Lds Church Subsidiary And Guns

[Stargazer]

The only thing I know is that when you have an armed citizenry gun violence declines. Can't find it now but there was some research on this a few years ago.

That would be More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott.

[Buzzard]

Actually, it was heartening to read the comments under the article. I counted one semi-literate anti- rant and one person supporting the premise of the article. Every other of the dozens of commenters was ripping the article and its author to shreds. Couldn't have happened to a nicer gal.

[Darren10]

i can see your point and all but I don't recall any cars being driven into theatres either.

Third Time Won't Be a Charm - Most Daring

Close enough.

1983 Beirut barracks bombing

The Beirut Barracks Bombing (October 23, 1983 in Beirut, Lebanon) occurred during the Lebanese Civil War, when two truck bombs struck separate buildings housing United States and French military forces—members of the Multinational Force in Lebanon—killing 299 American and French servicemen. The organization Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing.

Vehicles can be deadly.

[Darren10]

I am not talking about cars or houses or clothes but weapons-weapons are built to inflict pain on an animal or sadly people. I don't own a weapon but my granddad did and he used it to hunt for food and to kill wolves and stuff that threatened his livestock so those needs I see but he didn't own a Gatling gun to do it

And if he did own a gatling gun...so what? Whould he have ran out and shot people with it? Somerone like your grandfather would be a perfeclty welcomed neighbor of mine. Gatling gun or not.

[Darren10]

Powerful guns are safe even in the hands of androids from the future.

/Sorry about the "d-word"

[Darren10]

Stargazer #25;

Joe Horn became a local celebrity here in Houston, TX after he shot two would be burglers trying to break into his neighbor's home. He was cleared of charges of ciminal behavior. Good for him.

[Darren10]

some might say that gun violence is a sign of uncivilized society-yeah the Swiss-terrible cheese!

Switzerland has a very high number of gun ownership. In fact, I think it's almost legally required.

[Darren10]

if you're mad enough at someone you can kill them with almost anything. Handguns are stupid, I can see the cops needing them but I think we in Canad have a no handgun policy

I think you're right about Canada having a no gun enforcement..

The crime rate went down slightly in 2009, however, Statistics Canada reported that the lower rate was largely driven by declines in three areas of property crime; vehicle theft, mischief and break-ins. John Turner, chief of Statscan's policing services program said that, "Most of the drops we've seen over the last decade have been in non-violent crimes." (Source: Canada's crime rate continues to drop, Globe and Mail, July 21, 2010) Serious assaults, as illustrated in the chart below, have gone up steadily since 1983, with slight decreases in the last couple of years.

Violent crime statistics - Canada

[Darren10]

I just spotted this via facebook. (I'll be done for now after this post).

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.

Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."

Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store

[blackstrap]

Switzerland has a population of about 8 million.If we extrapolate to the US population that would be about 2800 firearm deaths,still 1/3 of the US rate.

[Darren10]

Switzerland has a population of about 8 million.If we extrapolate to the US population that would be about 2800 firearm deaths,still 1/3 of the US rate.

What is the current population of Switzerland?

A 2007 estimate shows the population of Switzerland to be 7,554,661, with an overall density of 190 persons per square kilometer or 495 per square mile. About three-quarters of the total population are Swiss citizens. The remaining people are citizens of other countries.

Also:

Number of gun deaths goes down in Switzerland

While 291 fell victim to a bullet in 2007

That's about 0.00003851% death rate by guns.

PRB Reference Sheet for United States 2007 has the population at around 302 million.

Violence-Related Firearm Deaths Among Residents of Metropolitan Areas and Cities --- United States, 2006--2007

Violence-related firearm deaths remain an important public health concern in the United States. During 2006--2007, a total of 25,423 firearm homicides and 34,235 firearm suicides occurred among U.S. residents (1).

That has death by guns at around 0.0001973%

Som yeah about 1/3 less in Switzerland than in the US. So, what gives? This, to me, points to an exernal drive to kill by guns than simple gun ownership. And notice how very low both countries are in gun violence.

[Calm]

LOL!!! Why the Avengers movie had to be set in New York City

Hilarious

[Calm]

I know in a perfect world guns and hatred and violence won't exist but it would be nice to live in some society like that. I can't even concieve of a reaosn why someone needs a machine gun like weapon. if people want that stuff doesn't that send signals to others that maybe something is potentially amiss? Again I know the realities of life but people can't have everything they want and if you hurt other people with something it should get taken away

Depends on what they use it for. If it is just for fun, for collection purposes--an appreciation of a fine machine I can see that. If they claim it is for hunting purposes or self protection, that would have me concerned.

