bu11fr0g Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 Luke 1:44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.I decided to take a challenge to read the New Testament and already ran into this jam:Did a fetus have enough cognition to have joy about a voice? I can perhaps see Elizabeth being happy and an adrenaline surge hitting the fetus causing it to kick more vigorously, but I had always heard this scripture as implying that the fetus John recognized the importance of Mary and Christ.What does this imply about ensoulment? and compare this with the classic Mormon ensoulment at birth, which has always been very problematic for me.Was this just an errant interpretation -- by me or by Elizabeth?
selek1 Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Luke 1:44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.I decided to take a challenge to read the New Testament and already ran into this jam:Did a fetus have enough cognition to have joy about a voice? There are a number of preliminary studies suggesting that there may be tangible and measurable benefits to playing certain types of music and even reading to a fetus still in the womb.I occasionally read to my daughter before she was born (her mother thought I was nuts- and mostly still does).There's certainly no logic reason to rule it out.I can perhaps see Elizabeth being happy and an adrenaline surge hitting the fetus causing it to kick more vigorously, but I had always heard this scripture as implying that the fetus John recognized the importance of Mary and Christ. Ironically, whether or not baby John would have had the necessary cognizance to recognize Mary's voice, he had no reason to recognize her.If I'm remembering my Scriptures correctly, Mary and Martha had not seen each other for some time- certainly since before they began their respective pregnancies.That being the case, John was "meeting" Mary for the first time- and could only have recognized her voice and responded by miraculous means. What does this imply about ensoulment? and compare this with the classic Mormon ensoulment at birth, which has always been very problematic for me. What "classic Mormon ensoulment at birth"?I don't believe that there is any definitive statement (prophetic or otherwise) about when the spirit joins the body. The Mormon folklore I've heard speculates that it occurs when the baby first starts moving within the womb.Was this just an errant interpretation -- by me or by Elizabeth? The error is yours. You're trying to nit-pick an event that happened primarily by miracle, and conflating folk lore with spiritual truth. Edited June 25, 2012 by selek1
DBMormon Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 Something happened, a kick, a movement... and they saw it as a sign,. They were nazarenes which were a very spiritual group
Duncan Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 When my Mom was pregnant with me she and my sister went to a KFC deal day thing and my Mom obviously bought some and I have been addicted ever since. So, I think there is a correlation between what goes on the outside can affect what goes on in the inside
rpn Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) And that may be the reason why the Church has not opined on personhood. You have both the accounts of John recognizing Jesus (I think not Mary) in the womb and Jesus talking to Nephi outside the womb the day before He was born. That suggests either Jesus is different in the womb and could come and go in the womb (but why would His mortal experience be different on this point), or that John's spirit having cognition that resulted in physical effect was unique (and what would be the point of that --- so we could have a bible story on the subject?)The deduction then is that spirits may differ in when they enter the body, and they may come and go in the body, but spirits remain without the veil (and with all capacity to feel and cognate and move until birth. Edited June 25, 2012 by rpn 1
bluebell Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 What does this imply about ensoulment? and compare this with the classic Mormon ensoulment at birth, which has always been very problematic for me.Was this just an errant interpretation -- by me or by Elizabeth?I have never heard that Mormon doctrine is that the soul enters at birth. Where is this taught? I've always heard that we just don't know when it enters. 1
CV75 Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 Luke 1:44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.I decided to take a challenge to read the New Testament and already ran into this jam:Did a fetus have enough cognition to have joy about a voice?I can perhaps see Elizabeth being happy and an adrenaline surge hitting the fetus causing it to kick more vigorously, but I had always heard this scripture as implying that the fetus John recognized the importance of Mary and Christ.What does this imply about ensoulment? and compare this with the classic Mormon ensoulment at birth, which has always been very problematic for me.Was this just an errant interpretation -- by me or by Elizabeth?Verse 41 makes first mention of the leap: “And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost…” Then, while under the influence of the Holy Ghost, Elizabeth reveals: “as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. (Verse 44)”We cannot really tell whether the leap preceded or caused the manifestation by the Holy Ghost, but it is interesting to consider this in consideration of John’s role as a herald or forerunner to Jesus.We can’t tell whether Elizabeth believed the baby in her womb was a bonded extension of her own soul and her joy caused the babe to leap, or she believed he was a separate soul that leaped on his own joy or by the joyous influence of the Holy Ghost. So we cannot tell which perception, belief or psycho-cultural premise was being acted upon by the Holy Ghost (or whether it was acted upon at all) or whether we can use this as confirmation that a fetus has a soul. But the power of the Holy Ghost was clearly with the mother.Elizabeth then says of Mary (Verse 45), “And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.” Thus we have the first recorded instance of a “leap of faith.”It would be interesting if anyone can shed some light on "ensoulment" as perceived or understood by the people of that time or of the time of the writing of Luke (who was a physician).
