Man seeing God

[pfontenot000]

For a long time. I have had a problem with the doctern that Joseph Smith had seen God  because of 2 scriptures in the bible. John 1:18,and ex 33:20. Today by accident, well, I think it was by accident. I found Gen.32:30  where Jacob said he saw the face of God and lived. Does anyone know of other places in the bible that someone saw God directly and lived 

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, pfontenot000 said:

For a long time. I have had a problem with the doctern that Joseph Smith had seen God  because of 2 scriptures in the bible. John 1:18,and ex 33:20. Today by accident, well, I think it was by accident. I found Gen.32:30  where Jacob said he saw the face of God and lived. Does anyone know of other places in the bible that someone saw God directly and lived 

Exodus 33:11

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

This scripture seems to contradict verse 20.

[Glenn101]

11 minutes ago, pfontenot000 said:

For a long time. I have had a problem with the doctern that Joseph Smith had seen God  because of 2 scriptures in the bible. John 1:18,and ex 33:20. Today by accident, well, I think it was by accident. I found Gen.32:30  where Jacob said he saw the face of God and lived. Does anyone know of other places in the bible that someone saw God directly and lived 

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

[Josh Khinder]

52 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

In Numbers 12:8  Genesis 18:33,19:37 and Exodus 24:9-11 Abraham, Moses and others seen Jehovah along with Exodus 6:3 which also mention Isaac and Jacob also

 

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

 

[Okrahomer]

4 hours ago, pfontenot000 said:

For a long time. I have had a problem with the doctern that Joseph Smith had seen God  because of 2 scriptures in the bible. John 1:18,and ex 33:20. Today by accident, well, I think it was by accident. I found Gen.32:30  where Jacob said he saw the face of God and lived. Does anyone know of other places in the bible that someone saw God directly and lived 

See Acts 7:54-56

Just like the Prophet Joseph, Stephen survived the vision but not the subsequent persecution.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, pfontenot000 said:

For a long time. I have had a problem with the doctern that Joseph Smith had seen God  because of 2 scriptures in the bible. John 1:18,and ex 33:20. Today by accident, well, I think it was by accident. I found Gen.32:30  where Jacob said he saw the face of God and lived. Does anyone know of other places in the bible that someone saw God directly and lived 

Many quote the verse(s) in various scriptures to support the claim that "there shall be no man see me (God) and live". (Exodus 33:20) But in the same chapter just eight scriptures back it says, "The Lord spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto a friend.." (Exdous 33:11). Also Jacob (Israel) also saw God (as you pointed out), as well as "Seventy of the Elders of Israel"; Sound familiar? Also in John 1:18, it does say "no man hath seen God at any time", But in John 6:46, it clarifies that only "...those of God hath seen the Father...".

Please forgive any errors, I am quoting from memorey, and my studies over many years. Hope this helps...

Bill 

[Unaffiliated]

Usually they are in a transfigured state so they can bear the presence. Refer to how Moses reacted to seeing the Lord and then Satan in Moses and how he explains the difference between them.

[Glenn101]

3 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

He had a spirit body that appeared much like his mortal body of flesh. See Ether, chapter three in the Book of Mormon.

[Glenn101]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Exodus 33:11

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

This scripture seems to contradict verse 20.

It surely does. With no amplification or explanation. But maybe Moses 1:11 can explain it, i.e. that Moses was transfigured while in the tabernacle but was seeing with his natural eyes when he saw the back parts of God but not his face as noted in verses 21-23 of Exodus 33. Deuteronomy 34:10 affirms "10  And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face," so, unless the two different sets of verses are talking about spiritual versus natural we are left with a  biblical contradiction.

[Josh Khinder]

13 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

It surely does. With no amplification or explanation. But maybe Moses 1:11 can explain it, i.e. that Moses was transfigured while in the tabernacle but was seeing with his natural eyes when he saw the back parts of God but not his face as noted in verses 21-23 of Exodus 33. Deuteronomy 34:10 affirms "10  And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face," so, unless the two different sets of verses are talking about spiritual versus natural we are left with a  biblical contradiction.

There is no contradiction since the person not to be seen was God the Father and not YAHWEH 

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

There is no contradiction since the person not to be seen was God the Father and not YAHWEH 

The person to whom Moses was talking face to face in the tabernacle was Jehovah/Yahweh. I think that we agree on that. It was this same Yahweh/Jehovah that was referred to in Exodus 33:20: "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

Now if you will hearken back to Exodus 6:2-3:

Quote

2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Here the text tells us that God is Jehovah, the same one that is referred to in Exodus 33.

