Why How

[volgadon]

It is tempting at times to believe that health, wealth, and happiness are god's blessings for our obedience.

They can be, but they are not always so.

[salvar774]

I think I did not post the question right . If we believe mosiah 2:22 then if we obey the commandments we should prosper . My question is why some do not proper obeying the commanment and how is it some prosper greatly and do obey any commandments

It seems to me people are not wanting to consider being prosperous a blessing from God .

[Tacenda]

Then my inactive sister and Catholic husband are very blessed and more than monetarily, good kids and very loving family. And my very devout LDS neighbors who are temple attending aren't so much, their son is now in jail and had to come home early from LDS mission. Why do they suffer so? Seems pretty unfair.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Tacenda

[ksfisher]

I think I did not post the question right . If we believe mosiah 2:22 then if we obey the commandments we should prosper . My question is why some do not proper obeying the commanment and how is it some prosper greatly and do obey any commandments

It seems to me people are not wanting to consider being prosperous a blessing from God .

Is your definition of prospering the same as Benjamin's?

[volgadon]

I think I did not post the question right . If we believe mosiah 2:22 then if we obey the commandments we should prosper . My question is why some do not proper obeying the commanment and how is it some prosper greatly and do obey any commandments

It seems to me people are not wanting to consider being prosperous a blessing from God .

See my post above. At any rate, that verse in Mosiah must be read in context of what Martin Buber termed a, "cosmically ethical character." As Buber explains the concept of a promised land in the book "Israel and Palestine:The History of an Idea," it is a covenantal partnership between man and the land on which GOd placed him. "Man is subject to the command of a God who reveals His will to him and he has been placed in such an intimate relationship with the earth by the creative act of this same God that his attitude to the divine ordinance has a direct influence, for good or for evil, on the earth itself.:

[salvar774]

Is your definition of prospering the same as Benjamin's?

Proper

intr.v., -pered, -per·ing, -pers.

To be fortunate or successful, especially in terms of one's finances; thrive.

[salvar774]

Then my inactive sister and Catholic husband are very blessed and more than monetarily, good kids and very loving family. And my very devout LDS neighbors who are temple attending aren't so much, their son is now in jail and had to come home early from LDS mission. Why do they suffer so? Seems pretty unfair.

My point exactly . That is what I am trying to get ideas for .why .and how

[CV75]

It seems to me people are not wanting to consider being prosperous a blessing from God .

Or the faithful just have a well-developed sense of delayed gratification, and the wicked can't recognize God's hand!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

So material wealth is not from God ? I think wealth is just one blessing from God .

I received a check today for being injured...so in many cases no, later this month I will get paid for being retired...put out to pasture. So not sure if "wealth" or lack thereof is always a blessing. Edited February 20, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[ksfisher]

Proper

intr.v., -pered, -per·ing, -pers.

To be fortunate or successful, especially in terms of one's finances; thrive.

Ok, that is your definition, but what does the word mean when Benjamin is using it?

And if our obedience is measured by earthly riches, then shouldn't the Savior have been a billionaire?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Ok, that is your definition, but what does the word mean when Benjamin is using it?

And if our obedience is measured by earthly riches, then shouldn't the Savior have been a billionaire?

Good point..."a man of sorrows, aquatinted with grief"

[CV75]

My point exactly . That is what I am trying to get ideas for .why .and how

Such is the nature of a fallen world. The commandments and blessings pertain to the kingdom not of this world. To "prosper in the land" means to enjoy the promise and sense (or assurance) of the blessings of the kingdom of the just that is not of this world* while also experiencing the injustice of a fallen world.

* (“…seek the kingdom of God, and all things shall be added according to that which is just.” – D&C 11:23).

[ksfisher]

1 Nephi 2:20-21 helps us to understand how the word prosper is used in the Book of Mormon. In verse 20 Nephi is told that if he keep the commandments he "shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise..."

in verse 21 Nephi is told that if his brethren rebel "they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord."

The opposite of prospering is being cut off from the Lord. We can therefore understand that if we are prospering we are enjoying the presence of the Lord.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Guys, apparently we shouldn't use scriptures to answer...

I would rather use God's words than my own...and sometimes when I am tempted I used the words he give me. The older I get the more wisdom I see in "his" words, than mine. So keep quoting...especially from the "Balm of Gilead". Also all men know that true wealth is defined by a good wife.

