Lds Church Subsidiary And Guns

[Duncan]

Right now in the Church it is wrong to contend and to "hurt". We are already living as Isaiah wrote we should.

well good! I just want to keep it that way

[thesometimesaint]

Darren10:

thesometimesaint #170;

I was implying as to whether or not the government should get involved and prohibit ammunition purchases since it doesn't "seem" reasonable? Of course you yourself are free to wonder why people need tons of ammo or not.

My point with ammonia is precisely as you pointed out: it can be deadly. So should the governmnet ban mass purchases of ammonia?

How is buying guns from KSL classified ads hurting people?

Why shouldn't we control the amount of ammo the mentally ill, children, and criminals have access to? We already control the access to weapons of mass destruction, and military grade weapons like Tanks, F-22's, Grenades, and Firearms with the ability to fire automatically. Because those weapons have no other reasonable purpose outside of the military. What reasonable nonmilitary purpose is there in having 6000 rounds and 100 round magazine extensions? Say I want a thermonuclear device. I'm no criminal, I'm not a child, and am not mentally ill. What if any reasonable limits should be placed on me from having that bomb?

No; the government should not ban the sales and use of ammonia based cleaning products. The reasonable common sense use of them have uses far beyond that of the military. Heck water kills too it is called drowning. No one is advocating that the government ban the sale of and use of water. But all of us do recognize the necessity of teaching our kids to swim, and having life guards at public pools. We also limit access to private ones by the use of fences and gates.

Because there are no controls on whom you could buy it from. It is the equivalent of tearing down your fences and gates around your pool and inviting everyone over.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Darren10:

Why shouldn't we control the amount of ammo the mentally ill, children, and criminals have access to? We already control the access to weapons of mass destruction, and military grade weapons like Tanks, F-22's, Grenades, and Firearms with the ability to fire automatically.

Did not know he had them? But to OP the Church was not involved nor ever will be. All guns bought in guns stores require background checks and to acquire an automatic weapon requires a special background check. An F-22 requires millions of $'s.

[blackstrap]

Go buy a truckload of ammonia-based fertilizer and see if any red flags come up.

[treehugger]

What reasonable purpose.is there to buying in bulk?

The reasonable purpose for a 100 round mag is not having to reload. Reloading gets lead on the hands. And reloading a mag takes away from the fun of shooting.

Though one thought on possessions and need under the Law of Concecration one is only entitled to what they need; surplus belongs to the Church.

[ERayR]

What reasonable purpose.is there to buying in bulk?

The reasonable purpose for a 100 round mag is not having to reload. Reloading gets lead on the hands. And reloading a mag takes away from the fun of shooting.

Though one thought on possessions and need under the Law of Concecration one is only entitled to what they need; surplus belongs to the Church.

When one buys in bulk you usually get a price break depending on how much is purchased. A farmer with a 1000 acres really does have to buy in bulk, so there are legitimate reason for truckload purchases of ammonium nitrates.

It has been some years now since I studied the law of consecration but as I remember you get to supply your wants and needs before turning over your excess.

[Calm]

I've personally never found fencing that much fun... what with digging the holes,tamping the posts in, stretching the wire,fighting mosquitos,etc. it can be a real pain.

.

I was about to get very mad at you.....

[Calm]

Wouldn't it be as reasonable to think about sharing ammo with others as well as food in a time of disaster?

[thesometimesaint]

Darren10:

Good point. I wonder how many rounds the sometimessaint went through to get so proficient in firearms.

Just enough.

[Darren10]

Darren10:

Just enough.

5,999?

[thesometimesaint]

Probably pretty close. Was always a good shot. Got my marksman medal in the military. Then constantly practiced. I've lost track of how many rounds I've fired over the years.

[CQUIRK]

I have come to reality, let me tellya. I live in a city that was voted most violent in Canada IIRC. But I haven't ever seen any violent crime while living here. Reality now and reality in the future don't appear to be the same.

Which tells me that there's more bias in polls and surveys then you may realize.

And another reason why Canada was completely justified in eliminating the Long-Gun Registry

Isaiah 11: 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Question is, can that verse be applied to before the End Times?

Mosiah 3:19- For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth of the natural man...

I don't think you really understand at all, Duncan.

Why wait until that day when you can do something about it now?

Because it would be vain and petty to do so; as I said, its human nature to quarrel and fight, in fact its more so a part of us then the animal urge to procreate. Also- many of those that claim to oppose war, violence, and even social injustice themselves, have committeed or have no qualms with committing violent and harmful acts to others in order to further their cause.

I know that war and violence are here and will probably continue but that doesn't mean I need to hate and hurt and destroy. FWIW, I don't mind having a no long gun registry

That's your choice, but that doesn't mean you should try to force your beliefs upon others.

And also, guns are not something for hatred and destruction; they are simply a tool that can be used for either good or evil, just like knives and cars can be used for both purposes, and can also take lives.

