Yep Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Someone mentioned that they believed that should an ex-spouse, who was sealed and had never received a cancelation, have a child, that that child would be in the covenant by virtue of the sealing. Is this true, and is there support for such a position? It could make sense in a way, but it seems odd.
thesometimesaint Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 The covenant for the child is enforce regardless of the faithfulness or lack thereof by the parent(s). 1
Yep Posted April 2, 2013 Author Posted April 2, 2013 Perhaps I was unclear though. My ex-wife had become pregnant following an affair, prior to our divorce, but was due following the divorce. Would this child then be sealed to me? If, following our divorce and in the absence of a cancelation, she were to become pregnant, would the child be sealed to me? Some have intimated that such would be the case in both situations. I am curious as to the answer.
Duncan Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I doubt he/she would be sealed to you if you weren't the father, the child would be sealed to you if you somehow adopted them or something and had them sealed to you
CASteinman Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Perhaps I was unclear though. My ex-wife had become pregnant following an affair, prior to our divorce, but was due following the divorce. Would this child then be sealed to me? If, following our divorce and in the absence of a cancelation, she were to become pregnant, would the child be sealed to me? Some have intimated that such would be the case in both situations. I am curious as to the answer.Levirate Children in a way.
CASteinman Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I doubt he/she would be sealed to you if you weren't the father, the child would be sealed to you if you somehow adopted them or something and had them sealed to youBIC. 1
Yep Posted April 2, 2013 Author Posted April 2, 2013 Levirate Children in a way.That is how it could possibly make sense to me. I feel like this might be the case, but I don't know, and would like a more absolute statement if there is one.
CASteinman Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 That is how it could possibly make sense to me. I feel like this might be the case, but I don't know, and would like a more absolute statement if there is one.Check with your Bishop on the General Handbook of Instructions.
bluebell Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 BIC.Can a child be considered to be BIC if they are legally (and biologically of course) the child of someone else?
Yep Posted April 2, 2013 Author Posted April 2, 2013 I doubt he/she would be sealed to you if you weren't the father, the child would be sealed to you if you somehow adopted them or something and had them sealed to youIf I am still sealed to my ex-wife and she has a child, why would this not be the case, what references exist that would clarify this subject?
Yep Posted April 2, 2013 Author Posted April 2, 2013 Check with your Bishop on the General Handbook of Instructions.I've thought of that, but I'm trying to exhaust my resources first. This forum is a good resource often.
Calm Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 (edited) Perhaps an easier question that somewhat relates is if a child who has been born after someone has been excommunicated need to be sealed after the individual has their blessings restored or is the BIC continuous? If so, then it seems to me it would be for someone who remained excommunicated and someone who violated the covenant of marriage for herself, but apparently not for the child.If the child has to be sealed, then the issue of this child is still open, imo.This case is different, but I have heard someone claim that an exwife's future children belong to him, the claim being made to hurt both his exwife and her new husband....I do not believe that in that case where the motivation to claim the children is anger or hate that the covenant that connects the child to the former husband is still in force, if the exwife is the one who originally violated the covenant of marriage, the former husband is certainly violating it now by replacing a covenant of love with a relationship based on his anger and resentment.I think that if the sealing in is place, what is important is the child is sealed into the family of God and not so much who the 'line' goes through. I don't know what the actual parent-child relationship will be, but since we will all be adults and in our own parental/spousal relationship, a certain level of equality seems to be in place and any authority would be much like the authority of a bishop over a ward family as opposed to a father's authority over a minor child. Edited April 2, 2013 by calmoriah
Yep Posted April 2, 2013 Author Posted April 2, 2013 Perhaps an easier question that somewhat relates is if a child who has been born after someone has been excommunicated need to be sealed after the individual has their blessings restored or is the BIC continuous? If so, then it seems to me it would be for someone who remained excommunicated and someone who violated the covenant of marriage for herself, but apparently not for the child.If the child has to be sealed, then the issue of this child is still open, imo.This case is different, but I have heard someone claim that an exwife's future children belong to him, the claim being made to hurt both his exwife and her new husband....I do not believe that in that case where the motivation to claim the children is anger or hate that the covenant that connects the child to the former husband is still in force, if the exwife is the one who originally violated the covenant of marriage, the former husband is certainly violating it now by replacing a covenant of love with a relationship based on his anger and resentment.I think that if the sealing in is place, what is important is the child is sealed into the family of God and not so much who the 'line' goes through. I don't know what the actual parent-child relationship will be, but since we will all be adults and in our own parental/spousal relationship, a certain level of equality seems to be in place and any authority would be much like the authority of a bishop over a ward family as opposed to a father's authority over a minor child.I don't think the excommunication question relates unless the ex-wife was excommunicated. Do excommunicated individuals have to take their own endowments again if they return, do they get re-sealed if there was no divorce?I like the last part of your comment. I am not asking this vindictively, I am asking this to know if I have an eternal responsibility if this occurs, and mainly simple curiosity because I had never considered this a possibility before someone mentioned it to me.