[blackstrap]

If one wants to receive a blessing,then one must obey the laws upon which that blessing is predicated. ( D&C ). If one wants to be wealthy,or strong,or popular, or spiritual,or what-have-you, one must study the laws that can deliver that blessing. ( the law of inheritance is one of them )

[Kenngo1969]

Oh, that we could reach the point of equanimity at which we could say, with Job, "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21).

[Kenngo1969]

Then my inactive sister and Catholic husband are very blessed and more than monetarily, good kids and very loving family. And my very devout LDS neighbors who are temple attending aren't so much, their son is now in jail and had to come home early from LDS mission. Why do they suffer so? Seems pretty unfair.

Life is like that, sometimes. Some of us learn how unfair life is quite early, and, of course, not all lessons are created equal. I don't recall reading anywhere in Scripture where it says, "Blessed art (and wilt be) the Mormons, whilst the Roman Catholics (and all others) shalt be cursed." I think we need to rid ourselves of the idea that obedience is a quid pro quo proposition: Job wasn't obedient so the Lord, like Santa Claus, would give him all kinds of goodies. He was obedient because he believed that, come what may, it was the right thing to do.

[pmccombs1]

Why is it that most of us think that if we obey all of the commandment God will bless us ?

Ayn Rand, among others, thought that the most basic human motivation was one of selfishness. Because God will bless us (benefit), therefore we will obey His alleged commandments (cost). If it can be proven that your assertion is true, i.e. that "most of us think...," then perhaps that is a sort of vindication of this principle. It is akin to the same reasoning that can't comprehend why an atheist would have any reason to do good.

I know that mosiah 2:22 states that .How is it then, that some people do not obey any thing and seem to be blessed ? I know of some truely good, obedient to the commanents people that are really broke and can not afford to enjoy much in life and I know some really evil people that are rich and enjoy all aspect of life .

I have my ideas but I would like to see other ideas first .

So, this is related to the problem of evil. I have two answers:

1) Because God doesn't care, or doesn't exist. Fortune and misfortune are the result of one's efforts combined with circumstances and with chance. Mathematical modeling would likely show this scenario to be very plausible, and I suggest that among the religious there is a greater incidence of "fortune" simply because of the tendency for expectations and desires to come to pass (or to be interpreted as coming to pass, or a silver lining, etc). If you accept this answer, you have to ask yourself why you adhere to a code or standard. Surprisingly enough, people find reasons even if they can't justify God as one of them.

2) Because you are meant to find your own, personal answer to the problem and live by faith and not by sight when it comes to questions where the answers can't be reliably seen. Sometimes the answer is "I don't know, but I believe anyway" even if you can't justify it to yourself based on the results (maybe you didn't get that blessing you thought you deserved). If you accept that God cares and wants you to live a certain way, but don't receive the expected blessings, then what? You still have to assess why you do things and find reasons beyond a self-centered desire for personal gain. Or perhaps you may come to see obedience, and so forth as its own reward; maybe you agree that character--something to value--is not developed in ease and quiet.

Either way, you're in the same boat. You have to struggle with the problem and come to terms with the fact that at some point you have to go beyond self-interest, or at least refine it somehow. If you don't struggle with it, and simply live life by someone else's program, then what have you got? Whatever it is, it won't be an expression of your own self. It will be an empty shell, and if ever called up to be put on the scales at some future time of judgment, it won't have much power to tilt them, and what then would be the point?

[salvar774]

Ayn Rand, among others, thought that the most basic human motivation was one of selfishness. Because God will bless us (benefit), therefore we will obey His alleged commandments (cost). If it can be proven that your assertion is true, i.e. that "most of us think...," then perhaps that is a sort of vindication of this principle. It is akin to the same reasoning that can't comprehend why an atheist would have any reason to do good.

So, this is related to the problem of evil. I have two answers:

1) Because God doesn't care, or doesn't exist. Fortune and misfortune are the result of one's efforts combined with circumstances and with chance. Mathematical modeling would likely show this scenario to be very plausible, and I suggest that among the religious there is a greater incidence of "fortune" simply because of the tendency for expectations and desires to come to pass (or to be interpreted as coming to pass, or a silver lining, etc). If you accept this answer, you have to ask yourself why you adhere to a code or standard. Surprisingly enough, people find reasons even if they can't justify God as one of them.

