Perception Of Nephi Being Arrogant Or "Spoiled Child Syndrome"

[DBMormon]

When I joined the church at 17 years old I right away picked up on this. Whether it really is there or not is up for discussion but one understanding of reading 1st and 2nd Nephi is that of Nephi being very self centered. A very deep contrast to other areas of the Book of Mormon. For example in Alma 32 where Alma is very perceptive of various groups of the Zoramites and their readiness for the gospel and his concentration on the needs of these groups.

Below are some of the points that attribute to this and some discussion points.

1.) When Nephi and his brothers go back to Jerusalem in 1st Nephi Chapter 3:28-29

the scripture reads

"And it came to pass that Laman was angry with me, and also with my father; and also was Lemuel, for he hearkened unto the words of Laman. Wherefore Laman and Lemuel did speak many ahard words unto us, their younger brothers, and they did smite us even with a rod.

And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an aangel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a bruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will cdeliver Laban into your hands."

Nephi says his older brothers were hiting both him and Sam yet when he discusses the angel's reproof the angel only condems the older brothers for beating Nephi. He seems fucused on his treatment and not Sam's. Did the angel really only sympathize with Nephi's abuse? unlikely, more likely is that Nephi was very focused on himself and how the story revolves around him. I wonder how Sam felt reading this afterward?

2.) Nephi is constantly painting his brothers in the worst light. While he indicates he cares for them and hopes they repent he never gives us their arguments or their thought process. Instead he constantly paints them as the bad guys and himself as the victim of every thing they do. We know from real life that very few things are that black and white and yet that is the broad brush Nephi paints with.

3.) Nephi is always telling us that he does all that he is asked and his brothers are always "murmering" . Nephi gives us the "I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded" and that theme shows up more then just the scripture mastery.

4.) Nephi doesn't do all this stuff alone. The story indicates it is he who had to hunt for the food due to broken bows, It is he who was commanded to build a ship, He who had to convince his brothers to try again to get the plates. Yet we know from Sam's treatment that he was a thorn in the older Brother's side as well, yet we have very little from Sam in what he adds to the plot.

5.) Nephi, when he screws up, seems to downplay it.

The using their fathers treasure to bribe Laban was Nephi's idea, not the Lord's, and yet Nephi doesn't take a moment to reflect at all that HE didn't listen to the Lord. It could have been a great teaching moment to let the reader know that he tried it his way and that still wasn't good enough till he involved God.

6.) In 2nd Nephi ch 4 Nephi recounts the blessing his father gave to each of the children and in fact the whole household except he tells us nothing of what his father said to him in his blessing..... very odd. There are some experts here who tend to gather from the story that Nephi had no sons (why Jacob had to take over the record after Nephi's death) and that this obvious failure as seen through the culture of his time left him to leave it out in hopes his reader would move past it and not dwell on God withholding a male child from him. Did Lehi tell him in the blessing to be more humble? toi be nicer to his brothers? to repent? We shall never know but Nephi's leaving this out can't be an accident.

7.) The Psalm of Nephi - Right after not telling us what Lehi blessed him with we get the most Human interaction from Nephi himself. in the same Chapter 4 after the blessing NEphi tells us how wicked he is, how easily he sins, and how he needs the atonement of Christ. Coincidence? no way. Nephi has been humbled by whatever happened in his father's blessing (conjecture) and death that he has a moment where he is humble and aware of how damgaging his arrogance and self centeredness has been. How it likely was a divisive tool to his brethren and how much of the turmoil may have been prevented by his own reactions to all that has occured.

Just my thoughts..... talk amongst yourselves

A.) Does this change how we view Laman and Lemuel?

B.) Does this alter our view of the justified Murder of Laban?

C.) Does this lessen our perception of Nephi doing everything he is commanded>

D.) Do we see nephi's accomplishments ina different light?

E.) does this alter our understanding of the complexity of the Book of Mormon at all?

- in what ways?

Edited June 8, 2012 by reelmormon

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Never saw it that way before... some points to ponder. Thank you for the thoughts.

[Garden Girl]

I've never read it as Nephi being arrogant... he had two older brothers who were obviously not following a correct path or else one of them would have been "chosen" rather than Nephi... I'm sure Nephi wasn't perfect... but he was obedient enough to be chosen, while his brothers weren't. So what does that tell you about them.