rongo Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I don't think this is necessarily covered in the handbook, and it's not necessarily something a bishop or stake president would have a definitive answer for (i.e., their views would carry the same weight ours would).Has your wife been excommunicated? Is the child actually yours or the other man's? Do you have custody of the child, or does your ex-wife and her husband? Has the child been blessed? Is the child being raised in the Church (i.e., do they attend church, even though their relationship began with adultery)? Etc., etc.I think a lot depends on the answers to these and other questions.
CASteinman Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 Can a child be considered to be BIC if they are legally (and biologically of course) the child of someone else?The last time I looked into this, the answer was Yes.
bluebell Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 The last time I looked into this, the answer was Yes.Even without the legal guarding's permission? I know in other situations a sealing cannot take place without a legal guardian's consent, which is why I'm wondering.
rongo Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 If a child is never brought to Church to be blessed and a record is never created, it won't be BIC on the records of the Church. It won't appear anywhere on the records of the Church. So, if the ex-wife and the child aren't attending Church (assuming she wasn't excommunicated), probably not even her records reside in her ward.If she is attending Church and seeks/sought for a membership record to be made for the child, well, then it could get complicated. A lot would depend on my questions above.
CASteinman Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 Even without the legal guarding's permission? I know in other situations a sealing cannot take place without a legal guardian's consent, which is why I'm wondering.BIC is not a permission sort of thing.
bluebell Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 BIC is not a permission sort of thing.Even if its a matter of record? If a sealing can't be recorded without parental consent, I don't understand why a BIC could be recorded against a parents wishes.
CASteinman Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 Even if its a matter of record? If a sealing can't be recorded without parental consent, I don't understand why a BIC could be recorded against a parents wishes.Its not a matter of recording exactly. Its a matter of status. Its like being born on American Soil. Once born on American Soil, no matter how much you wish you had not been, you still were.
Duncan Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 If I am still sealed to my ex-wife and she has a child, why would this not be the case, what references exist that would clarify this subject?i'm still sealed to my ex, but she doesn't have any kiddies from the new Beau, if she did I wouldn't be sealed to them because they "ain't mine" as to what refs, maybe the handbook of instructions 1 or 2 is what I would go from
Saints Alive Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) If a sealing can't be recorded without parental consent, I don't understand why a BIC could be recorded against a parents wishes.A sealing cannot be performed without concent, being BIC happens automatically, with or without concent. The record is just a piece of paper. The only way the child wouldn't be recorded as BIC would be if the spouse was excommunicated or removed their name from the record befor the child became a child of record. Edited April 3, 2013 by Saints Alive 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 The covenant for the child is enforce regardless of the faithfulness or lack thereof by the parent(s).Well said...
bluebell Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 A sealing cannot be performed without concent, being BIC happens automatically, with or without concent. The record is just a piece of paper. The only way the child wouldn't be recorded as BIC would be if the spouse was excommunicated or removed their name from the record befor the child became a child of record.I realize that, but my question still stands.Records are very important in the church (as D&C 128 teaches), and if something isn't recorded, as far as the church goes, it didn't happen-records are much more than mere pieces of paper. Also, the church won't perform any ordinance on a child without parental consent, which seems to imply that the church takes a parent's wishes and rights very seriously in regards to such matters. In that regard, the idea that someone else's child can be born to a person but that the person would have no viable way to claim them in the eternities through no fault of their own, because they were given to a stranger, seems odd.
Doctrine 612 Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) 3.6.2 handbook 1 says the child is still sealed to the first husband, unless the mother was ex, seal cancel, or revealed to new spouse.3.6.2 handbook 1 says the child is still sealed to the first husband, unless the mother was ex, seal cancel, or sealed to new spouse. Edited April 4, 2013 by Doctrine 612
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