2) Because you are meant to find your own, personal answer to the problem and live by faith and not by sight when it comes to questions where the answers can't be reliably seen. Sometimes the answer is "I don't know, but I believe anyway" even if you can't justify it to yourself based on the results (maybe you didn't get that blessing you thought you deserved). If you accept that God cares and wants you to live a certain way, but don't receive the expected blessings, then what? You still have to assess why you do things and find reasons beyond a self-centered desire for personal gain. Or perhaps you may come to see obedience, and so forth as its own reward; maybe you agree that character--something to value--is not developed in ease and quiet.

Either way, you're in the same boat. You have to struggle with the problem and come to terms with the fact that at some point you have to go beyond self-interest, or at least refine it somehow. If you don't struggle with it, and simply live life by someone else's program, then what have you got? Whatever it is, it won't be an expression of your own self. It will be an empty shell, and if ever called up to be put on the scales at some future time of judgment, it won't have much power to tilt them, and what then would be the point?

Great answers. I disagree and will post what I believe later . Time is a comodity I do not have now but I do like the analytical air of your post .

[CV75]

I also have a strong sense that promises like that in Mosiah 2:22 is given to groups, bound by covenant, to be fulfilled in groups (Zion for example). Such a covenant has not been given in our modern times of the Restoration. Yet, even with the current welfare system, there is the promise that any saint need not go without (to the extent to suffer obstruction to his spiritual progress), and in this way we all "prosper in the land" even now, despite apparent differences in individual wealth.

[salvar774]

Ok going out on a limb here . This is the first time I tell any one my idea . I am intersted in what the great minds of this board think of it .

What I believe is a combination of my studies of the human mind , man relation with God and scripture . I say believe because I do not know. I know that God lives and he loves us . I know God is active in our lives .I know the Bible ,the Book of Mormon to be the word of God . The idea that God does not exist can not be in the least in my mind .

You have to disregard more questions believing in evolution . You have to disregard scientific laws to not believe in God . Life come from Life .Nothing just appears . It has to be created .I could go on but that is another subject .

The idea he does not care can not be in my mind either . I know he loves us .

Ok so here is my belief . this is the very short version .

God does not reward us or punish us for being good or bad . He did put rules and laws that are in play . Our minds and bodies are amazing creations . Our bodies are in auto pilot so to speak , in other word if we get sick our body heals it self . If we get cut the bleeding stops and heals .Our mind are on the same auto pilot . It is our sub-conscience mind .

God is the Creator . We being his children are junior creator . We create things every day . We create the world that surrounds us . God states obey my commandments and you shall prosper in the land , We can be sure that is true . The blessing are on auto pilot too . We just have to qualify for them and they are ours. All the blessing have been given and are ours for the taking Just put it to the test . Obey all the commandments and be guilt free . Guilt is a tool of our minds that tells us if we are keeping the commandments . Guilt will keep us from creating the world we want . Knowingly or not we make choices every day that guilt either betters us or hinders us .I believe that automatic mechanism of our minds shoot us in the foot every time we do not obey 100 percent of the commandments . So yes if you can honestly say I follow all the commandment and you are truly free from guilt you will proper in the land .

Ok now the others that do not obey but are prosperous. I believe that because they do not believe in the commandments or that some how they feel justified they feel no guilt. No guilt means access to the blessings .

In the weeping God we find a God that weeps over our misery . That means it is totally up to us to claim our birth right of our blessings as his children . He weeps at our struggles and misery and inability to obey him causing our plight

We need not worry about the evil men being successful . Judgment day is the great equalizer .

We that know that God lives, should obey all the commandments be guilt free and prosper in the land .

My belief is not knowledge it is just a belief . It has worked for me so far .

I know it is a very simplistic view and it has holes but it makes sense to me .

[CV75]

Ok going out on a limb here . This is the first time I tell any one my idea . I am intersted in what the great minds of this board think of it .

What I believe is a combination of my studies of the human mind , man relation with God and scripture . I say believe because I do not know. I know that God lives and he loves us . I know God is active in our lives .I know the Bible ,the Book of Mormon to be the word of God . The idea that God does not exist can not be in the least in my mind .

You have to disregard more questions believing in evolution . You have to disregard scientific laws to not believe in God . Life come from Life .Nothing just appears . It has to be created .I could go on but that is another subject .

The idea he does not care can not be in my mind either . I know he loves us .

Ok so here is my belief . this is the very short version .

God does not reward us or punish us for being good or bad . He did put rules and laws that are in play . Our minds and bodies are amazing creations . Our bodies are in auto pilot so to speak , in other word if we get sick our body heals it self . If we get cut the bleeding stops and heals .Our mind are on the same auto pilot . It is our sub-conscience mind .

