Lds Church Subsidiary And Guns

[ERayR]

if you're mad enough at someone you can kill them with almost anything. Handguns are stupid, I can see the cops needing them but I think we in Canad have a no handgun policy

My grandkids and I have a good time going to the range and "plinking" with rifles and handguns.

[ERayR]

Well, I am all in favor for regulation of automobiles and automobile owners, yet I can't fathom why anyone needs a vehicle that can go faster than 60 mph, police or military aside. In saying that, I think that people living in the country where some speed limits are 70 mph, perhaps they would appreciate faster cars, but those live in the city don't need cars that can go faster than 35 mph, and in some cities they shouldn't be permitted to keep cars at all, and should use public transit only.

That being said, why do you think ought to be done about people wanting semi-automatic weapons? Btw, automatic weapons are completely illegal in some states and in others only people specially licensed by the ATF may own them (outside of law enforcement). Do you actually have an objective reason for not wanting private citizens to own semi-automatic rifles? Other than just having an uncomfortable feeling about weapons in general? And keep in mind that "semi-automatic" means that after one trigger pull, firing one round, the weapon uses gas or recoil to load another, and a large percentage of privately-owned firearms are semi-automatic.

My .22 rifle is a semi-automatic with 10 shot clip. Why is a semi automatic rifle any different than a single shot?

[ERayR]

I know in a perfect world guns and hatred and violence won't exist but it would be nice to live in some society like that. I can't even concieve of a reaosn why someone needs a machine gun like weapon. if people want that stuff doesn't that send signals to others that maybe something is potentially amiss? Again I know the realities of life but people can't have everything they want and if you hurt other people with something it should get taken away

You are conflating two different issues. Owning a firearm and being responsible. I am fully in agreement that if someone shows themselves irresponsible they should be held accountable. That goes for their automobiles as well as their firearms.

Duncan did you ever go to a firing range and shoot? Shooting is a legitimate sport. Last I looked it was even an Olympic event.

[treehugger]

I don't mean to be a post hog but I couldnt resist posting this image;

I wonder if we could have a caption contest. Mine might be "eleven reasons to vote for Mitt" (eleven rifles).

Hoping, that Romney being a Republican, and therefore supportive of private firearm ownership is the reason I would vote for Romney. So for me you caption is spot on.

As for comparing American stats to other Western Countries....its apples and oranges. A very unique people founded the United States, thus there is no real comparison of Americans to other peoples in terms of firearm ownership.

[treehugger]

KSL has a classified section where individuals put items up for sale. My son has bought many items there. And this is the Mormon Church facilitating unregulated guns? Some people are really desperate for a story.

Here here!

[ERayR]

While I believe guns should be allowed, I think there should be strict enforcement of strict laws dealing with storage and use of guns to prevent children and those not trained in their use from getting possession of them without oversight by someone who is trained not only in their use, but in teaching their use.

Calmoriah how do you enforce something like that without having periodic home inspections? While they are inspecting your gun storage they can inspect to see if your household chemicals are properly stored. Throw in a short inspection to see if the kitchen cutlery is properly stored so the kids can't get them, well you see. How much control are yo willing to tolerate?

The proper procedure is education and as we have seen with drivers licenses we can reduce problems but we can't eliminate them.

[ERayR]

Many people collect guns simply because they love shooting them (at targets, not people) and because they love guns. Owning or wanting a gun, even guns that are capable of high volume shooting, doesn't mean the person is motivated by hatred or violence. Often they just love guns the same way that other people love cars, for example. For many, collecting guns is like collecting stamps-they want all types, just for the love of the genre.

And i think we also have to realize that someone who goes into a building and tries to kill as many people they don't know as possible for no reason whatsoever is not mentally stable. That means they are going to be dangerous whether they have access to guns or not. I would imagine that if the CO shooter had not been able to get guns to commit his crime with, that he would have used a bomb (since he was clearly capable of making them).

If someone WANTS to hurt people, not having a gun is probably not going to stop them. There are thousands of ways to kill mass numbers of people under the sun. No guns does not automatically equal no violence.

