Perception Of Nephi Being Arrogant Or "Spoiled Child Syndrome"

[The Nehor]

More than likely this is a result of Mormons abridgement. Mormon was focused on Nephi's role and not on Sam's role.

Mormon didn't abridge those plates.

[Duncan]

Son of Perdition ,I presume. Try to remember what it was like being 16 years old. Self absorption is expected. Joseph Smith recounts his youth as sinful because he was frivolous etc. We are not told much about the age differences between the brothers. I don't think Laman and Lemuel were over 30 or they would probably been married. We seem to be talking about brothers in their 20s being proded by an upstart teenager. A recipe for conflict if there ever was one.

aha! and true, very true!

[Calm]

So wouldn't their sin against the light they had be unforgivable according to LDS doctrine?

On the contrary, they may have had some personal experience with angels, but they didn't sound like they had too much faith in the Lord falling almost immediately back into their old whining ways (according to Nephi) as soon as the angel left. Any roots of faith they had were planted shallow and withered quickly in stressful times accordingly.

A son of perdition is someone like the Brother of Jared, who gained knowledge (saw God) because his faith was so powerful and then rejects all the glory he has been given, not someone like Laman or Lemuel who barely managed to carry on even when given visions and angelic kicks in the behind.

[inquiringmind]

On the contrary, they may have had some personal experience with angels, but they didn't sound like they had too much faith in the Lord falling almost immediately back into their old whining ways (according to Nephi) as soon as the angel left. Any roots of faith they had were planted shallow and withered quickly in stressful times accordingly.

A son of perdition is someone like the Brother of Jared, who gained knowledge (saw God) because his faith was so powerful and then rejects all the glory he has been given, not someone like Laman or Lemuel who barely managed to carry on even when given visions and angelic kicks in the behind.

But where does it actually say that?

[Calm]

couldn't figure out that one reason they

were persecuting him was because they believed he was lying.

Regards,

Jim

I don't understand where you are getting this. Just because JS says he knows it is true, doesn't mean that he believes the rest of the world knows it is true and are trying to get him to deny it anyway. The "why persecute me" sounds more like "I'm trying to do the right thing here, why is this all happening to me"?...the expectation that if one does the right thing, things should turn out alright, not makes things worse.

[DBMormon]

that is, unless someone is being projectively hyper-critical of ancient prophets.

ouch... that hurts. I am not questioning Nephi's call or righteousness. Self Centeredness is not always something someone chooses. some people simply do not have a good ability to step outside of that box. We all know folks who always are talking about or worried about how a situation affects them and not others. I see some of that in Nephi.

[volgadon]

2.) Nephi is constantly painting his brothers in the worst light. While he indicates he cares for them and hopes they repent he never gives us their arguments or their thought process. Instead he constantly paints them as the bad guys and himself as the victim of every thing they do. We know from real life that very few things are that black and white and yet that is the broad brush Nephi paints with.

I think there are cultural cues that modern, Western readers don't recognise right away.

[CASteinman]

A son of perdition is someone like the Brother of Jared, who gained knowledge (saw God) because his faith was so powerful and then rejects all the glory he has been given

I think you have him confused with someone else. But I have no idea who you mean.

[DBMormon]

Nephi is preachy and annoying, but some of his writings are my favorite of all time.

I agree. I love 2nd Nephi 31 and then how at the end he says that is in it's entirety the doctrine of Christ... then in chapter 32:6 he must have had a epiphany as he then comes back and says Christ will in deed add some thing to this Doctrine of Christ after he comes in the flesh (temple ordinances).

I am glad this thread is igniting some discussion. I knew when I wrote it there would be folks on both sides of this.

the proposed self centeredness of nephi doesn't affect the truth jsut another way to see the gospel.

Also anything you say about Laman and Lemuel is one sided.... through the eyes of Nephi. You folks point out Jacob doesn't correct it but Jacob was born in the wilderness and most of these events occur before Jacob's birth or when he was young. He would have been heavily influenced by the Nephites side of the story.

[Calm]

But where does it actually say that?

Say what exactly? The definition of a SOP? or the way they fall back into whining almost immediately upon seeing an angel, etc.? The last is in the story as Nephi tells it, the definition of a SOP is given by JS, IIRC, but also if one reads all the verses about SOPs in the scriptures, I think it is clear that first one has to be great in faith so that God has revealed the Son to one as happened with the Brother of Jared and then reject God completely, not simply be not valiant in whatever faith or knowledge one has.