GG

[Anijen]

I have never read it that way, if anything I would place the arrogance on Laman and Lemual.

[CV75]

Just my thoughts..... talk amongst yourselves

I beleive Hugh Nibley wrote quite a bit about the family's dynamics

I'm sure there is something for everyone in the Book or Mormon!

[ERayR]

When I joined the church at 17 years old I right away picked up on this. Whether it really is there or not is up for discussion but one understanding of reading 1st and 2nd Nephi is that of Nephi being very self centered. A very deep contrast to other areas of the Book of Mormon. For example in Alma 32 where Alma is very perceptive of various groups of the Zoramites and their readiness for the gospel and his concentration on the needs of these groups.

Below are some of the points that attribute to this and some discussion points.

1.) When Nephi and his brothers go back to Jerusalem in 1st Nephi Chapter 3:28-29

the scripture reads

"And it came to pass that Laman was angry with me, and also with my father; and also was Lemuel, for he hearkened unto the words of Laman. Wherefore Laman and Lemuel did speak many ahard words unto us, their younger brothers, and they did smite us even with a rod.

And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an aangel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a bruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will cdeliver Laban into your hands."

Nephi says his older brothers were hiting both him and Sam yet when he discusses the angel's reproof the angel only condems the older brothers for beating Nephi. He seems fucused on his treatment and not Sam's. Did the angel really only sympathize with Nephi's abuse? unlikely, more likely is that Nephi was very focused on himself and how the story revolves around him. I wonder how Sam felt reading this afterward?

2.) Nephi is constantly painting his brothers in the worst light. While he indicates he cares for them and hopes they repent he never gives us their arguments or their thought process. Instead he constantly paints them as the bad guys and himself as the victim of every thing they do. We know from real life that very few things are that black and white and yet that is the broad brush Nephi paints with.

3.) Nephi is always telling us that he does all that he is asked and his brothers are always "murmering" . Nephi gives us the "I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded" and that theme shows up more then just the scripture mastery.

4.) Nephi doesn't do all this stuff alone. The story indicates it is he who had to hunt for the food due to broken bows, It is he who was commanded to build a ship, He who had to convince his brothers to try again to get the plates. Yet we know from Sam's treatment that he was a thorn in the older Brother's side as well, yet we have very little from Sam in what he adds to the plot.

5.) Nephi, when he screws up, seems to downplay it.

The using their fathers treasure to bribe Laban was Nephi's idea, not the Lord's, and yet Nephi doesn't take a moment to reflect at all that HE didn't listen to the Lord. It could have been a great teaching moment to let the reader know that he tried it his way and that still wasn't good enough till he involved God.

6.) In 2nd Nephi ch 4 Nephi recounts the blessing his father gave to each of the children and in fact the whole household except he tells us nothing of what his father said to him in his blessing..... very odd. There are some experts here who tend to gather from the story that Nephi had no sons (why Jacob had to take over the record after Nephi's death) and that this obvious failure as seen through the culture of his time left him to leave it out in hopes his reader would move past it and not dwell on God withholding a male child from him. Did Lehi tell him in the blessing to be more humble? toi be nicer to his brothers? to repent? We shall never know but Nephi's leaving this out can't be an accident.

7.) The Psalm of Nephi - Right after not telling us what Lehi blessed him with we get the most Human interaction from Nephi himself. in the same Chapter 4 after the blessing NEphi tells us how wicked he is, how easily he sins, and how he needs the atonement of Christ. Coincidence? no way. Nephi has been humbled by whatever happened in his father's blessing (conjecture) and death that he has a moment where he is humble and aware of how damgaging his arrogance and self centeredness has been. How it likely was a divisive tool to his brethren and how much of the turmoil may have been prevented by his own reactions to all that has occured.

Just my thoughts..... talk amongst yourselves

A.) Does this change how we view Laman and Lemuel?

B.) Does this alter our view of the justified Murder of Laban?

C.) Does this lessen our perception of Nephi doing everything he is commanded>

D.) Do we see nephi's accomplishments ina different light?

E.) does this alter our understanding of the complexity of the Book of Mormon at all?

- in what ways?

More than likely this is a result of Mormons abridgement. Mormon was focused on Nephi's role and not on Sam's role.

[DBMormon]

I have never read it that way, if anything I would place the arrogance on Laman and Lemual.

