Birth In The Covenant Given Affairs And Divorces

[bluebell]

3.6.2 handbook 1 says the child is still sealed to the first husband, unless the mother was ex, seal cancel, or revealed to new spouse.

So what happens to the child if the mother eventually does get the sealing canceled? Is the child's sealing to the first husband nullified?

[Yep]

3.6.2 handbook 1 says the child is still sealed to the first husband, unless the mother was ex, seal cancel, or revealed to new spouse.

What does the last phrase, "revealed to new spouse", mean?

[Flyonthewall]

My son married a woman that had children from a previous temple marriage. My son had a civil marriage, and when they had their own child, we assumed that he could be sealed to his own child. The answer was no. My son's child was already born in the covenant of the mother's previous temple marriage.

We were not liking this, but was explained that being born in the covenant is a blessing to the child, not necessarily the parents. There was no need for the child to be re-sealed to my son as the blessings were already in place.

[bluebell]

My son married a woman that had children from a previous temple marriage. My son had a civil marriage, and when they had their own child, we assumed that he could be sealed to his own child. The answer was no. My son's child was already born in the covenant of the mother's previous temple marriage.

We were not liking this, but was explained that being born in the covenant is a blessing to the child, not necessarily the parents. There was no need for the child to be re-sealed to my son as the blessings were already in place.

So, it sounds like it really doesn't matter who you are sealed to, as long as you are sealed to someone. It will have no impact on who your 'forever family' is or being someone's son or father in the hereafter.

[Yep]

So, it sounds like it really doesn't matter who you are sealed to, as long as you are sealed to someone. It will have no impact on who your 'forever family' is or being someone's son or father in the hereafter.

While I have heard this type of thing before, I personally don't like this answer, it doesn't seem consistent with LDS beliefs. It seems to devalue the sealing ordinance. Also, if it did not matter to whom you were sealed to, why do we wait for the parents to be sealed to seal the dead to them? Wouldn't it be more efficient to simply seal them to whomever is available? It doesn't make sense, there must be some important reason for a sealing to the parent.

[ERayR]

Can a child be considered to be BIC if they are legally (and biologically of course) the child of someone else?

All that needs be asked is have the sealing ordinances been cancelled? If not yes. If they have no.

Change the scenario a bit. Your wife becomes pregnant (your child) and sometime in the next nine months you divorce and your sealing is canceled. Is the child in the covenant? Or you are divorced and the sealing is not canceled. Is the child in the covenant? The answer is was the covenant still in force or not.

[Maidservant]

This is what happened in my family, although it was a few decades ago, so things may have changed.

My mother and father were married in the temple.

Three children were born, born in the covenant.

My father violated his covenants and was excommunicated.

Post-excommunication, a fourth child was born.

Shortly after that, my mother and father divorced.

Shortly after that, my mother remarried civilly and in a few years after that my mother and step-father prepared for and were sealed in the temple.

Part of that preparation was to get my mother's sealing to my father cancelled, by letters to and process involving the First Presidency; even though my father remained ex-communicated until the day he died. (My father's parental rights were legally terminated and my step-father legally adopted us, as well, even to the point of changing the father on our birth certificates.) (My step-father was still sealed and remains sealed to an ex-wife of many years previous and who was not active and my step-father had also been ex-communicated and re-baptized in the interim before marrying my mother.)

On the day that my mother and step-father were sealed, the three of us older children were considered to still be sealed, having been born in the covenant.

My youngest brother was sealed in a ceremony right after the marriage sealing ceremony, to my mother and my step-father (our now adopted father) since he had been born after my father was excommunicated.

Can't say how that reflects on policy or doctrine, but that's what happened.

This is distinct from flyonthewall's situation since it doesn't seem that the ex-husband in his case was ex-communicated, as my father was.

[bluebell]

Change the scenario a bit. Your wife becomes pregnant (your child) and sometime in the next nine months you divorce and your sealing is canceled. Is the child in the covenant? Or you are divorced and the sealing is not canceled. Is the child in the covenant? The answer is was the covenant still in force or not.

Given that the child's biological father is the person who the mother is sealed to, the situation doesn't seem to be similar to what Yep was asking.

Your questions do make me wonder though, if a husband and wife are married for 30 years and all of their five children are born in the covenant, and then they divorce and the sealing is cancelled so the mother can remarry, are the children no longer sealed to anyone?

[ERayR]

Also, the church won't perform any ordinance on a child without parental consent, which seems to imply that the church takes a parent's wishes and rights very seriously in regards to such matters. In that regard, the idea that someone else's child can be born to a person but that the person would have no viable way to claim them in the eternities through no fault of their own, because they were given to a stranger, seems odd.