See http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng&query=%22son+of+perdition%22 for the verses.

[volgadon]

I think you have him confused with someone else. But I have no idea who you mean.

WHat I understood Calmoriah to be saying is that a SOP would be someone like the Brother of Jared who then turns against what he knows and experienced. A hypothetical, of course, not an implication that the Brother of Jared is an SOP.

[DBMormon]

There no way Nephi's is unbiased! HE tells the story through his view. He sees himself as a prophet and therefore he is only doing God's will. If he sees it through that lens then he is forced to see his brothers actions and further yet their motives as contrary to god's will and therefore he paints them in the worst of light... he gets to get the last word in and all future generations will rely on his record for an appraisel of his brothers constant confrontation with him. He get to tell his side of the story and only his side is told... Not that the important facts are wrong, just they have Nephi's slant to them.

[DBMormon]

Still curious what you folks think about 2nd nephi chapter 4 and his not mentioning his blessing and seems to word the chapter ina way that indicates he is hoping to do so without you noticing?

Edited June 9, 2012 by reelmormon

[The Nehor]

But where does it actually say that?

In scriptures, it is said only vaguely. Prophets have since clarified.

[CASteinman]

I am not questioning Nephi's call or righteousness.

uhhhmmm.. yeah. You are. Maybe you didn't want it to appear to be that way, but it is what you are doing.

I don't really think that is exactly the problem though -- or not the right way to put it. To me, what you came up with was the most uncharitable possible reading of motives that you imposed upon him from your imagination. So to me, a more accurate description of your words would be aggressive evil speaking of the Lord's anointed.

Yet, I presume that was not really your intent. I believe your intent was to be "intellectually challenging". Well, you know what they say about "good" intentions...

[volgadon]

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=11&num=1&id=280

[Calm]

I think you have him confused with someone else. But I have no idea who you mean.

I meant to be a son of perdition one has to start from a place of great faith such as the Brother of Jared had (such that God revealed the Son to him) and then fall from that place, unlike the Brother of Jared.

[Calm]

WHat I understood Calmoriah to be saying is that a SOP would be someone like the Brother of Jared who then turns against what he knows and experienced. A hypothetical, of course, not an implication that the Brother of Jared is an SOP.

Yes, that is what I meant.

[The Nehor]

There no way Nephi's is unbiased! HE tells the story through his view. He sees himself as a prophet and therefore he is only doing God's will. If he sees it through that lens then he is forced to see his brothers actions and further yet their motives as contrary to god's will and therefore he paints them in the worst of light... he gets to get the last word in and all future generations will rely on his record for an appraisel of his brothers constant confrontation with him. He get to tell his side of the story and only his side is told... Not that the important facts are wrong, just they have Nephi's slant to them.

The modern need to read 'between the lines' often results in missing the plain meaning. I encourage humanizing the characters in the Book of Mormon but trying to

Laman and Lemuel were wicked. They plotted to murder their father and their brother. When given the option to go back to Jerusalem they demurred probably because by that time their primary goal seems to have been to get political power over the little colony.

Was Nephi obnoxious? Possibly. Even probably. Prophets are almost always obnoxious. Was he self-righteous? Probably some in his youth but I think he grew out of it. You can't preach against sin without being called self-righteous by the wicked.

I remember walking out of a meeting where a Bishop condemned a sin that was pervasive in the ward. He was direct and as kind as he could be while telling everyone it needed to stop. Many made snide comments about how that Bishop would be alone in heaven or even that he imagined himself to be better then everyone else. I don't doubt Laman and Lemuel genuinely thought he was a self-righteous git. I also don't doubt that he wasn't or not nearly as bad as they thought at least.

As to the blessing, the family went in order. It started with Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi in Chapter 1, not Chapter 4. Lehi gave Nephi the birthright unless Laman and Lemuel would repent. The idea that Nephi didn't have children is rebutted throughout 1 and 2 Nephi. Nephi laments what would happen to his 'seed' in the future. In 2 Nephi 4:11 Lehi makes it clear that Sam's children would be numbered with Nephi's children. This wouldn't be much of a blessing if Nephi didn't have any.

I also think you trying to show that Nephi was trying to hide something is a monumental stretch.