But to suppress the right to operate, or own, such tools is quite akin to what The Adversary intended for mankind.

[Darren10]

Probably pretty close. Was always a good shot. Got my marksman medal in the military. Then constantly practiced. I've lost track of how many rounds I've fired over the years.

Well, I'm glad you were able to get your 6,000 rounds of ammo fired off

[Darren10]

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2012/07/27/gun_carrying_man_stops_stabbing_spree_in_utah

Hope he bought his gun through the KSL classified ads.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2012/07/27/gun_carrying_man_stops_stabbing_spree_in_utah

Hope he bought his gun through the KSL classified ads.

No one likes to report where and how often guns save lives. it is not PC...99.9 percent on legal gun owners never use a gun in a violent way. if we unarm goos people...they will be left defencless. A few months ago I saw a kid breaking into cars before dawn in my community...he had two guns on him. Gun laws are in place...criminals don't obey them.

[thesometimesaint]

With 300,000,000 guns and 30,000 deaths and untold thousands more injured by firearms in this country you'd think we'd be the most peaceful people on earth. But we're not.

The easiest thing in the world to make is a zip gun.

Does that speak to the criminal or to the ease by which they can get guns?

Ps;

Israel has strict gun laws

By John Aravosis on 7/27/2012 07:30:00 PM

In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk. And while political violence in Israel is all too common and gun violence is a growing problem, random shootings of strangers – like the Aurora massacre -- are virtually unheard-of here.

Unlike in the United States, where the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution’s Second Amendment, Israel’s department of public security considers gun ownership a privilege, not a right. Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.

Not all Israelis, however, may own guns. In order to own a pistol, an Israeli must for two years have been either a captain in the army or a former lieutenant colonel. Israelis with an equivalent rank in other security organizations may also own a pistol.

In addition, residents of West Bank settlements, and those who work there,

[Stargazer]

The easiest thing in the world to make is a zip gun.

Really? But why would anyone want to if they can buy a real one much easier? Zip guns are found inside prisons, and are found there despite the complete lack of legal gun ownership by the general population.

You think that forbidding arms is going to make people sooo much more peaceful. It can not. Norway has very strict firearms regulation, but as you well know, that didn't stop that guy last year from killing a whole bunch of people.

I will be more than happy to turn in my guns -- as soon as the Milennium has been rung in. Until then I will keep them, along with about 6,000 rounds of ammo.

I am not sure this has been mentioned in this thread, but the odd thing about the crime rate in the USA is that despite several gun laws (such as the so-called assault weapons ban and the magazine size restriction) having expired a few years back, and despite what happened in Aurora Colorado, the crime rate continues to decline, even in such high-crime cities like Washington, DC, where, incidentally, the Supreme Court recently ruled that they couldn't be quite as draconian about their gun laws as they had been previously.

And Duncan, crime rates in Canada have gone down as well, despite the gun laws remaining the same.

The point of the above is this: it is not the prevalence of guns that causes crime. It appears to be something else entirely. Maybe Canadians and the Swiss are inherently more law-abiding?

[Darren10]

With 300,000,000 guns and 30,000 deaths and untold thousands more injured by firearms in this country you'd think we'd be the most peaceful people on earth. But we're not.

The easiest thing in the world to make is a zip gun.

Does that speak to the criminal or to the ease by which they can get guns?

Ps;

Israel has strict gun laws

By John Aravosis on 7/27/2012 07:30:00 PM

In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk. And while political violence in Israel is all too common and gun violence is a growing problem, random shootings of strangers – like the Aurora massacre -- are virtually unheard-of here.

Unlike in the United States, where the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution’s Second Amendment, Israel’s department of public security considers gun ownership a privilege, not a right. Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.

Not all Israelis, however, may own guns. In order to own a pistol, an Israeli must for two years have been either a captain in the army or a former lieutenant colonel. Israelis with an equivalent rank in other security organizations may also own a pistol.

In addition, residents of West Bank settlements, and those who work there,

I don't know about zip guns but Stargazer sems to and made some good points. As for Isreal, joining the military is a requirement and so I can see how despite their strict gun laws, many still own guns. And Isreal isn't exactly a bedrock of a non-violent country, especially the West Bank.

In the end, how has buying guns from the KSL classified ads hurt anyone?

[thesometimesaint]

Stargazer:

It is also easier to get illicit drugs in prison. Are you recommending that we put even more drugs on the street?

The Norway tragedy is a rarity in Norway.

The authorities just stopped another massacre before it happened in Maryland.

Friday, July 27, 2012

<a href="http://www.americablog.com/2012/07/man-with-two-dozen-firearms-thousands.html">Man with two dozen firearms, thousands of rounds of ammunition, arrested for threatening copycat murder spree

By John Aravosis on 7/27/2012 10:40:00 PM

|

NBC Washington reports that Prescott made more than one call to a co-worker to issue his threats, one of which was recounted to the local affiliate of being to the effect of: "You don't know who the real joker is; I am the real joker." The reference to the "joker" comes one week after suspected Colorado gunman James Holmes reportedly delivered a similar message to police after being arrested.