[Calm]

i can see your point and all but I don't recall any cars being driven into theatres either. I know full well speed demons kill on the roadways and some are lucky they don't die with innocent others. What do you mean by "private citizens"? don't we all live together in a society? What reason do people need to have automatic or semi-automatic weapons-I just can't get my head around why people need it.

There have been a number of times where people have used cars to intentionally kill people, including driving into crowds. Look at what someone did with planes as well.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JZy7EwlBAk

http://www.kboi2.com...-157064115.html

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/02/24/cops-3-hurt-after-woman-intentionally-drives-into-crowd-outside-new-cassel-hall/

[thesometimesaint]

In 2003, there were 30,136 firearm-related deaths in the United States; 16,907 (56%) suicides, 11,920 (40%) homicides (including 347 deaths due to legal intervention/war), and 962 (3%) undetermined/unintentional firearm deaths.

CDC/National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports 1999-2003

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars

• The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.
  

Kellermann AL and Waeckerle JF. Preventing Firearm Injuries. Ann Emerg Med July 1998; 32:77-79.

• The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
  

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997;46:101-105.

• The United States has the highest rate of youth homicides and suicides among the 26 wealthiest nations.
  

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Rates of homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death among children: 26 industrialized countries.

MMWR. 1997;46:101-105.

Krug EG, Dahlberg LL, Powell KE. Childhood homicide, suicide, and firearm deaths: an international comparison. World Health Stat Q. 1996;49:230-235

For the record I'm neither a pro-gun nut nor an anti-gun nut, but I am against allowing nuts behind the trigger.

[Calm]

While I believe guns should be allowed, I think there should be strict enforcement of strict laws dealing with storage and use of guns to prevent children and those not trained in their use from getting possession of them without oversight by someone who is trained not only in their use, but in teaching their use.

[Deborah]

KSL has a classified section where individuals put items up for sale. My son has bought many items there. And this is the Mormon Church facilitating unregulated guns? Some people are really desperate for a story.

[Anijen]

...the theater where the massacre in CO took place had a 'no guns allowed' policy (making it so even people with permits allowing them to carry guns concealed could not do so). Obviously, that rule (if it did exist) had no impact on the amount of gun violence occurring in the theater. The criminal did not care in the least that guns were prohibited.

Thanks for your very well thought out post. You are right there were signs at the theater that prohibited any firearms inside. With the posting of such a sign I wonder if the theater is taking on the job of protecting its customers. For example if someone had the right to carry a weapon inside the theater that person could have saved many lives.

Since the theater disallowed any carrying of firearms could that be a legitimate reason they could be found liable in the many law suites to come because they did not allow conceal carry? And does the signs that prohibit conceal carry into the building does it give some accountability of protection to the theater customers?

I have had one uncle and two friends killed by criminals with guns, all three places they were not allowed guns (Marshall Islands, and inside a dept store). It seems very clear to me gun control although its intentions are good would only take guns away from responsible people.

[Anijen]

These are the same guns;

They fire a simple 22 bullet, both are the very same hardware (Rugar 10/22), both are semi automatic (meaning they fire only one bullet per trigger pull). I own one like the one on the left. The one on the right is decked out to look more military but it is the same gun as the one on the left. I myself see no reason to pay money to make your gun look like an automatic weapon, but many do that. Like a poster said it is very difficult to acquire (legally) an automatic weapon. I have no reason to do so. I use my 22 for plinking, hunting, and vermin control.

edited to say; I think this may be one reason for a lot of the fear of guns, because many gun owners make their guns appear to be more than what they really are.

[bluebell]

I get what you're saying I just would like to see a society that hatred and violence is gone and by people's own choice and not by force. The issue as it is is people who don't abide by the laws that exist but I think and I don't know but shouldn't or don't all US States have a no big gun policy? In Canada I think we do but sadly it hasn't stopped criminals from shooting up places. In theory it would be nice not to have the same type of episodes occur over and over again and what do we learn from them?

Many people collect guns simply because they love shooting them (at targets, not people) and because they love guns. Owning or wanting a gun, even guns that are capable of high volume shooting, doesn't mean the person is motivated by hatred or violence. Often they just love guns the same way that other people love cars, for example. For many, collecting guns is like collecting stamps-they want all types, just for the love of the genre.

And i think we also have to realize that someone who goes into a building and tries to kill as many people they don't know as possible for no reason whatsoever is not mentally stable. That means they are going to be dangerous whether they have access to guns or not. I would imagine that if the CO shooter had not been able to get guns to commit his crime with, that he would have used a bomb (since he was clearly capable of making them).