One of the kindest, gentlest men I ever knew was my nephew. He was a big guy with a beard who lived to tease the kids and they all loved it. He was also a man that carried a handgun on his belt wherever he went he was never without it.

[Darren10]

While I believe guns should be allowed, I think there should be strict enforcement of strict laws dealing with storage and use of guns to prevent children and those not trained in their use from getting possession of them without oversight by someone who is trained not only in their use, but in teaching their use.

Yes. There should be legal consequences for things like causally leaving a gun out in the open, let's say, on the kitchen table and the gun was used to kill an innocent person. I'm not so keen over legally restricting gun access to the point that it's cumbersome to access them quickly when needed. The first thing aany gun owner should do is to properly train his or her children and everyone who will be living in his or her home on how to use guns. All my children know how to use guns and even if one were casually left out, there would be little reason to worry about any of them misusing it. Even the little ones will tell an adult immediately.

[Darren10]

I don't mean to be a post hog but I couldnt resist posting this image;

I wonder if we could have a caption contest. Mine might be "eleven reasons to vote for Mitt" (eleven rifles).

That's a sweet picture. Romney's got my vote!!!

Here's a better one:

[thesometimesaint]

One would think that Colorado gun laws would be very strict after Columbine. You'd be wrong.

http://www.colorado....N/1251594549010

Sure more guns in a darkened, smoke filled, theater with more men armed to the teeth, wearing full body armor and gas masks. What could possibly go wrong?

[Darren10]

Before we can really extropolate anything from this information, we have to know how many of these gun related homicides were committed by people who could 1)legally own a gun and 2) would obey a no-gun law if such was in place. Laws don't necessarily determine criminal activity. I mean, murder is already illegal and that certain didn't stop any of these people from killing anyone, right?

I would guess that that the majority of these murders would still have been committed even if guns were illegal. I would guess that many of them were committed by people for whom owning a gun already was illegal.

That's correct. Gun ownership alone does not constitute gun violence. There are many other viariables involved. And as pointed out several times on this thread, restricting gun purchases will do nothing to curb gun violence. It'll only empower the bad guys.

[bluebell]

One would think that Colorado gun laws would be very strict after Columbine. You'd be wrong.

http://www.colorado....N/1251594549010

What was their gun law before Columbine?

Sure more guns in a darkened, smoke filled, theater with more men armed to the teeth, wearing full body armor and gas masks. What could possibly go wrong?

Who is advocating people wearing full body armor and gas masks to the theater?

However dumb such an argument is, in this one case, if such had been the reality, it's likely that the only fatality in the theater would have been the guy trying to kill everyone else.

[Darren10]

Sure more guns in a darkened, smoke filled, theater with more men armed to the teeth, wearing full body armor and gas masks. What could possibly go wrong?

There's little to worry what would go wrong but much that much would go right. James Holmes went int the theater "armed to the teeth" and everyone else, who were there just ot enjoy a movie (or two for those who sneek into other flicks - you KNOW who you are), and obeyed the rules by not bringing a gun into the theater. All it would take would be one shot from one gun to end his rampage. Seung-Hoi Co was heavily armed and was resisted by Liviu Librescu, a Holocaust survivor (not armed), before Cho lined up his victims and shot them one by one. What if the Librescu was armed? Nidal Malik Hasan was heavily armed o n a military base (I was actually born there). So why sdid the victims have to wait for regular police to react? That's because of the military's no gun policy. Several well train people died at the hand of an evil assailant because these people were not allowed to carry a gun with them. What if just one other person had a gun?

Note the patter: a) A person decides to go ona killing spree; b) person arms himself "to the teeth"; c) perp chooses a gun free zone site; d) person kills as many as possible. Lots of these tragedies would be reduced by simply upholding the principle of the 2nd Amendment.

[thesometimesaint]

Bluebell:

Fact is that is what that young man did. That made him relatively invulnerable to anything but very high powered rifles.

