Is Tithing Only Of Your Surplus?

[rongo]

I remembering hearing that the bishop HAS to mark down whether or not every member of his ward that has paid tithing is a full tithe payer or not as part of the financial records and that if you don't go to tithing settlement, you make a lot of extra work for him because he has to spend time praying to find out what to do for everyone who doesn't come in. Is that really how it works? I've always wondering if that rumor was true or not.

The bishop has to declare for *every* member who doesn't come in and declare in person, yes. I've always seen it as one of the members' duties (do you attend your meetings?) ---- to not only choose whether to pay tithing or not, but to personally declare your tithing status. There are always, every year, special and sacred experiences that happen between bishop and members during tithing settlement, many of which have little or nothing to do with tithing. To purposely not go is not only wrong, it squanders these opportunities.

[Tacenda]

Cut and pasted below is a quote from the story called "Sacred Transformations" taken from the Dec. 2012 Ensign. It is mentioned that tithing is 10 percent of their increase. But I'm not too happy that the bishop has said to pay it before they've even been able to figure out that increase. That is the confusing part and not really going by the "increase" philosophy. Maybe others on here disagree.

"Bishop Orellana explained that tithing was 10 percent of their increase. Amado was somewhat concerned. At the time, Evelyn had a job, but he did not. “We always come up short,” Amado explained to his bishop, “but we want to pay tithing.”

Bishop Orellana responded, “Brother, the Lord has made many promises.” Together they read scriptures about the blessings that come from faithfully paying tithing, including the Lord’s words through the prophet Malachi: “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, … and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:10).

After reading these scriptures together, Bishop Orellana looked at the new convert and said, “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”

I guess our church wouldn't be as wealthy if they actually went by the scripture to pay on increase. They would probably have just enough to build modest temples and church buildings etc. not buy into business ventures etc.

[bluebell]

Cut and pasted below is a quote from the story called "Sacred Transformations" taken from the Dec. 2012 Ensign. It is mentioned that tithing is 10 percent of their increase. But I'm not too happy that the bishop has said to pay it before they've even been able to figure out that increase. That is the confusing part and not really going by the "increase" philosophy. Maybe others on here disagree.

"Bishop Orellana explained that tithing was 10 percent of their increase. Amado was somewhat concerned. At the time, Evelyn had a job, but he did not. “We always come up short,” Amado explained to his bishop, “but we want to pay tithing.”

Bishop Orellana responded, “Brother, the Lord has made many promises.” Together they read scriptures about the blessings that come from faithfully paying tithing, including the Lord’s words through the prophet Malachi: “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, … and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:10).

After reading these scriptures together, Bishop Orellana looked at the new convert and said, “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”

I guess our church wouldn't be as wealthy if they actually went by the scripture to pay on increase. They would probably have just enough to build modest temples and church buildings etc. not buy into business ventures etc.

If you really think this lowly and little of the church, and of the prophet ande apostles Tacenda, why are you a member?

For the record, the prophet and apostles have defined 'increase' as income. So, yes, they do actually go by what the scripture says.

[Tacenda]

If you really think this lowly and little of the church, and of the prophet ande apostles Tacenda, why are you a member?

For the record, the prophet and apostles have defined 'increase' as income. So, yes, they do actually go by what the scripture says.

I don't think lowly of the prophet and his apostles. I just think we need to go back to paying on increase or surplus. Sorry if it looks that way. Maybe it's a good thing our church is so wealthy. I'm just feeling sore at some things and I know that I sounded harsh. But I thought it went along with the OP on tithing being originally on the increase after taking care of our needs first. I'm LDS because of the people, but sometimes think it's a top down organization and the Stake Presidents and Bishops work so hard to keep it going as well as the higher ups but without pay like those above them. It's just a phase I'm going through. Edited December 5, 2012 by Tacenda

[Bart Burk]

I don't think lowly of the prophet and his apostles. I just think we need to go back to increase on surplus. Sorry if it looks that way. Maybe it's a good thing our church is so wealthy. I'm just feeling sore at some things and I know that I sounded harsh. But I thought it went along with the OP on tithing being originally on the increase after taking care of our needs first. I'm LDS because of the people, but sometimes think it's a top down organization and the Stake Presidents and Bishops work so hard to keep it going as well as the higher ups but without pay like those above them. It's just a phase I'm going through.

