Is Tithing Only Of Your Surplus?

[Duncan]

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng

In section 119:1-5-it says to me that you pay tithing of your surplus. In other words after you take care of your needs then you pay tithing. Thoughts?

[CV75]

http://www.lds.org/s...dc/119?lang=eng

In section 119:1-5-it says to me that you pay tithing of your surplus. In other words after you take care of your needs then you pay tithing. Thoughts?

Everything I can get away with referring to as my my own, which is above and beyond my being born naked into the world, is surplus.

[The Nehor]

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng

In section 119:1-5-it says to me that you pay tithing of your surplus. In other words after you take care of your needs then you pay tithing. Thoughts?

The command is to pay tithing on your increase which the Brethren have defined as income. Any further clarification is between you and God.

[Bart Burk]

http://www.lds.org/s...dc/119?lang=eng

In section 119:1-5-it says to me that you pay tithing of your surplus. In other words after you take care of your needs then you pay tithing. Thoughts?

That's what it says. The Joseph Smith translation of Genesis 14:39 would seem to indicate the same thing, "Wherefore Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given more than that which he had need." The fact the RLDS have always understood it this way gives some indication that was the way the tithe was understood in Nauvoo. Orson Hyde wrote, "The celestial law requires one-tenth of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (see D&C 119:4). If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (Millenial Star, 1847)

Of course any new revelation would trump the old understanding, but in any event the law seems to have been interpreted differently in 1847 than it is today.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Duncan]

The command is to pay tithing on your increase which the Brethren have defined as income. Any further clarification is between you and God.

Where does it say it's a commandment? shouldn't it be unambiguous?

[The Nehor]

That's what it says. The Joseph Smith translation of Genesis 14:39 would seem to indicate the same thing, "Wherefore Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given more than that which he had need." The fact the RLDS have always understood it this way gives some indication that was the way the tithe was understood in Nauvoo. Orson Hyde wrote, "The celestial law requires one-tenth of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (see D&C 119:4). If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (Millenial Star, 1847)

Of course any new revelation would trump the old understanding, but in any event the law seems to have been interpreted differently in 1847 than it is today.

The Abraham quote sounds more like consecration then tithing. So does bro. Hyde's quote.

[The Nehor]

Where does it say it's a commandment? shouldn't it be unambiguous?

Regularly in General Conference.

It is only ambiguous if you limit your sources.

[pmccombs1]

http://www.lds.org/s...dc/119?lang=eng

In section 119:1-5-it says to me that you pay tithing of your surplus. In other words after you take care of your needs then you pay tithing. Thoughts?

Hugh Nibley talks about this in Approaching Zion. His understanding is opposite yours, otherwise tithing can't be a law of sacrifice.

What section 119 says is that the Saints were to give their surplus to the Bishop, and from the remainder--what is not surplus--they were to pay their tithing. As I read section 119, that seems to be what the language says: "I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion...And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually."

That is the law of tithing, and it is a law of sacrifice.

[Bart Burk]

The Abraham quote sounds more like consecration then tithing. So does bro. Hyde's quote.

The major difference seems to be that those who are poor (and it seems to be a self-definition) aren't required to pay anything. The law of consecration had been done away with by the time of Hyde's quote. The law of consecration from my understanding required people to give everything to the church, not just a tithe. The law in Hyde's time seemed to be something like this:

http://www.theremnan...dshipRecord.pdf

Edited December 4, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Duncan]

Regularly in General Conference.

It is only ambiguous if you limit your sources.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said,

"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine".

(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, pp.203-04).

if it doesn't say it's a commandment in the scriptures then it shouldn't matter where something is said

[The Nehor]

President Joseph Fielding Smith said,

"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine".

(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, pp.203-04).

if it doesn't say it's a commandment in the scriptures then it shouldn't matter where something is said

Not true. It says to throw out anything in contradiction to the Revelations. Tithing is not in contradiction. If the prophet were to tomorrow extend the Priesthood to all worthy women it can be seen that this is not in contradiction to any revelations and fits neatly. If the prophet were to announce that God does not exist and that we should all become Scientologists that does contradict the Revelations and can be safely discounted.

[Duncan]

Not true. It says to throw out anything in contradiction to the Revelations. Tithing is not in contradiction. If the prophet were to tomorrow extend the Priesthood to all worthy women it can be seen that this is not in contradiction to any revelations and fits neatly. If the prophet were to announce that God does not exist and that we should all become Scientologists that does contradict the Revelations and can be safely discounted.

well, if the scriptures say nothing about tithing being a commandment and someone or some people say it is then per Pres. Smith'd counsel we can throw it out because it doesn't resemble anything in the scriptures, besides of which it says nothing in the scriptures to pay God first and then everything will come out all hunky dunky but we hear that constantly

[rongo]

What do you do with the worthiness interview questions (i.e., temple, patriarchal blessing, etc.) then? The authoritative interpretation of the scriptures' meaning on tithing is codified in the interviews.