If someone WANTS to hurt people, not having a gun is probably not going to stop them. There are thousands of ways to kill mass numbers of people under the sun. No guns does not automatically equal no violence.

[bluebell]

In 2003, there were 30,136 firearm-related deaths in the United States; 16,907 (56%) suicides, 11,920 (40%) homicides (including 347 deaths due to legal intervention/war), and 962 (3%) undetermined/unintentional firearm deaths.

CDC/National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports 1999-2003

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars

• The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.
  

Kellermann AL and Waeckerle JF. Preventing Firearm Injuries. Ann Emerg Med July 1998; 32:77-79.

• The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
  

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997;46:101-105.

• The United States has the highest rate of youth homicides and suicides among the 26 wealthiest nations.
  

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Rates of homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death among children: 26 industrialized countries.

MMWR. 1997;46:101-105.

Krug EG, Dahlberg LL, Powell KE. Childhood homicide, suicide, and firearm deaths: an international comparison. World Health Stat Q. 1996;49:230-235

For the record I'm neither a pro-gun nut nor an anti-gun nut, but I am against allowing nuts behind the trigger.

Before we can really extropolate anything from this information, we have to know how many of these gun related homicides were committed by people who could 1)legally own a gun and 2) would obey a no-gun law if such was in place. Laws don't necessarily determine criminal activity. I mean, murder is already illegal and that certain didn't stop any of these people from killing anyone, right?

I would guess that that the majority of these murders would still have been committed even if guns were illegal. I would guess that many of them were committed by people for whom owning a gun already was illegal.

[Anijen]

Before we can really extropolate anything from this information, we have to know how many of these gun related homicides were committed by people who could 1)legally own a gun and 2) would obey a no-gun law if such was in place. Laws don't necessarily determine criminal activity. I mean, murder is already illegal and that certain didn't stop any of these people from killing anyone, right?

I would guess that that the majority of these murders would still have been committed even if guns were illegal. I would guess that many of them were committed by people for whom owning a gun already was illegal.

You are exactly right. Statistics like these are one sided and quoted for one purpose only (gun control or legislating that all guns are illegal). They do not give all the statistics such as you have mentioned. I have a stat that gives a more detailed report but can not find it right now. It basically says the many gun murders in the US are in the largest part committed by gangs in which almost all of the gang members would not be allowed to purchase a gun.

Just thinking out loud and defending the 2nd amendment

Anijen.

[bluebell]

Thanks for your very well thought out post. You are right there were signs at the theater that prohibited any firearms inside. With the posting of such a sign I wonder if the theater is taking on the job of protecting its customers. For example if someone had the right to carry a weapon inside the theater that person could have saved many lives.

Since the theater disallowed any carrying of firearms could that be a legitimate reason they could be found liable in the many law suites to come because they did not allow conceal carry? And does the signs that prohibit conceal carry into the building does it give some accountability of protection to the theater customers?

I have had one uncle and two friends killed by criminals with guns, all three places they were not allowed guns (Marshall Islands, and inside a dept store). It seems very clear to me gun control although its intentions are good would only take guns away from responsible people.

I would guess that if there were people there that night who had legal concealed carry permits but who did not carry because of the theater's policy they will attempt to take legal action against the theater. In a sense, it would be fair to do so. The theater made it illegal for someone to protect themselves so that might imply their assumption of that duty.

I don't know where the law would fall in such a case, but i know people who conceal carry and they are very invested in gun policies. If they feel a policy puts them in unnecessary danger they will fight against it-i think it's a typical mindset for the type of people who want to carry concealed.

[Anijen]

I don't mean to be a post hog but I couldnt resist posting this image;

I wonder if we could have a caption contest. Mine might be "eleven reasons to vote for Mitt" (eleven rifles).

[ERayR]

It would, in theory.

But criminals never have any trouble finding guns, so in reality, no legal guns only means that no law abiding citizens are armed. Of course, law abiding citzens are rarely the ones committing crimes with guns, so there's the trouble. The criminals are still armed.

Laws will only impact those willing to abide by them and if you are willing to use a gun in a crime, the law has no power to stop you-it only has the power to punish you after you have used the gun in a crime.

If i understand correctly (and maybe i don't), the theater where the massacre in CO took place had a 'no guns allowed' policy (making it so even people with permits allowing them to carry guns concealed could not do so). Obviously, that rule (if it did exist) had no impact on the amount of gun violence occurring in the theater. The criminal did not care in the least that guns were prohibited.

Also since Columbine Colorado has had very restrictive gun laws. Go figure.