Can The Book Of Mormon & The Pearl Of Great Price Help To Restore Priesthood To Women?

[Saints Alive]

I have often bemoaned that myself!! Staffing leadership would be much easier with as many good sisters as we have- as we all know they tend to be much more spiritual and much kinder than most men, not to mention better with people.

I absolutely HATE every time I hear this sexiest, bigoted remark. How the heck can you claim to generalize an entire sex and claim that they are more anything. Flip the statement around and say that men are better at anything worthwhile than a woman and I promise you will get dirty looks but do it to a man and it's ok.

[mfbukowski]

I absolutely HATE every time I hear this sexiest, bigoted remark. How the heck can you claim to generalize an entire sex and claim that they are more anything. Flip the statement around and say that men are better at anything worthwhile than a woman and I promise you will get dirty looks but do it to a man and it's ok.

Huh?

Yes, it is not politically correct to flip it around, but I did in my post. Did you read the whole thing? Are you a woman? I won't accept that I am "sexist" if that characterization comes from a man.

If I get that from women I would take a hard look at it. My wife and the LDS women I know, as well as my three grown daughters are quite comfortable with the gender roles in the church. I could well be wrong- but I don't think I am.

[Tepui]

Yes!

In previous posts, I have speculated on the identity of the Holy Spirit. I think it very likely that our current conception of the Holy Spirit as being male is incorrect. Furthermore, I believe that viewing the Holy Spirit as female -- as, in fact, Lady Wisdom Herself -- provides one of the strongest bits of evidence in support of the divine origin of the Book of Mormon available. In the Book of Mormon, the Father, the Holy Spirit of Lady Wisdom, and the Son are seen as One God, unified in intention yet separate in body. Far from the traditional Christian lens through which the BoM is too-often interpreted in, it is actually a preservation of the ancient Wisdom tradition. The oft-repeated claim that Joseph Smith's so-called "Nauvoo theology" represents some sort of philosophical break with the Book of Mormon is faulty; it is the Nauvoo theology which finally caught up with the Book of Mormon.

To summarize this view very briefly:

The Tree of Life is represented in many ancient cultures as being related to the Goddess. In the Old Testament, the Tree is associated with Asherah the Queen of Heaven, and Shaddai (the title often translated as "Almighty" in the King James Version) may be a Goddess epithet also related to Asherah as well. In Proverbs, Lady Wisdom is also associated with the Tree of Life, just as the Spirit of Wisdom is in the New Testament, most spectacularly in the vision recorded in John's Revelation about the Tree and the Queen of Heaven. Additionally, the Spirit is associated with both the Dove (an extremely common Goddess-symbol) and with Baptism by immersion and Rebirth, which is obviously a feminine office.

While I am not, by any means, even an amateur linguist, I strongly suspect that the translation of the King James suffers from preconceived ideas of the Trinity -- a conception which, unfortunately, has conditioned our reading and comprehension of the text. While parakletos and spiritus are grammatically masculine and pneuma is a neuter noun, ruach, the Hebrew 'Spirit', is feminine. While of course grammatical feminine is not in itself conclusive evidence for a physically-feminine referent, neither does it preclude it. From this perspective, the very few references in John to a masculine Spirit might simply be an error of incorrect assumptions. Moreover, conceptually, the symbolism of the New Testament is considerably clarified if the feminine view of the Spirit is adopted.

As Margaret Barker has shown quite convincingly, the Deuteronomic reforms of Josiah were disastrous for the older Temple theology. This has a great deal of import for our reading of the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. Many of the criticisms of the Book of Mormon have in the past derided it for, among other things, a pre-Christ Christology. With the shifting paradigm offered by Barker (and even, in some ways, Hugh Nibley, in Message of the Joseph Smith Papyric, Abraham in Egypt, and One Eternal Round) the reconstructed Temple-centered religion of the pre-Josian religion is shown to have far more in common with Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price than with the Old Testament as it is traditionally understood.

Specifically, Lehi journeyed away from Jerusalem because the Vision conveyed by Lady Wisdom (the Tree of Life) was being taken from the Temple, transforming it into a great and spacious building bereft of the Holy Spirit. "And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance." -- 2 Nephi 28:4

Jeremiah, who is often read as an anti-Temple, anti-Queen of Heaven polemicist, actually acknowledges the switch -- if we read more carefully, he is condemning neither the Temple nor the Tree of Life, but rather the fact that they have been used to cover up avaricious practices, making them ritual forms without meaning. When the people deride him for Prophesying against them, he acknowledges that they have performed the rituals correctly, noting that the women were baking cakes to honor the Queen of Heaven as they should have. That was not the problem -- the problem was that they were doing so insincerely, as an empty ritual, using it like magical spells and blaming their troubles on the fact that they had been prevented from performing them. Indeed, Jeremiah compared the attempt on his own life with the destruction of the Tree.