Everyone should just pay what they believe is right, declare they are full tithe payers and trust Jesus' promises. He won't let you down if you are honestly doing what you believe is right in this regard. I happen to believe the RLDS understanding reflects the teachings of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was well aware of the struggles of the poor, and The Lord revealed to him a proper understanding of charitable giving. Edited December 5, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Mark Beesley]

This is probably the wrong place to come to look for justification or how one should calculate what tithing one should pay. Paying tithing, writing that check, should inspire a feeling of peace and confidence that you are right with the Lord. If you want to pay on just your surplus, after you have paid your mortgage, utilities, car payment, insurance, food, etc., go ahead. And if, in writing that check, you enjoy a feeling of peace and confidence that you are right with the Lord, the same as if you had the paid the Lord first and then took care of your own expenses, then go for it. I think the rules regarding tithing are purposely ambiguous, so we can show the Lord that we are willing to exercise faith, and trust in Him.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[Duncan]

This is probably the wrong place to come to look for justification or how one should calculate what tithing one should pay. Paying tithing, writing that check, should inspire a feeling of peace and confidence that you are right with the Lord. If you want to pay on just your surplus, after you have paid your mortgage, utilities, car payment, insurance, food, etc., go ahead. And if, in writing that check, you enjoy a feeling of peace and confidence that you are right with the Lord, the same as if you had the paid the Lord first and then took care of your own expenses, then go for it. I think the rules regarding tithing are purposely ambiguous, so we can show the Lord that we are willing to exercise faith, and trust in Him.

I can buy that, for the record I don't hate on the Church or anything, just trying to gain clarification

[rpn]

Section 119 was about how they were to live the law of consecration, which tithing pre-empted after the saints didn't do so well at the consecration stuff. The scripture referred to what happened to the property that you didn't give lock, stock and barrel to the bishop already.

[Bart Burk]

Section 119 was given because they failed to live the law of consecration. It substituted tithing for consecration. When you consider the law of consecration, it makes sense the Lord would only require a tithing on surplus after necessary expenses. The way it is interpreted now leaves the poor at a disadvantage. There was a reason it was interpreted as Hyde interpreted it and it seems to me to reflect the practice in Nauvoo.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Bart Burk

[The Nehor]

I guess our church wouldn't be as wealthy if they actually went by the scripture to pay on increase. They would probably have just enough to build modest temples and church buildings etc. not buy into business ventures etc.

Why would having less money encourage the church to invest proportionally less in financially productive assets and more in financially unproductive assets? I would expect the opposite to be true.

[Tacenda]

I didn't think that churches needed to be corporations necessarily. But understand that if we are to build temples etc. that probably needs to happen in order for the church to function. And therefore I'm off base in this regard. And am reminded how different our church is from the regular Christian church.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider]

This is probably the wrong place to come to look for justification or how one should calculate what tithing one should pay. Paying tithing, writing that check, should inspire a feeling of peace and confidence that you are right with the Lord. If you want to pay on just your surplus, after you have paid your mortgage, utilities, car payment, insurance, food, etc., go ahead. And if, in writing that check, you enjoy a feeling of peace and confidence that you are right with the Lord, the same as if you had the paid the Lord first and then took care of your own expenses, then go for it. I think the rules regarding tithing are purposely ambiguous, so we can show the Lord that we are willing to exercise faith, and trust in Him.

Too often we turn into Pharisees when we seek to rationalize how to evade doing what we know is right and proper. Over and over again the Savior tried to teach the saints to do what is right, to follow the Spirit, to learn by the Spirit what is right. In return we try to avoid the guidance of the Spirit in favor of "reason", personal choice, and falling to the temptations of a carnal/mortal existence. It does not matter what others do or don't do in life. What matters is what you do; do you stand on the foundation of righteousness or do we try and excuse ourselves by the actions of others?

[Calm]

And am reminded how different our church is from the regular Christian church.

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/notice/episcopal-church-reports-annual-return-82-previous-decade

[Bart Burk]

I didn't think that churches needed to be corporations necessarily. But understand that if we are to build temples etc. that probably needs to happen in order for the church to function. And therefore I'm off base in this regard. And am reminded how different our church is from the regular Christian church.

All churches need money. The difference is the LDS Church turns it into a worthiness issue by restricting temple admission to only those who pay up. 10% and you are worthy -- 9% and you are scum.

[Tacenda]

All churches need money. The difference is the LDS Church turns it into a worthiness issue by restricting temple admission to only those who pay up. 10% and you are worthy -- 9% and you are scum.

It may seem that way to an outsider, but my experience isn't that we are treated like scum, we just need to adjust our priorities if we are to get into the temple.

[Mark Beesley]

All churches need money. The difference is the LDS Church turns it into a worthiness issue by restricting temple admission to only those who pay up. 10% and you are worthy -- 9% and you are scum.

First of all, the question asked in the Temple Recommend interview is whether or not you are a full tithe payer. There is no audit. There is no question about 9% or 10%, and there is no question about whether you have been paying for 1 month or 10 years.

Second, the Law of Tithing is a law like any other, such as the Law of Chastity. The fact that it has a monetary component is neither here nor there. It simply is, and you are either obedient or you are not. It is a matter of faith and obedience, not money. It is a faithless and shallow soul who sees it only in terms of dollars and cents.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[Bart Burk]

First of all, the question asked in the Temple Recommend interview is whether or not you are a full tithe payer. There is no audit. There is no question about 9% or 10%, and there is no question about whether you have been paying for 1 month or 10 years.

Second, the Law of Tithing is a law like any other, such as the Law of Chastity. The fact that it has a monetary component is neither here nor there. It simply is, and you are either obedient or you are not. It is a matter of faith and obedience, not money. It is a faithless and shallow soul who sees it only in terms of dollars and cents.