God is the Creator . We being his children are junior creator . We create things every day . We create the world that surrounds us . God states obey my commandments and you shall prosper in the land , We can be sure that is true . The blessing are on auto pilot too . We just have to qualify for them and they are ours. All the blessing have been given and are ours for the taking Just put it to the test . Obey all the commandments and be guilt free . Guilt is a tool of our minds that tells us if we are keeping the commandments . Guilt will keep us from creating the world we want . Knowingly or not we make choices every day that guilt either betters us or hinders us .I believe that automatic mechanism of our minds shoot us in the foot every time we do not obey 100 percent of the commandments . So yes if you can honestly say I follow all the commandment and you are truly free from guilt you will proper in the land .

Ok now the others that do not obey but are prosperous. I believe that because they do not believe in the commandments or that some how they feel justified they feel no guilt. No guilt means access to the blessings .

In the weeping God we find a God that weeps over our misery . That means it is totally up to us to claim our birth right of our blessings as his children . He weeps at our struggles and misery and inability to obey him causing our plight

We need not worry about the evil men being successful . Judgment day is the great equalizer .

We that know that God lives, should obey all the commandments be guilt free and prosper in the land .

My belief is not knowledge it is just a belief . It has worked for me so far .

I know it is a very simplistic view and it has holes but it makes sense to me .

I agree that misplaced feelings of guilt can undermine our willingness and ability to prosper, and that ignoring valid guilt feelings can embolden us in seeking prosperity (at the expense of our salvation of course), and sometimes prospering illegitimately.

However, we still have righteous people that neither have misplaced feelings of guilt nor seek material wealth, but seemingly get by (and even do without or suffer somewhat) with what we consider to be very little, but they themselves profess to be blessed and satisfied.

So perhaps we need to allow for personal preference (and I suppose this goes for those righteous people that we might assess as enjoying a bit more than they need).

[salvar774]

I agree that misplaced feelings of guilt can undermine our willingness and ability to prosper, and that ignoring valid guilt feelings can embolden us in seeking prosperity (at the expense of our salvation of course), and sometimes prospering illegitimately.

However, we still have righteous people that neither have misplaced feelings of guilt nor seek material wealth, but seemingly get by (and even do without or suffer somewhat) with what we consider to be very little, but they themselves profess to be blessed and satisfied.

So perhaps we need to allow for personal preference (and I suppose this goes for those righteous people that we might assess as enjoying a bit more than they need).

That fits nicely .

[pmccombs1]

Ok going out on a limb here . This is the first time I tell any one my idea . I am intersted in what the great minds of this board think of it .

I'm not a great mind, but I can tell you what I think about it. It is not necessary for us to agree, but I think it is good when ideas and different ways of seeing and understanding are understood.

What I believe is a combination of my studies of the human mind , man relation with God and scripture . I say believe because I do not know. I know that God lives and he loves us . I know God is active in our lives .I know the Bible ,the Book of Mormon to be the word of God . The idea that God does not exist can not be in the least in my mind .

You have to disregard more questions believing in evolution . You have to disregard scientific laws to not believe in God . Life come from Life .Nothing just appears . It has to be created .I could go on but that is another subject .

The idea he does not care can not be in my mind either . I know he loves us .

Yes, this is a common argument for the existence of God. We find it all the way back to Thomas Aquinas in his five Ways, and perhaps further back still. It is the argument from order and is related to the teleological argument. All order must have an orderer; There must be a cause, and only God may be the First Cause. This argument does actually have serious problems in terms of logic and reason, and these problems have been brought up many times and cannot be ignored. Some who are unaware of these issues, or dismiss them, assume that their argument is sound and sometimes believe that atheist scientists are in some way dishonest or deliberately blind to their own scientific principles. I assure you that this is generally not the case, and that there are many atheists who have very good reasons to doubt God, just as there are many believers of all different persuasions who have very good reasons for their various and sometimes contradictory beliefs. But as you say, this is another subject for another time.

Suffice it to say that, even were we to accept that an intelligent First Cause is responsible for whatever physical laws and entities that make this complex universe possible, it does not necessarily follow that this Being would be personal nor that He (or It) would have any concern for us.