Police found the 28-year-old Prescott in his Crofton home Thursday wearing a shirt that read "Guns don’t kill people, I do."

He had thousands of rounds of ammunition and 25-odd firearms, including semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns

, according to ABC News. Police said they believe Prescott was prepared to carry out his threatened attack and say they likely prevented a massacre.

Prescott is currently undergoing a psychological evaluation in Annapolis.

I'm not asking you to turn in your guns. I'm asking that we keep the guns out of hands of children, criminals, and the mentally ill. That AK-47's, AR-15's and other military grade weapons belong in the hands of the military, and not in the hands of the civilian population.

There isn't just one cause of the decline in crime in the US. Factors include better policing, anti-gang efforts, an aging population, easier access to mental health professionals, etc..

Probably are. However the prevalence of guns in the hands of those that have no business having them turns a low level thug into a mass murderer.

[ERayR]

Stargazer:

I'm not asking you to turn in your guns. I'm asking that we keep the guns out of hands of children, criminals, and the mentally ill. That AK-47's, AR-15's and other military grade weapons belong in the hands of the military, and not in the hands of the civilian population.

How are you suggesting we "keep the guns out of hands of children, criminals, and the mentally ill." ? It is already illegal for them to have them. Just because a rifle has the look of an AK-47 or AR-15 does not mean they are military grade weapons. I guess you must have missed the post that explained these civilian made look a likes are ordinary rifles repackaged. They are look a likes See post #44.

There isn't just one cause of the decline in crime in the US. Factors include better policing, anti-gang efforts, an aging population, easier access to mental health professionals, etc..

Probably are. However the prevalence of guns in the hands of those that have no business having them turns a low level thug into a mass murderer.

Again what do you propose to do to keep the guns out of the hands of those "that have no business having them"? There are already laws prohibiting them from having them.

Edited to Add: tss please answer your CFR on the BSA thread.

[Anijen]

It is also easier to get illicit drugs in prison. Are you recommending that we put even more drugs on the street?

You build up a straw man (drugs in the street) and then classically ask the question; "Are you recommending that we put even more drugs on the street?"

The topic is guns. Please do not build up a straw man to enhance your opinion. We all recognize the harm of illegal drugs on the street but it is not the topic.

It is already illegal for children, criminals, and the mentally ill to buy a gun. If they bought them it was by illegal means. How do you make it more illegal? I do not advocate breaking any law in fact I discourage it.

[Nathair/|\]

This is probably going to break Duncan's streak, but here goes:

(I'm not answering any specific poster, just some general themes.)

There is one very important reason why every free person should have access to and skill with weaponry, even military weaponry. It's the same reason why God and the founders gave us the second amendment in the first place. We should all remember how President Buchanan demonstrated that need. We were blessed to get through that incident without combat, but I don't think we should take it for granted that things will be the same next time.

[ERayR]

This is probably going to break Duncan's streak, but here goes:

(I'm not answering any specific poster, just some general themes.)

There is one very important reason why every free person should have access to and skill with weaponry, even military weaponry. It's the same reason why God and the founders gave us the second amendment in the first place. We should all remember how President Buchanan demonstrated that need. We were blessed to get through that incident without combat, but I don't think we should take it for granted that things will be the same next time.

Good example and if the saints had not had weopons of their own and shown a willingness to use them it would very likely have turned out much different.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

With 300,000,000 guns and 30,000 deaths and untold thousands more injured by firearms in this country you'd think we'd be the most peaceful people on earth. But we're not.

The easiest thing in the world to make is a zip gun.

Does that speak to the criminal or to the ease by which they can get guns?

Ps;

Israel has strict gun laws

By John Aravosis on 7/27/2012 07:30:00 PM

In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk. And while political violence in Israel is all too common and gun violence is a growing problem, random shootings of strangers – like the Aurora massacre -- are virtually unheard-of here.

Unlike in the United States, where the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution’s Second Amendment, Israel’s department of public security considers gun ownership a privilege, not a right. Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.

Not all Israelis, however, may own guns. In order to own a pistol, an Israeli must for two years have been either a captain in the army or a former lieutenant colonel. Israelis with an equivalent rank in other security organizations may also own a pistol.

In addition, residents of West Bank settlements, and those who work there,

I think I messed up your post trying to answer...but what is the point this has just become political and the OP left left behind. I own many guns and do not like being seen as the problem to the ills of the world. I get it those of us who own guns are criminal.

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

I too own a gun, a rather big and powerful one at that. As I said I have no desire for you, Stargazer, Jeff Holt, ERayR, or myself to be required to turn in our guns. By the same token lethal weapons should be kept out of the hands of those that have no business having them. We have laws regulating whom can drive on the public roads. Shouldn't we at least have laws highly regulating machines, and the people whom use them, whose only purpose is to kill?