And yet I'm always seeing threads like this pop up and know for certain that many members are concerned about what exactly constitutes a tithe. So the amount of dollars and cents and how it is calculated does seem to make a difference. I've noticed there is a difference between how individual Bishops handle this with the members of their ward. I had some Bishops really lay a guilt trip on the members. Others don't. And it isn't just tithing. I've seen stake presidents grumbling in stake conference about members with cable television service who they don't think are paying enough in fast offerings. "The reason you weren't at the women's conference last night couldn't be because you were watching it on BYUtv because there is no way you could afford cable and pay so little in fast offerings."

[bluebell]

And yet I'm always seeing threads like this pop up and know for certain that many members are concerned about what exactly constitutes a tithe. So the amount of dollars and cents and how it is calculated does seem to make a difference. I've noticed there is a difference between how individual Bishops handle this with the members of their ward. I had some Bishops really lay a guilt trip on the members. Others don't. And it isn't just tithing. I've seen stake presidents grumbling in stake conference about members with cable television service who they don't think are paying enough in fast offerings. "The reason you weren't at the women's conference last night couldn't be because you were watching it on BYUtv because there is no way you could afford cable and pay so little in fast offerings."

Tithing and fast offerings are two completely different things. I'm not sure your reason for bringing up fast offerings in a thread about tithing?

[JAHS]

D&C 119:4

4."And after that, those who have thus been ^atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord."

To me "one-tenth of all their interest annually" refers to one-tenth of any money they receive throughout the year. So this verse is talking about money.

Next verse

5 "Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of ^aZion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you."

To me "surplus properties" is anything else that is not money. Any surplus items that they don't use personally (farming produce, farm animals, etc.) should also be tithed to the church.

[Bart Burk]

Tithing and fast offerings are two completely different things. I'm not sure your reason for bringing up fast offerings in a thread about tithing?

I'm just noting that local leaders have different ways of talking about money to their flock. Some are heavy-handed and some not so much.

[ERayR]

And yet I'm always seeing threads like this pop up and know for certain that many members are concerned about what exactly constitutes a tithe. So the amount of dollars and cents and how it is calculated does seem to make a difference. I've noticed there is a difference between how individual Bishops handle this with the members of their ward. I had some Bishops really lay a guilt trip on the members. Others don't. And it isn't just tithing. I've seen stake presidents grumbling in stake conference about members with cable television service who they don't think are paying enough in fast offerings. "The reason you weren't at the women's conference last night couldn't be because you were watching it on BYUtv because there is no way you could afford cable and pay so little in fast offerings."

The fact that threads like this come up from time to time attests to the fact that church leaders are not auditing members donations but are leaving the details to the individual donors to decide.

[Calm]

9% and you are scum.

Don't you think that is a significant overstatement, especially since no one besides the bishop is supposed to know and one isn't barred from taking the sacrament, giving talks and teaching or anything besides the temple...something that many don't take advantage of anyway.

[Calm]

And yet I'm always seeing threads like this pop up and know for certain that many members are concerned about what exactly constitutes a tithe.

Since it is the individual that determines whether or not they have a full tithe and no one else can know how they do it since they don't have the financial info to do so, then how does wondering how one should personally calculate what tithing is indicate anything about how one is treated by others (as scum or otherwise).

add-on: I see ERayR made the same point already.

Edited December 7, 2012 by calmoriah

[williamsmith]

Hugh Nibley talks about this in Approaching Zion. His understanding is opposite yours, otherwise tithing can't be a law of sacrifice.

Actually, when you give something that belongs to you it is "sacrifice", because you would have done something else with that money, so it is a sacrifice to give it, no matter how rich or poor one is. Although, obviously when rich it's much easier to give and less of a sacrifice, which is likely why we should then give much more.

What section 119 says is that the Saints were to give their surplus to the Bishop, and from the remainder--what is not surplus--they were to pay their tithing. As I read section 119, that seems to be what the language says: "I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion...And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually."

Yes, BUT you miss a key word "interest". Interest is what you earn from what you have, which is above what you have.

For example, you have 10 sheep when you normally have 9, you give one for the Bishop. Those 9 sheep then have babies which is interest, or "growth" from what you have, you then pay a tenth of that increase for the year, then you have a surplus likely and then you give that surplus, until you're back to 9 sheep..

That is the law of tithing, and it is a law of sacrifice.

Yes, but the rule is to pay on one's "interest", not on income. Yes, in the church we have traditionally interpreted it that way, which is not a bad thing, if you can afford it, and it's a sacrifice to you, then do it. But the minimum requirement according to the law is to pay on one's interest. For me, even doing that is a sacrifice for me.

[williamsmith]

I guess our church wouldn't be as wealthy if they actually went by the scripture to pay on increase. They would probably have just enough to build modest temples and church buildings etc. not buy into business ventures etc.

Technically and truthfully, "business ventures" and such came from "Wills" donating holdings to the Church, rich members going well beyond their donations, etc. Tithing was NEVER tapped (that I'm aware) to engage in filthy lucre.