[inquiringmind]

On the contrary, they may have had some personal experience with angels, but they didn't sound like they had too much faith in the Lord falling almost immediately back into their old whining ways (according to Nephi) as soon as the angel left. Any roots of faith they had were planted shallow and withered quickly in stressful times accordingly.

A son of perdition is someone like the Brother of Jared, who gained knowledge (saw God) because his faith was so powerful and then rejects all the glory he has been given, not someone like Laman or Lemuel who barely managed to carry on even when given visions and angelic kicks in the behind.

But where does it actually say that?

And what about all the multitudes spoken of here?

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8-9, Joseph Smith Translation.)

It sounds like a lot of people are in view.

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Rev. 13:14-18, Joseph Smith Translation.)

Whatever this beast is, and whatever the mark is, it seems to be talking about a large number of people.

The third angel of Revelation 14 (who follows the first angel--the one proclaiming "the everlasting Gospel"--who I believe is usually taken to be a symbol of the book of Mormon) says:

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9-11, Joseph Smith Translation.)

If these people aren't written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever, wouldn't you say that they're sop?

Do you think all of this multitude will be one-time giants who fell from a place of great faith (such that God had actually shown His son to them)?

Edited June 9, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Calm]

D&C 76:43 "except those sons of ^bperdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him."

If these people aren't written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever, wouldn't you say that they're sop?

Do you think all of this multitude will be one-time giants who fell from a place of great faith (such that God had actually shown His son to them)?

No. See D&C 19 about everlasting punishment.

And no to the multitude being one time giants.

Edited June 9, 2012 by calmoriah

[inquiringmind]

No. See D&C 19 about everlasting punishment.

And no to the multitude being one time giants.

Thank you.

[Log]

A son of perdition is someone like the Brother of Jared, who gained knowledge (saw God) because his faith was so powerful and then rejects all the glory he has been given, not someone like Laman or Lemuel who barely managed to carry on even when given visions and angelic kicks in the behind.

According to Nephi, it is sufficient to receive the baptism of fire.

[Log]

Isn't it pretty clear from the BOM that Laman and Lemuel are sop?

Actually, it's pretty clear that they're not. In terms of the vision of the tree of life, SOPs are those who partake of the fruit and then fall away. Laman and Lemuel never partook of the fruit.

[Bernard Gui]

http://www.three-peaks.net/annette/Lemuel.htm

The Book of Lemuel

By Brian Thomas

Chapter 1

Dear Diary,

I, Lemuel, being born of nagging parents, therefore, I have been harassed much of my life; not only by my parents, but by my younger brother Nephi, and my older brother Laman, with whom I get along the best. There! Now maybe my parents will get off my back about keeping a record.

Lem

Chapter Two

Dear Dairy,

Well, Its' finally happened! My father is a lunatic!! He has decided that he feels that we should leave the big city and head out into the wilderness. He hasn't said where. He started talking about leaving after he came home from yelling at people to repent. He said the people threw rocks at him. No kidding! I think one of them must have beaned him on the noggin. When he came home, he went to his tent and laid on his bed for about 12 hours straight. I thought he was in a coma.

Lem

Chapter Three

Dear Diary,

Hi, I'm Lemuel, and I'm dumb.

Dear Diary,

I didn't write that last entry. Laman must have gotten hold of the plates. Sometimes he's a real jerk. I wish there was a way to erase engravings. Maybe a jeweler could fix it. Dad says we have to go back to town and get some brass plates from Uncle Laban. Sure, like Laban's going to say, "Here, have them. Maybe you want my coat, too? You want that I should die from pneumonia, then you'll be happy?" Laban hit me once when we were younger because I spit on him. I'm not going!

Lem

Chapter Four

Dear Diary,

I decided to go to the city after all. We just got back and the walk was murder. Laman was picked to talk to Laban. He went over and talked to him. Then, he got drunk and asked one of Laban's girlfriends out on a date. Laban got mad and beat Laman up pretty good. After that, we went to our old home and got our gold and tried to buy the plates from Laban. His gang chased us away and stole our stuff. Laman was furious! I thought the vein on his forehead would blow up! He and I got sticks and beat up Nephi and Sam until we got tired. Then an angel came and told us to quit hitting them. Boy, Nephi and Sam sure got lucky! Nephi went back to the city and found Laban laying in the street. He was so drunk the Nephi chopped off his head and got the plates. What a trip!