There is no ordinance to perform on the child they are simply BIC. There are blessings associated to this status see.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/04/children-of-the-covenant?lang=eng

[Maidservant]

I should also mention that my mother and step-father have been divorced and my father has remarried a lady who is sealed to her first husband (they are both elderly at this point). My mother at one point went to inquire about getting her sealing cancelled from her now ex-husband, but was counseled that she leave that in place until a moment when she would be preparing to be sealed to another. My mother understood this counsel to be based on that she receives sealing blessings from the SEALING, that are valuable in and of themselves.

[bluebell]

There is no ordinance to perform on the child they are simply BIC. There are blessings associated to this status see.

https://www.lds.org/...venant?lang=eng

I know.

I was using that as an example of how the church seems to approach these kinds of issues where a biological parent of a child is different from the person who is directly involved with a child's record of blessings.

[ERayR]

Given that the child's biological father is the person who the mother is sealed to, the situation doesn't seem to be similar to what Yep was asking.

Your questions do make me wonder though, if a husband and wife are married for 30 years and all of their five children are born in the covenant, and then they divorce and the sealing is cancelled so the mother can remarry, are the children no longer sealed to anyone?

To use an analogy that I once heard. The sealing power is like forging a chain, link by link. When one of those links becomes broken because of unworthiness then that link is removed and the remaining links forged together in a new chain. Thus the blessings of the fathers are maintained.

[CV75]

Someone mentioned that they believed that should an ex-spouse, who was sealed and had never received a cancelation, have a child, that that child would be in the covenant by virtue of the sealing. Is this true, and is there support for such a position? It could make sense in a way, but it seems odd.

I understand that a child that is born in the covenant has all the same promises and blessings as those named in a live temple ceremony. So it doesn't matter what his parents do.

I also understand that a child is sealed to his mother and to whomever she is sealed. This needn't be a barrier to proper and loving relationships or the exercise of agency, either in this life or the next. But to be sure about this, I would consult with my priesthood leader.

I do know that in cases of divorce and cancellation of sealings, sealing status is not necessarily an indicator of "who won" or "who lost" since there is still a long way to go before Judgement Day.

[Kenngo1969]

This is what happened in my family, although it was a few decades ago, so things may have changed.

My mother and father were married in the temple.

Three children were born, born in the covenant.

My father violated his covenants and was excommunicated.

Post-excommunication, a fourth child was born.

Shortly after that, my mother and father divorced.

Shortly after that, my mother remarried civilly and in a few years after that my mother and step-father prepared for and were sealed in the temple.

Part of that preparation was to get my mother's sealing to my father cancelled, by letters to and process involving the First Presidency; even though my father remained ex-communicated until the day he died. (My father's parental rights were legally terminated and my step-father legally adopted us, as well, even to the point of changing the father on our birth certificates.) (My step-father was still sealed and remains sealed to an ex-wife of many years previous and who was not active and my step-father had also been ex-communicated and re-baptized in the interim before marrying my mother.)

On the day that my mother and step-father were sealed, the three of us older children were considered to still be sealed, having been born in the covenant.

My youngest brother was sealed in a ceremony right after the marriage sealing ceremony, to my mother and my step-father (our now adopted father) since he had been born after my father was excommunicated.

Can't say how that reflects on policy or doctrine, but that's what happened.

This is distinct from flyonthewall's situation since it doesn't seem that the ex-husband in his case was ex-communicated, as my father was.

Yeesh! Sometimes, I'm not so discontented with my single-and-Eternally-Ignored status in the Church! (And I don't mean to make light of your plight, Maidservant. I cannot imagine how challenging that was for you and for the other members of your family.) I'm not sure what God has in store for me on so many fronts, and I can only shrug my shoulders and say, along with Nephi, "I know not the meaning of all things. Nevertheless, I know that God loveth His children." Best to you.

P.S.: All of our family trees, gnarled though they may be, are beautiful in their own way!

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

At the risk of oversimplifying, I think the effectiveness of my covenants is contingent upon nobody's faithfulness but mine; and the effectiveness of others' covenants is contingent upon nobody's faithfulness but theirs.

[cinepro]

i'm still sealed to my ex, but she doesn't have any kiddies from the new Beau, if she did I wouldn't be sealed to them because they "ain't mine" as to what refs, maybe the handbook of instructions 1 or 2 is what I would go from

The "theoretical" I've heard is a husband and wife get married in the Temple, and on the way home get in a car crash and the husband dies. Since the sealing is still in effect, any children that woman has for the rest of her life are still sealed to the first husband.

So unless you get the sealing broken, any future kids your ex-wife has will be sealed to you.

I think this is the part where we all start saying that "in heaven, everyone will be happy and God won't make anyone do anything they don't want to and it will all work out in the end so don't worry about it."

Edited April 3, 2013 by cinepro

[Duncan]

The "theoretical" I've heard is a husband and wife get married in the Temple, and on the way home get in a car crash and the husband dies. Since the sealing is still in effect, any children that woman has for the rest of her life are still sealed to the first husband.