[Calm]

The command is to pay tithing on your increase which the Brethren have defined as income. Any further clarification is between you and God.

Since "need" is often individually determined...some think they need video games for decent quality of life, I read a recent article that more or less claimed people needed $75000 a year income to be happy....I think defining it as income makes for less confusion and was a wise move. Now all they have to argue over is net or gross.

[The Nehor]

well, if the scriptures say nothing about tithing being a commandment and someone or some people say it is then per Pres. Smith'd counsel we can throw it out because it doesn't resemble anything in the scriptures, besides of which it says nothing in the scriptures to pay God first and then everything will come out all hunky dunky but we hear that constantly

No, it says contradiction is required to throw it out. Not being there is not enough.

As for paying God and getting blessings that IS in the in scriptures. Read Malachi.

[Calm]

President Joseph Fielding Smith said,

"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine".

(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, pp.203-04).

if it doesn't say it's a commandment in the scriptures then it shouldn't matter where something is said

You don't believe in continuing revelation?

[Duncan]

What do you do with the worthiness interview questions (i.e., temple, patriarchal blessing, etc.) then? The authoritative interpretation of the scriptures' meaning on tithing is codified in the interviews.

I never go to tithing settlement, the last time I went the Bishop gave me some sheet to click if I am a full tithe payer or not and I clicked yes because I am and will continue to be-kind of thought it was a waste of time! In TR interviews I just say yes and they move on to ask If I have ever killed anyone recently and nope! good on that! But then again sometimes you get asked the same question a different way. I recall being asked once in tithing are you a full tithe aper as you understand it? and others are just are you a full tithe payer

[Duncan]

You don't believe in continuing revelation?

I do! it just seems there is room for ambiguity for tithing

[Duncan]

No, it says contradiction is required to throw it out. Not being there is not enough.

As for paying God and getting blessings that IS in the in scriptures. Read Malachi.

it doesn't say contradiction it says conflict. it seems to me that it's a conflict if you have one that says nothing about being a commandment and the other it says it is

so is paying on your surplus after your needs are met

[The Nehor]

it doesn't say contradiction it says conflict. it seems to me that it's a conflict if you have one that says nothing about being a commandment and the other it says it is

so is paying on your surplus after your needs are met

That is not a conflict either. By that definition ever Apostle is also in conflict with every other Apostle because they all have not spoken on every topic.

[rongo]

I never go to tithing settlement, the last time I went the Bishop gave me some sheet to click if I am a full tithe payer or not and I clicked yes because I am and will continue to be-kind of thought it was a waste of time! In TR interviews I just say yes and they move on to ask If I have ever killed anyone recently and nope! good on that! But then again sometimes you get asked the same question a different way. I recall being asked once in tithing are you a full tithe aper as you understand it? and others are just are you a full tithe payer

I gently call you to repentance. You should go to tithing settlement, even if it seems like a waste of time to you, or perfunctory and superficial on the bishop's end. You are supposed to account for your tithing status in person, and that's part of his keys (even when it seems like it's going through the motions).

'Tis the season! You will feel the spirit if you go in ---- and it should be going on right now in your ward.

[Duncan]

I gently call you to repentance. You should go to tithing settlement, even if it seems like a waste of time to you, or perfunctory and superficial on the bishop's end. You are supposed to account for your tithing status in person, and that's part of his keys (even when it seems like it's going through the motions).

'Tis the season! You will feel the spirit if you go in ---- and it should be going on right now in your ward.

he's on holidays in Houston! but when he comes back i'll go!

[Duncan]

That is not a conflict either. By that definition ever Apostle is also in conflict with every other Apostle because they all have not spoken on every topic.

There is a whole syndicate! I stumbled onto something! Should I disregard Pres. Smith's statement or disregard DC119? which?

[bluebell]

I gently call you to repentance. You should go to tithing settlement, even if it seems like a waste of time to you, or perfunctory and superficial on the bishop's end. You are supposed to account for your tithing status in person, and that's part of his keys (even when it seems like it's going through the motions).

'Tis the season! You will feel the spirit if you go in ---- and it should be going on right now in your ward.

I remembering hearing that the bishop HAS to mark down whether or not every member of his ward that has paid tithing is a full tithe payer or not as part of the financial records and that if you don't go to tithing settlement, you make a lot of extra work for him because he has to spend time praying to find out what to do for everyone who doesn't come in. Is that really how it works? I've always wondering if that rumor was true or not.

[Bart Burk]

There is a whole syndicate! I stumbled onto something! Should I disregard Pres. Smith's statement or disregard DC119? which?

I suggest you pray about it and do what God tells you to do. If he doesn't answer your prayer then do what your head tells you to do. You will be held accountable for how you answer the question so answer it yourself.