But does this give us insight into why these two older brothers would be so hard on Nephi... similar to Joseph of egypt and his relationship with his 11 brothers.

[DBMormon]

I've never read it as Nephi being arrogant... he had two older brothers who were obviously not following a correct path or else one of them would have been "chosen" rather than Nephi... I'm sure Nephi wasn't perfect... but he was obedient enough to be chosen, while his brothers weren't. So what does that tell you about them.

these weren't evil brothers though. Hard hearted... maybe but not evil. And yet they seem to be painted that way at times. Yet who has control of the story? Who gets to be the only one who explains what is going on? Nephi has total editorial control.

The missing 116 pages would have been very valuable here. I wonder what dynamic Lehi might have painted on the relationships of his children and how he attributed the challenges in these stories.

[wenglund]

More than likely this is a result of Mormons abridgement. Mormon was focused on Nephi's role and not on Sam's role.

Correct. And, besides, as with most personal histories, the Book of Nephi was written in the first person and from the perspective of the author. So, it is to be expected that such histories would be oriented around the person doing the writing. In such cases it is a matter of perspective and not arrogance--that is, unless someone is being projectively hyper-critical of ancient prophets.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Log]

Mormon didn't abridge the small plates.

Nephi didn't write the plates until very long after the events, in the New World. It is, to my mind, problematic to describe a man who had been in the ministry of God for many years, as prophet even, as having the outlook of a spoiled child.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Log

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Laman and Lemuel qualify as evil in my book, not just heard hearted. Beat their brother with poles. Plotted to murder him in the desert. Threatened to bind him up and toss him into the ocean in Bountiful. Tied him up in the ship. Plotted to murder Nephi and his family in the promised land, forcing them to flee. Taught their children to hate Nephi and his family so much, they were at war constantly. They were well beyond hard hearted. They were wicked men. That is not to say they could not have still turned around. Nephi took no joy in knowing their fate and still labored to save them.

[bluebell]

these weren't evil brothers though. Hard hearted... maybe but not evil.

They attempted to kill Nephi more than once, and planned on killing their father. That seems more 'evil' than 'hard hearted' to me.

[Duncan]

Grant Hardy goes over this view in his recent OUP book on the Book of Mormon. He challenged my perception of Laman and Lemuel for sure. One thing that Hardy points out is it doesn't say how long Lehi was a prophet for and so if your dad says one he is a prophet and next week he announces that you're moving you may have some second thoughts about it

Edited June 8, 2012 by Duncan

[DBMormon]

Laman and Lemuel qualify as evil in my book, not just heard hearted. Beat their brother with poles. Plotted to murder him in the desert. Threatened to bind him up and toss him into the ocean in Bountiful. Tied him up in the ship. Plotted to murder Nephi and his family in the promised land, forcing them to flee. Taught their children to hate Nephi and his family so much, they were at war constantly. They were well beyond hard hearted. They were wicked men. That is not to say they could not have still turned around. Nephi took no joy in knowing their fate and still labored to save them.

They attempted to kill Nephi more than once, and planned on killing their father. That seems more 'evil' than 'hard hearted' to me.

According to Nephi's version!

Why does the family keep evil people around?

Why doesn't Nephi report on his blessing from his father? think about it, considering all Nephi likes to say about himself and he completely leaves out his blessing menwhile he states that his father blessed the whole household.... very peculiar

This doesn't negate his calling or acting in his office, just another lens to better understand the story and those in it

[CASteinman]

Nephi says his older brothers were hiting both him and Sam yet when he discusses the angel's reproof the angel only condems the older brothers for beating Nephi. He seems fucused on his treatment and not Sam's. Did the angel really only sympathize with Nephi's abuse? unlikely, more likely is that Nephi was very focused on himself and how the story revolves around him.

No, that is not the more likely reason. If you read the passage carefully and read the history in the Book of Mormon you may detect a difference between Sam and Nephi that would have been important to both the Angel and to Nephi's brothers.

Why on earth would you jump to a negative view based on obscure interpretations that ignore the rest of the scriptures so quickly when the answer is far more obvious?

2.) Nephi is constantly painting his brothers in the worst light. While he indicates he cares for them and hopes they repent he never gives us their arguments or their thought process. Instead he constantly paints them as the bad guys and himself as the victim of every thing they do. We know from real life that very few things are that black and white and yet that is the broad brush Nephi paints with.