So unless you get the sealing broken, any future kids your ex-wife has will be sealed to you.

I think this is the part where we all start saying that "in heaven, everyone will be happy and God won't make anyone do anything they don't want to and it will all work out in the end so don't worry about it."

I asked my Bishop about 3 years now if I can get the sealing broken and get all that hullabaloo out of the way so I can marry my dreamboat of a woman (who I don't know who that is yet, maybe) but he said that I had to wait until I was getting married before I could apply for it-drat, eh?

[Saints Alive]

Weird

[ERayR]

The "theoretical" I've heard is a husband and wife get married in the Temple, and on the way home get in a car crash and the husband dies. Since the sealing is still in effect, any children that woman has for the rest of her life are still sealed to the first husband.

So unless you get the sealing broken, any future kids your ex-wife has will be sealed to you.

I think this is the part where we all start saying that "in heaven, everyone will be happy and God won't make anyone do anything they don't want to and it will all work out in the end so don't worry about it."

Either that or you won't be there anyway.

[mtomm]

Couple marries in the temple. They have two children. Husband dies. Wife remarries but, of course, is not sealed to new husband. They have a child. That child is sealed to the deceased first husband. Default BIC to the person the wife is sealed to.

[Calm]

I think when we visualize sealing as a chain, feelings of being linked to the wrong person can cause some hardship in families. I prefer to think of sealing as more of a web, where we are sealed in multiple ways to pretty much everyone else in the celestial family with God as the center (God being God the Father and God the Mother). Someone may be removed from the web through their own personal sin, but that just severs the link with them, not with everyone else.

Another way to look at it is like the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine's description of the community of the shapeshifters (the Great Link) where one joins into the golden ocean of being, one is still an individual but also the community at the same time. Even if a child is not specifically sealed to one, that child is still your responsibility, your gift just as all of the others in God's family are our responsibility and our gift to belong to.

I think of the people we are directly sealed to as those who hold the office to 'introduce' us into God's celestial family, but at this point I don't see much more than that considering how we will all be there as adults and part of a family unit/husband and wife. Even those who haven't had the chance to have children in this life are promised to be able to have them in the next one so all exalted will be parents as well as children as well as being one with the Father and Son....so it seems to me if there is a relationship that a parent has specific to a child that carries beyond the becoming one ordinance (whatever that might be) that it is not something we are currently aware of in the here and now.

Edited April 4, 2013 by calmoriah

[blackstrap]

Several decades ago there was a song called " I'm my own Grandpa " The music and lyrics can be found on Youtube. This song will clarify the difficulties posted on this thread .

[bluebell]

Several decades ago there was a song called " I'm my own Grandpa " The music and lyrics can be found on Youtube. This song will clarify the difficulties posted on this thread .

I love that song. It's by Ray Stevens isn't it?

[canard78]

I think CASteiman is right on this.

Certainly as long as the sealing stands, any child born is considered born in the covenant. Simply, the covenant stands so technically the child is born in it.

Only two things undo this covenant:

- The couple have their sealing revokes but remain members. All sealing blessings are undone.

- One spouse leaves the church and removes name/is excommunicated. The sealing to each other is also broken. The now non-member spouse is no longer sealed to the other (even if they remain married) nor to the children. The active spouse stays sealed to their children but not the spouse.

Yep, is that a hypothetical situation or did it really happen to you? If the latter, I'm really sorry to hear it. That sounds like a very tough experience.

By the way, you can be sealed to a new wife without having to revoke your first one. I don't that any of this gives you a satisfactory answer.

The 'it'll be sorted in the millennium' answer is among the least satisfying to me, but some things simply have no satisfying answer.

Have you considered asking your Bishop or Stake Pres to check handbook 1? They could also contact the temple department.

[Yep]

Yep, is that a hypothetical situation or did it really happen to you? If the latter, I'm really sorry to hear it. That sounds like a very tough experience.

By the way, you can be sealed to a new wife without having to revoke your first one. I don't that any of this gives you a satisfactory answer.

The 'it'll be sorted in the millennium' answer is among the least satisfying to me, but some things simply have no satisfying answer.

Have you considered asking your Bishop or Stake Pres to check handbook 1? They could also contact the temple department.

No, the ex-wife has not had children yet, but a late term miscarriage shortly after the divorce. Aside from that it is the situation. It was, and is, hard sometimes, but I've moved on and think I have forgiven them. I have people bring up things like this sometimes though and so I get curious and look for the answer. I think that this type of situation is why adultery is considered so bad, and why divorce is supposed to be so difficult to occur. I think the eternal impacts are much farther reaching and damaging than has been alluded to in this thread.

Yes, men get clearance letters, women get cancelations. I think this is a question that will be answered in the millennium. I was just hoping to find that something had been said about it.