Glenn

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

........................ He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

 

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

There is no contradiction since the person not to be seen was God the Father and not YAHWEH 

You cite Gen 18, so how do you explain that YHWH and two angels stop by Abe's place, eat a full meal, and then continue on their way?  Does Gen 18:1 - 19:1 present us with beings with spiritual bodies who can eat like men?

Also, how may we explain the virtually identical Yahwist and Elohist Psalms, if Elohim and Yahweh are so distinct in person and character?

Psalm 40:13-17 (Hebrew 14-18)

Psalm 7O:1-5

13 Be pleased, O YHWH, to deliver me: O YHWH, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil. 15 Let them be desolate for a reward of their shame that say unto me, Aha, aha. 16 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The YHWH be magnified. 17 But I am poor and needy; yet the ADONAI [YHWH] thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my ELOHIM.

Make haste, O ELOHIM, to deliver me; make haste to help me, O YHWH. 2 Let them be ashamed and confounded that seek after my soul: let them be turned backward, and put to confusion, that desire my hurt. 3 Let them be turned back for a reward of their shame that say, Aha, aha. 4 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: and let such as love thy salvation say continually, Let ELOHIM be magnified. 5 But I am poor and needy: make haste unto me, O ELOHIM: thou art my help and my deliverer; O YHWH, make no tarrying.

[Robert F. Smith]

22 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

The person to whom Moses was talking face to face in the tabernacle was Jehovah/Yahweh. I think that we agree on that. It was this same Yahweh/Jehovah that was referred to in Exodus 33:20: "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

Now if you will hearken back to Exodus 6:2-3:

Quote

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Here the text tells us that God is Jehovah, the same one that is referred to in Exodus 33.............

Not only does the JST make of the phrase in bold a question, but some non-Mormon scholars also make it a question: "by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them?"

[Josh Khinder]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

You cite Gen 18, so how do you explain that YHWH and two angels stop by Abe's place, eat a full meal, and then continue on their way?  Does Gen 18:1 - 19:1 present us with beings with spiritual bodies who can eat like men?

Also, how may we explain the virtually identical Yahwist and Elohist Psalms, if Elohim and Yahweh are so distinct in person and character?

Psalm 40:13-17 (Hebrew 14-18)

Psalm 7O:1-5

13 Be pleased, O YHWH, to deliver me: O YHWH, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil. 15 Let them be desolate for a reward of their shame that say unto me, Aha, aha. 16 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The YHWH be magnified. 17 But I am poor and needy; yet the ADONAI [YHWH] thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my ELOHIM.

Make haste, O ELOHIM, to deliver me; make haste to help me, O YHWH. 2 Let them be ashamed and confounded that seek after my soul: let them be turned backward, and put to confusion, that desire my hurt. 3 Let them be turned back for a reward of their shame that say, Aha, aha. 4 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: and let such as love thy salvation say continually, Let ELOHIM be magnified. 5 But I am poor and needy: make haste unto me, O ELOHIM: thou art my help and my deliverer; O YHWH, make no tarrying.

God The Father and Jesus both went by the name YHWH and ELOHIM as Mormons like Alma Allred a Mormon Apologist admits 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 minute ago, Josh Khinder said:

God The Father and Jesus both went by the name YHWH and ELOHIM as Mormons like Alma Allred a Mormon Apologist admits 

Am not familiar with the name Alma Allred, presumably a "Mormon apologist," whatever that means.  However, he is more or less correct, and most biblical scholars see Elohim "Gods" and Yahweh "He who creates that which comes into existence" as a couple of Semitic titles among many for divine beings.  Titles or epithets are not really names, and are mainly descriptive of function in a hierarchy.  In military terms, a commanding officer may be at the top of the food chain, but his executive officer can fully act in his name.  Responsibility can be legally delegated.

However, that doesn't solve the problem of the identical Elohist (E) and Yahwist (J) Psalms. Many biblical scholars believe that the former were collected in the Northern Israelite kingdom, while the latter were collected in the Southern kingdom of Judah.  The Psalter is a collection of both.

[Calm]

Allred is a prof at UoU, iirc.  Teaches Institute too....or maybe that is his fulltime job.  Did a debate recently with James White.

https://www.fairmormon.org/authors/allred-alma

Edited July 18, 2018 by Calm

[Josh Khinder]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Allred is a prof at UoU, iirc.  Teaches Institute too....or maybe that is his fulltime job.  Did a debate recently with James White.

https://www.fairmormon.org/authors/allred-alma

Yes in a debate with James White he admitted Jehovah could be God The Father or Jesus like Psalm 110:1 or Elohim could be either God The Father or Jesus which goes along with Traditional Christianity 

[Calm]

I love the "admitted".