OK... so because they are bad guys and Nephi describes this... that makes Nephi bad too? Really? Do you have any serious doubt that Laman and Lemuel were murderous and wicked?

3.) Nephi is always telling us that he does all that he is asked and his brothers are always "murmering" . Nephi gives us the "I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded" and that theme shows up more then just the scripture mastery.

Really? Nephi is faithful and his brothers aren't and this makes him a bad guy? Wow. This post is a fulfillment of prophecy about a time when good is called evil and evil is called good.

4.) Nephi doesn't do all this stuff alone. The story indicates it is he who had to hunt for the food due to broken bows, It is he who was commanded to build a ship, He who had to convince his brothers to try again to get the plates. Yet we know from Sam's treatment that he was a thorn in the older Brother's side as well, yet we have very little from Sam in what he adds to the plot.

Well, you are really gonna have to have a word or two with God and straighten him all out on who He calls for prophets and leaders and who He doesn't. Make sure to let Him know how wrong He was that He did not have Sam write a book for you.

5.) Nephi, when he screws up, seems to downplay it.

The using their fathers treasure to bribe Laban was Nephi's idea, not the Lord's, and yet Nephi doesn't take a moment to reflect at all that HE didn't listen to the Lord. It could have been a great teaching moment to let the reader know that he tried it his way and that still wasn't good enough till he involved God.

Except it wasn't a screw-up. You really have turned truth entirely on its head in this post. You could use some insight from the Holy Ghost.

6.) In 2nd Nephi ch 4 Nephi recounts the blessing his father gave to each of the children and in fact the whole household except he tells us nothing of what his father said to him in his blessing..... very odd.

Seriously? Nephi may not have had children but records the blessings on the heads of his brothers' children and that somehow makes Nephi self absorbed?

Where on earth would that pass for reasonable logic?

[Matthew J. Tandy]

According to Nephi's version!

Why does the family keep evil people around?

Why doesn't Nephi report on his blessing from his father? think about it, considering all Nephi likes to say about himself and he completely leaves out his blessing menwhile he states that his father blessed the whole household.... very peculiar

This doesn't negate his calling or acting in his office, just another lens to better understand the story and those in it

Also apparently according to Jacob, who never refuted any of it. Or Jabo's son. And there's the detail that the Lord is the one who told Nephi to get his family out because his brothers were going to murder them shortly. So that would be according to the Lord. There is also the matter of the ship and the Liahona. I think that pretty clearly shows it wasn't just Nephi being cocky in his retelling. Further, we know what Laman and Lemuel's story was, at least as told by their descendents. Nephi was trying to make himself King and he stole the family records and was to be hated. Which is exactly what Nephi recorded them as essentially saying when they were all around, so that adds veracity to Nephi's account.

I don't disagree the Nephi's personal views would have colored his recounting to some degree. What Nephi said was murmuring may have not always been bad. But that's a bit different than saying you (Nephi) were beaten ans tied up and threatened with murder, but that's just your (Nephi's) view.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Matthew J. Tandy

[inquiringmind]

Grant Hardy goes over this view in his recent OUP book on the Book of Mormon. He challenged my perception of Laman and Lemuel for sure. One thing that Hardy points out is it doesn't say how long Lehi was a prophet for and so if your dad says one he is a prophet and next week he announces that you're moving you may have some second thoughts about it

Isn't it pretty clear from the BOM that Laman and Lemuel are sop?

They saw angels, witnessed miracles, were forgiven after trying to kill their brother, warned not to try again, and after all this, ended up planning to kill him after the death of their father.

Isn't it pretty clear that they're lost?

And considering that Solomon saw God in his youth, was warned not to turn away from Him, and did in his old age, isn't it pretty clear that he's lost too?

[Duncan]

Isn't it pretty clear from the BOM that Laman and Lemuel are sop?

They saw angels, witnessed miracles, were forgiven after trying to kill their brother, warned not to try again, and after all this, ended up planning to kill him after the death of their father.

Isn't it pretty clear that they're lost?

And considering that Solomon saw God in his youth, was warned not to turn away from Him, and did in his old age, isn't it pretty clear that he's lost too?

what's SOP? standard operating procedure?

