He could have indeed heard those things, or something like it. THAT part does not make his overall story incredible.

And that was the point.

[CASteinman]

If they exist. And I think that's a big if.

Oh yeah. If they exist. Might not. Could be a lie. He is, after all, almost certain to be financially rewarded by the success of this story among certain people.

[Duncan]

The best source of information I am aware of regarding Richard R. Lyman is Gary Bergera's JMH article: "Transgression in the Latter-day Saint Community: The Cases of Albert Carrington, Richard R. Lyman, and Joseph F. Smith. Part 2: Richard R. Lyman" (the whole issue can be downloaded here). Bergera notes that Lyman did feel he'd been treated unfairly by the Twelve and he expressed this privately on occasion—but it is also clear that he never forsook the Church, never sought to embarrass it or harm it in any way. So his case does not really compare to Palmer's phantom GA.

Here is part of a letter he wrote to President McKay following his rebaptism:

I read the Carrington and Lyman article and waiting for the Smith article to be put online...patientce is a virture or so I am told!

[CASteinman]

I do not like our need to drudge up the failures of men. The sadness of these things is not "fun" to study and I don't quite get what we are going to learn by it.

[teddyaware]

and lets turn the tables again, right back atcha, to coin a phrase.

Despite the amateur psychology going on here I do not doubt at all that JS and his successors are false prophets,and doctrines and theology that seem to make sense in no way proves them to be right, I am equally sure that the BoM is verily untrue, so there really is little point quoting its content to me. As for your pleadings for me, my trust is in my Lord Jesus Christ alone, who pleads before the Father for all sinners, one of whom I am, but he is my high priest and my hope and he alone has paid the price for my salvation.

One doctrinal or theological point at a time, let's have a dialogue about what you believe are the false beliefs of the LDS Church, okay? You bring up one issue at a time and we'll a nice discussion. By the way, thanks for your frank admission that the doctrines and theology of the Latter-day saints "seem to make sense." With that, I believe the first point scored in our discussion belongs to me. Speaking as a man, the fact that LDS teachings make so much darn good sense is one of the many reasons why I'm a an eternally committed Latter-day Saint.

Looking forward to our dialogue,

All the best, Ted

[Calm]

Looking forward to our dialogue,

All the best, Ted

You are a better man than I am, Ted.

[savedbygrace]

You are not really engaging any comments of anyone here beyond retreating to the idea that we should be the ones to consider the possibility that our faith is false while you refuse to consider the possibility it is true....and then you take the opportunity to yet again tell us how wrong we are.

I am not impressed with your ability to discuss faith positions, but you are consistent, if totally unpersuasive, at least in your preaching.

I find it remarkable that you had the nerve to accuse another poster of protesting too much...or I would if it was not totally predictable given your past history.

AS far as I recall this post was about certain assertions attributed to Grant Palmer and his unknown informant, for want of a better word. These assertions have neither been proved true or false. I don't think there have been any real faith positions put forward to discuss. There have the constant stream of abuse towards GP, and the whole thing generally thrown to one side as a lie, but no-one actually knows that, my questions have been around what would happen if they were proved to be true. And once again the cry of lies, lies has gone up added to which the predictable testimonies that the church is true, a view to which I do not subscribe and have said so, and will continue to say so. That is my position, and I make it clear, so I will ask you, what if the claims made in the OP turn out to be true? That was and is my question

[Calm]

I don't think there have been any real faith positions put forward to discuss.

And yet you have constantly asserted your own faith position about the falseness of the LDS faith.

[savedbygrace]

One doctrinal or theological point at a time, let's have a dialogue about what you believe are the false beliefs of the LDS Church, okay? You bring up one issue at a time and we'll a nice discussion. By the way, thanks for your frank admission that the doctrines and theology of the Latter-day saints "seem to make sense." With that, I believe the first point scored in our discussion belongs to me. Speaking as a man, the fact that LDS teachings make so much darn good sense is one of the many reasons why I'm a an eternally committed Latter-day Saint.

Looking forward to our dialogue,

All the best, Ted

You are a sly fox Ted, you have deliberately ignored the last part of the sentence.

[savedbygrace]

And yet you have constantly asserted your own faith position about the falseness of the LDS faith.

You haven't answered the question

[DarkScythe]

Also the GAs who feel this way would be Class A sociopaths or psychopaths---human beings without emotions or feelings, allowing millions of people to believe in something false.

you mean, a person without a conscience. You will be surprised what non sociopath/psychopathic people will do for money,power and fame.

[Calm]

You haven't answered the question

I'll start dialoguing with you when I believe an actual discussion will take place.

[escott3564]

That is my position' date=' and I make it clear, so I will ask you, what if the claims made in the OP turn out to be true? That was and is my question[/quote']

I hope it is OK if I join the conversation?

If the claims were true, then there are a few things which would be the case:

1. The LDS Church would obviously have no hope and a prayer of being true.

2. The people running the LDS Church would clearly be running a very large scam, and apparently, have a lot of money at their fingertips to do so.

However, the fact remains that what Palmer claimed regarding the one million dollar payout to GA's, and/or the 12 being "let in" on the idea that the whole gospel is a scam, and buying into furthering that scam, is a BALD FACED LIE.

[Calm]

However, the fact remains that what Palmer claimed regarding the one million dollar payout to GA's, and/or the 12 being "let in" on the idea that the whole gospel is a scam, and buying into furthering that scam, is a BALD FACED LIE.

The thing I find most implausible about his whole story is that a GA that has managed to fly under the radar and has attempted to keep up the facade for apparently sometime would be foolish enough to confide in Palmer considering his history, especially after his presentation with hints that exposed the GA's existence at the exmormon conference. All the stress of duplicity must be leading to a loss of rationality, a mental breakdown. Edited April 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nevo]

I do not like our need to drudge up the failures of men. The sadness of these things is not "fun" to study and I don't quite get what we are going to learn by it.

Ardis Parshall addressed some of your concerns in this blog post.