3DOP Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) It is appropriate that this question would arise today. June 25th is six months before Christmas, December 25th. That is why in the Church Calendar yesterday was the great Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, whose barren mother Elizabeth conceived miraculously six months before the Virgin Mother conceived even more miraculously.With the prompt, but prudent haste of holy love and joy supernatural, the mother of God, after receiving into her holy womb the Word made flesh, speeds her way over the hill countries that separated her from Elizabeth after the Angel Gabriel has informed blessed Mary that her cousin is also with child. And so we gain insight into the meaning of the Canticle of Canticles when we read of the soul so intimately drawn into mystical unity with God, that her spiritual ear is listening so acutely for His coming that as she senses His nearness she cries out with holy rapture:"The voice of my Beloved! Behold he cometh, leaping upon the mountains, skipping over the hills." ---Cant. 2:8The first gracious revelation of the God-Man is to the very friend of the Bridegroom, the herald of the Messiah, who recognize each other from their saintly mother's wombs.A beautiful hymn in honor of the the feast is attributed to a Benedictine monk of Monte Cassino named Paul the Deacon, in the 8th Century. The hymn is still sung at Vespers on this day. An English translation of one of the strophes, while seeming a little clumsy as poetry, still explains wonderfully how as infants in the wombs, John and Jesus initiate their cooperative energies by bringing light to these most privileged mothers. Speaking of John first:Yet lying in the secret of the maternal womb* Thou perceivest the King reposing in the bride-chamber:* Thus both parents, by the merits of their child* Come to know hidden mysteries.---Translation from The Liturgical Year, by Abbot Gueranger, O.S.B., Volume 12, p. 236, republished by St. Bonaventure Publications, 2000.They are the words cried loudly by holy Elizabeth, prompted by the lively movements of her wordless child, that together with the words of the Angel Gabriel have resounded on the hopeful lips of faithful souls crying out knowingly to her who whose soul never diminishes but magnifies the Lord, and who for all generations will be remembered as blessed:Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women...and...Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.---Luke 1:28 and 423DOP Edited June 25, 2012 by 3DOP 1
selek1 Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) When my Mom was pregnant with me she and my sister went to a KFC deal day thing and my Mom obviously bought some and I have been addicted ever since. Has she been indicted yet? There's a statute of limitations on these things, you know.Get thee hence to a Popeye's Fried Chicken and sample the true golden fried manna! Edited June 26, 2012 by selek1 1
Mark Beesley Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 I've been told that I should come to this thread because it is infinitely more interesting. I think I've been lied to.
Aliwe Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Luke 1:44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.I decided to take a challenge to read the New Testament and already ran into this jam:Did a fetus have enough cognition to have joy about a voice?Other women are New York Giants fans, they swear their fetus jumped for joy in Super Bowl 46.
Nemesis Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Other women are New York Giants fans, they swear their fetus jumped for joy in Super Bowl 46.Are you intentionally trolling. Your posts make no sense and I am no longer subjecting the board to your non-sense. Take a couple of days to see if you can actually engage with a thoughtful post that actually has something to do with the thread.Nemesis
bu11fr0g Posted June 26, 2012 Author Posted June 26, 2012 If a spirit only gets "locked in" at birth, there are a number of implications about what being a child of God is that could also be applied to preAdam conditions.
Damien the Leper Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 I have never heard that Mormon doctrine is that the soul enters at birth. Where is this taught?I've always heard that we just don't know when it enters.To my knowledge, it isn't. Also to my knowledge, there is no scriptural basis for such an assumption. This debate forks into several other debates. One of which atheists entertain is that of the philosophical theory of the soul. IOW, the existence of the soul.Some of the modern Reformed adherents believe the soul enters the womb when sperm and the egg join and the being is 'conceived'. Still, there is no theologically sound argument to sustain such a belief.
Duncan Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) Has she been indicted yet? There's a statute of limitations on these things, you know.Get the hence to a Popeye's Fried Chicken and sample the true golden fried manna!No! haha! We don't have a Popeye's Chicken here, what we do have is Chicken Delight! and it's delightful! I used to eat at Popeye's occasionally when I served my mission in the US of Americahttp://www.chickendelight.com/ Edited June 26, 2012 by Duncan
Cobalt-70 Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 I have never heard that Mormon doctrine is that the soul enters at birth. Where is this taught?It is from 3 Nephi 12-14, in which the spirit of Jesus spoke to Nephi, in the Americas, the day before Jesus' birth in Israel.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 I've read the scripture, but I've never seen it interpreted into a broadbased doctrine regarding when the soul of a baby enters the body. 2
Cobalt-70 Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 I've read the scripture, but I've never seen it interpreted into a broadbased doctrine regarding when the soul of a baby enters the body. How else would you explain it?
Calm Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 That Christ maybe could do things the rest of us couldn't.....taking a trip out of the womb the day before you are born doesn't seem that big of a deal for a guy who raised himself up from death.
bluebell Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 How else would you explain it?Like Cal said, I don't know that Christ doing something should automatically be used to imply that that's how it works for everyone else.
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