What are you going to shoot at in a darkened smoke filled room?

[Ares]

Please turn this back to the topic of the LDS Church subsidiary and Guns and away from a general debate on gun control.

[Darren10]

What are you going to shoot at in a darkened smoke filled room?

That would be the shooter. Even if it does not kill him (I bet I could find a way given time), it would distract him and allow many others to get away.

[Darren10]

Ares is right, this has become too polticial. I'm done unless I can tie this to LDS subsidiary selling guns in a bad way.

[ERayR]

One would think that Colorado gun laws would be very strict after Columbine. You'd be wrong.

http://www.colorado....N/1251594549010

Sure more guns in a darkened, smoke filled, theater with more men armed to the teeth, wearing full body armor and gas masks. What could possibly go wrong?

You let your imagination run wild and engage in hyperbole.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

http://blogs.detroitnews.com/politics/2012/07/22/the-mormon-church-sells-unregulated-guns/

I was wondering if anyone knows about the truthfulness of this story. It would be sad and disgusting that if any business associated with the church sells unregulated guns.

Do you know that the greatest gun manufacturer in the world was Mormon and lived in Nauvoo. Him and his sons have a museum in Ogden. I own many of his models. Guns are not evil, people are. In Nauvoo he used to carve "Holiness to the Lord" on rifles to remind people not to use them for violence, only for hunting food. As far as the story...don't know. John Browning used his money to build many churches in Denmark. He was a great man of faith.

[bluebell]

Bluebell:

Fact is that is what that young man did. That made him relatively invulnerable to anything but very high powered rifles.

But he did it with the purpose of trying to kill as many people as possible.

You can't logically compare him to people who would go into a theater armed for protection.

What are you going to shoot at in a darkened smoke filled room?

Probably the guy actively trying to kill your loved ones.

[Deborah]

I find it interesting that several of those who were killed were military or ex-military who died shielding others. Somehow I think if these men and women had guns they would have known what they were doing.

[thesometimesaint]

The US military is the most efficient killing machine the world has ever known. Why do you think they send up flares to light up the night sky, and smoke bombs to camouflage their own movements? It makes our side less visible and their side more visible. No pie in the sky Rambo superhero antics. What are you going to shot at in a darkened, smoke filled, crowded theater?

I've been in firefights. The first thing you do is seek cover. Ideally where you can see them and they can't see you.

[bluebell]

I've been in firefights. The first thing you do is seek cover. Ideally where you can see them and they can't see you.

Apparently, for the ex-military who died trying to cover their loved ones, seeking cover is not always the first thing people do who have been in firefights.

And now i'll bow out since I see that Ares has requested we get back to the main topic.

[Calm]

Calmoriah how do you enforce something like that without having periodic home inspections? While they are inspecting your gun storage they can inspect to see if your household chemicals are properly stored. Throw in a short inspection to see if the kitchen cutlery is properly stored so the kids can't get them, well you see. How much control are yo willing to tolerate?

The proper procedure is education and as we have seen with drivers licenses we can reduce problems but we can't eliminate them.

Extreme fines when the accidents happen and incentives for doing it right. People could volunteer for inspections to get a discount on fees or something.

I'm not so keen over legally restricting gun access to the point that it's cumbersome to access them quickly when needed.

That would defeat the purpose, maybe some improved tech could help here that allows a gun to stay loaded to save time if locked in something accessible to only the owner (thumbprint lock or something)? Education is a big thing, but kids have friends over...

Now I am done answering questions, I'll drop the subject as well.

[Calm]

Do you know that the greatest gun manufacturer in the world was Mormon and lived in Nauvoo. Him and his sons have a museum in Ogden. I own many of his models. Guns are not evil, people are. In Nauvoo he used to carve "Holiness to the Lord" on rifles to remind people not to use them for violence, only for hunting food. As far as the story...don't know. John Browning used his money to build many churches in Denmark. He was a great man of faith.

Nice tie in, Pa Pa, if I had a rep point I would give it to you. Will try and remember to come back later.