Lem

Chapter Five

Dear Diary, Now Dad wants us to go back to the city and get Ishmael and his family. He probably wants us to marry his daughters... he's got a million kids. I guess I don't mind so much about going back to the city this time; some of Ishs' daughters are pretty good looking even though they don't have much upstairs. Sounds like a pretty good match for me, eh? I'll write more when we get back. Just got back from the city. Ishmael's daughters are better looking than I remembered. But, there's one that's really ugly. She's hangin' on Laman like a bad suit. Nephi's been on our backs the whole time. He keeps telling me to repent. Sheesh! It's not like I'm CAIN or something!

Lem

Chapter Six

Dear Diary,

I've had it out here! I'm not a happy camper! I've had diarrhea for the last two months. I haven't been writing much lately because things have been really hard! Now Dad has this gold-colored ball that he sits and stares at for hours every day. He says it tells him what to do and where to go. If Dad's looking for that kind of information, I can give him a few ideas. Ahh, I'm going to bed!! Mom's pregnant, I think, either that or she's got a tumor. I think she's too old to have a baby.

Lem

Chapter Seven

Dear Diary,

Mom was pregnant! She had a boy, named him Jake. We all have families now and most of us have at least one kid. I have two; Frank and Jesse. They're little terrors, but I guess they'll grow out of it. I know I should write more, but I keep putting it off. I don't know the reason but my wife is getting really buff. I'm worried because she's almost gotten bigger than me. Laman's wife is huge! She's stronger than eight cows. But then, I told Laman he'd have an eight cow wife.

Lem

Chapter Eight

Dear Diary,

Oh Man! Could that be a deli out in the middle of the wilderness? I'm craving some bagels and lox. Maybe some pastrami on rye. Ahh, it's just a mirage. Nephi says Heavenly Father told him to build a boat. Nephi's never even seen a boat. Jerusalem is landlocked! I've never seen more than a glass of water at a time, let alone a whole ocean. And now Nephi thinks he's Noah all of a sudden. Why, he can't even shoot a bow. He broke his last week. We went a day without food because of it. Knowing Nephi, he probably called it a fast. Gotta go.

Lem

Chapter Nine

Dear Diary,

Laman gave me a tattoo. It really hurts. He rubbed salt in it before I could stop him. He said salt makes it feel better. It hurts like the ****ens. Why'd I let him do it? He can talk me into just about anything. I can't believe it's been eight years since we left home, and here we are on a beach with a ship that probably won't even float. Mom had another baby, called him Joe. I can already tell he's going to be trouble.

Lem

Chapter Ten

Dear Diary,

I'm really seasick! We've been having a party here on the ship that Nephi made. The boat worked pretty good. We've been floating around for about two weeks now. We tied up Nephi yesterday because he's such a stiff. He got really mad at Laman and I because we got drunk. It's stormy a lot. If it gets much worse we might sink. Everybody says that Heavenly Father is punishing us with this storm and that we should untie Nephi. Yeah, right! doubt it. But maybe we'll untie him after Family Home Evening.

Lem

Chapter Eleven

Dear Diary,

We've finally landed. I feel like we've been on this tub forever! Good thing Nephi brought all those seeds. There's nothing to eat and it's my turn to go hunting. What if I run into some big animal I've never seen before. Maybe I can con Jake or Joe into going hunting for me. Can you believe it? Nephi is already talking about building a temple. And we haven't even been here for a day! Can't he give this religion thing a rest? Laman has already got ideas about moving out on his own. I think I'll go with him.

Lem

Chapter Twelve

Dear Diary,

Well, Nephi finally did it. He finally got Laman so mad at him that Laman couldn't see straight. They started talking again about who was going to be the leader. Laman thinks he should be the leader, because he's the oldest. But, Nephi thinks he should be the leader because some angel said so. Oh well, it'll be the last fight between them for a while. Nephi and a bunch of the family left a few nights ago to live somewhere else. And they took everything with them. The brass plates, Laban's sword, the gold-colored ball, everything!! Laman's pretty ticked off. I'm glad I stayed with him. Nephi won't know the first thing about living in the wilderness on his own. But since Nephi left, we've all developed a red rash on our skin. We can't seem to get rid of it.