[blackstrap]

Son of Perdition ,I presume. Try to remember what it was like being 16 years old. Self absorption is expected. Joseph Smith recounts his youth as sinful because he was frivolous etc. We are not told much about the age differences between the brothers. I don't think Laman and Lemuel were over 30 or they would probably been married. We seem to be talking about brothers in their 20s being proded by an upstart teenager. A recipe for conflict if there ever was one.

[Hamilton Porter]

Isn't it pretty clear from the BOM that Laman and Lemuel are sop?

They saw angels, witnessed miracles, were forgiven after trying to kill their brother, warned not to try again, and after all this, ended up planning to kill him after the death of their father.

Isn't it pretty clear that they're lost?

And considering that Solomon saw God in his youth, was warned not to turn away from Him, and did in his old age, isn't it pretty clear that he's lost too?

Seeing angels don't mean jack. Mystical experiences are so out of the ordinary it's hard to make sense of them especially when they're long in the past.

[inquiringmind]

Son of Perdition ,I presume. Try to remember what it was like being 16 years old. Self absorption is expected. Joseph Smith recounts his youth as sinful because he was frivolous etc. We are not told much about the age differences between the brothers. I don't think Laman and Lemuel were over 30 or they would probably been married. We seem to be talking about brothers in their 20s being proded by an upstart teenager. A recipe for conflict if there ever was one.

You mean they were probably in their twenties when their family left Jerusalem, when they first saw an angel, and when they were first told by an angel that their brother was to be a ruler over them (and then tried to kill him)?

Then (iirrc) they planned to kill him and their father in the wilderness.

And they must have been getting in their thirties 8 years latter, when he wanted them to help him build a ship, and they again tried to kill him (and were again rebuked by an angel.)

Then there was another attempt to kill their brother at sea, wasn't there?

In the meantime they married Ishmael's daughters, had children, and then they got to the Americas, raised their families, and were warned by their father, on his death bed, not to turn against their brother, not to try to kill him again, and not to raise their children to hate him.

How old do you think they were then?

What did they do after that?

After their father died, didn't they again turn against their brother, plot to kill him, and teach their progeny to hate him and his progeny when he got away?

So wouldn't their sin against the light they had be unforgivable according to LDS doctrine?

Edited June 8, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Calm]

Remember that Nephi is telling the story from the lens not of youth, but of age looking both back and forward even if he is recounting a memory from his youth. And when he records the prophecies and counsel of his father to his older brothers he already knows what path they will choose and what amount of suffering and hardship they have caused not only for their parents, but for the whole community which they have placed in greater danger due to their decisions. Nephi has already had to deal with the foreknowledge that in the end it is his brothers that will 'win', not the Lord; that leaving Jerusalem, all the sacrifices their family makes still results in their descendants dwindling in unrighteousness and ignorance.

Even if he has forgiven his brothers, I suspect some bitterness bleeds through from time to time and it shows up in his writing. Laman and Lemuel may "win" in one way, but he is going to make it very clear that they did not 'beat' him no matter what happened then or in the future. He also is writing for his posterity and probably feels the need to "keep a stiff upper lip" to encourage those who seek righteousness among his descendants even though the end is not particularly rosy.

And what he doesn't say is very interesting, but we are left on our own to figure out why the gaps are there (such as his father's blessing mentioned above).

Grant Hardy's book on Understanding the Book of Mormon (IIRC, I think that is the title) is excellent in my opinion on dealing with Nephi's POV.

Edited June 8, 2012 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

When I joined the church at 17 years old I right away picked up on this. Whether it really is there or not is up for discussion but one understanding of reading 1st and 2nd Nephi is that of Nephi being very self centered.

Good grief!

[Hamilton Porter]

Nephi is preachy and annoying, but some of his writings are my favorite of all time.

[theplains]

2.) Nephi is constantly painting his brothers in the worst light. While he indicates he cares for them and hopes they repent he never gives us their arguments or their thought process. Instead he constantly paints them as the bad guys and himself as the victim of every thing they do. We know from real life that very few things are that black and white and yet that is the broad brush Nephi paints with.

This reminds me a little of Joseph Smith in History of the Church 1:25.

"So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in

reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true;

and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so

saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and

who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen?"

Joseph Smith, probably due to his lack of wisdom in this particular aspect, couldn't figure out that one reason they

were persecuting him was because they believed he was lying.

Regards,

Jim