We do investigate this question in subjective ways, of course; and many receive personal assurances of a loving God through what is thought to be spiritual sense. There is no shortage of anecdotal evidence in the form of miracles and answered prayers, but as we investigate "reliable" evidence, that is to say, evidence that is able to be objectively measured, externally represented, and mathematically modeled (some definition of material prosperity, for instance), it becomes quite unclear that there is any justification to attribute any measurable phenomenon to God to confirm what certain individuals may "feel" about it personally.

You say you know certain things about God, and no doubt you have had significant religious experiences that allow you to say such things. I think these religious experiences are wonderful and necessary, but I hesitate to accept that they reveal the same sort of truth that is learned by more objective methods. In other words, I believe there ought to be an opposition to faith called "doubt," and I claim that without it, we couldn't develop or retain faith. Opposed to our faith is our doubt, which we choose not to yield to, but which nevertheless is real and keeps us humble. The moment we think we have a perfect knowledge, or certainty, then an important line of mortal development is halted.

Ok so here is my belief . this is the very short version .

God does not reward us or punish us for being good or bad . He did put rules and laws that are in play . Our minds and bodies are amazing creations . Our bodies are in auto pilot so to speak , in other word if we get sick our body heals it self . If we get cut the bleeding stops and heals .Our mind are on the same auto pilot . It is our sub-conscience mind .

God is the Creator . We being his children are junior creator . We create things every day . We create the world that surrounds us . God states obey my commandments and you shall prosper in the land , We can be sure that is true . The blessing are on auto pilot too . We just have to qualify for them and they are ours. All the blessing have been given and are ours for the taking Just put it to the test . Obey all the commandments and be guilt free . Guilt is a tool of our minds that tells us if we are keeping the commandments . Guilt will keep us from creating the world we want . Knowingly or not we make choices every day that guilt either betters us or hinders us .I believe that automatic mechanism of our minds shoot us in the foot every time we do not obey 100 percent of the commandments . So yes if you can honestly say I follow all the commandment and you are truly free from guilt you will proper in the land .

Ok now the others that do not obey but are prosperous. I believe that because they do not believe in the commandments or that some how they feel justified they feel no guilt. No guilt means access to the blessings .

In the weeping God we find a God that weeps over our misery . That means it is totally up to us to claim our birth right of our blessings as his children . He weeps at our struggles and misery and inability to obey him causing our plight

We need not worry about the evil men being successful . Judgment day is the great equalizer .

We that know that God lives, should obey all the commandments be guilt free and prosper in the land .

My belief is not knowledge it is just a belief . It has worked for me so far .

I know it is a very simplistic view and it has holes but it makes sense to me .

There is a theodicy along these same lines, that God winds things up and lets them play out as they will. It seems to fit into one idea of Free Will. Just because he doesn't interfere, it is said, doesn't mean that He doesn't care or that He isn't benevolent, or that He is unable, just as sometimes we may do similarly with our children without being malicious or uncaring toward them. It's a nice theodicy, but by no means comprehensive. That is to say, there are still some very hard questions that it doesn't overcome.

But you have made it so that Guilt is what drives the realization of God's blessings; that guilt is the test of merit. If one has guilt, then one must naturally be unworthy and not in harmony with the commandments. Thus the guiltless wicked can sneakily claim undeserved blessings, and these have to be sorted out on Judgment Day. So let us not hope for justice in this life.

This seems such an imperfect test. Why would an intelligent architect employ a faulty test to determine merit based on behavior? Maybe you have a good answer for that. But guilt can exist in the perfectly worthy individual, and be absent in the most contemptible. If God declares the requirement to be obedience, it seems to me that the test ought to be actual obedience rather than how well one feels he or she is measuring up to a particular standard said to be authorized by God as a covenant for said blessings. That would be one way know if the doctrine is from God or not; that obeying the law would reliably produce the promissed blessings. These blessings ought to be described in a manner accessible to the weakest human mind that seeks after such things. As it is, we sometimes have to re-define, or stretch our understanding to come to some satisfaction that our behavior has been rewarded as promissed.

I don't know if any of that makes sense to you.

[Ahab]

So material wealth is not from God ? I think wealth is just one blessing from God .

Consider the fact that God created this Earth for ALL of us to enjoy and yet there are some people who act as if they are entitled to more of it than some others. They don't share what is within their reach as if all there is belongs to everyone, to share. They say this is MINE MINE and some will actually shoot other people (their brothers and sisters) to hold on to what they think is "their" property. Copyrights. Intellectual property rights. No trespassing. Get out of my way!

It's all about what we call "free agency" and all of us will get what we deserve in the end from our Lord and our Father in heaven.