The Book of Mormon has long been known for its stunning revelations relating to the Tree of Life. Just as remarkable is the feminine personification of the tree found in the Book of Jacob:

In a patriarchal polemic against the Mothertree which Jacob wishes his family to be grafted into, Genesis and the post-apostasy Hebrew Bible distorts the eating of the fruit:

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life." -- 3:17

The Pearl of Great Price restores the correct context, in which taking the fruit of Wisdom is a desirable action.

Additionally, in the Book of Mormon, the Tree is everywhere associated with the Holy Spirit of Wisdom -- Lady Wisdom from Proverbs, who is known as a Tree of Life and therefore possibly Asherah and Shaddai.

The Book of Mormon was dictated to scribes who recorded it in the best language that they had available to them (in their weakness, after the manner of their language) As such, there were countless errors in the manuscripts which have been corrected over the years. However, the corrections themselves were still based on the weaknesses of the language. Mormons have long been criticized for refusing to hold to an inerrant view of the text; yet far from a drawback, this is actually one of the most vital points of the Restoration.

One very important area where this can be highlighted is the use of titles. If an office-holder's title is named for an attribute (as is often the case in the ancient world) yet the corrector does not realize this, then it simply will not be capitalized, leading to a subtle misreading.

For instance, if Emma Smith or Oliver Cowdery or any of the scribes did not recognize the many parallels and quotes from Psalms and Proverbs in our Restoration scriptures, she or he would not have made the connection between Lady Wisdom and the lower-case "wisdom" often mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Through mere punctuation, the word becomes an attribute, rather than a person with a title named for that attribute. Yet if we look at the surrounding context in which the word "wisdom" appears, we are often justified in thinking it might be referring to Lady Wisdom Herself.

1 Nephi 10:22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

("For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round." -- 1 Nephi 10:19)

In the Book of Moses, the Spirit reveals mysteries of the Earth to Moses; the Spirit cries out to Enoch from the bowels of the Earth which is Her home when Her children descend to violence. This is clearly the ubiquitous motif of the Earth-Mother Goddess.

If the "fertility goddess" found in so many religions seems unforgivably "pagan" or "heathen", remember that the word "pagan" is not even found in the Bible, and Nephi says that "God remembers the heathen." "Heathen", meaning merely "not Christian or Jewish", probably pertains to one inhabiting uncultivated land -- not a condemnation of their religion as such, even if we ignore the Genesis story in which all the families -- and therefore religions -- in the world sprang from a common root.

In common parlance, "fertility goddess" is of course all-too-often bandied about with a sneer, as if the speaker is above such "primitive" concerns -- and yet, fertility is the root of life, the great gift which God granted Abram and Sarai. With the embodied human nature of deity, we are all, in effect, fertility Gods and Goddesses in embryo.

The word "create" just means "to make, bring forth, produce, beget." It's related to crescere, which is to "arise, come forth, spring up, grow, thrive, swell, increase in numbers or strength," from the Proto-Indo-European base ker-, meaning "to grow", as in the name of Ceres, the goddess of agriculture, or creare, "to bring forth, create, produce;" or the Greek kouros, "boy," or kore, "girl". We "create" our own children by following natural laws, initiating a process in which we cooperate in a complex symbiosis with other material to form new tabernacles for spirits, and yet the Uncreated Intelligence which we bring to light from darkness is eternally Free, an uncaused cause being initiated into the Temple of their body.

And as the Book of Mormon itself testifies, it is only when the testimony of two nations is allowed to run together that the truth of Godliness is made manifest. This revised view of deity, in which both male and female humans are capable of divinity, opens up a remarkable vista of comparative religious studies, in which we are not constrained to view the old "primitive myths" with patronizing Victorian disdain, itself conditioned by a post-Apostasy view of a disembodied Greek-philosophy view of God as Ontologically Unique First Cause rather than Individual Free Agent. (The human hand reaching out of the cloud in the gloriously enigmatic Book of Ether is a particular favorite of mine. Joseph Smith said that our happiness was only possible in a tabernacle; his view of an endless deified family is breathtaking for the sheer humanistic love it expresses.)

Clearly, God's visits in which He can speak to men face-to-face are rare. With innumerable garden-worlds to tend, he cannot spend overmuch time in our particular vineyard. But He has given us what we need to know to live well: to willingly take part in the Atonement, the Reconciliation of all Uncreated Intelligences. This record of the Atonement is found in scripture:

As usual, the Holy Spirit provides inspiration for language, writing, and fertility to "male and female" alike, with Priesthood being bound up with genealogy and the Book of Life -- all of which immediately calls to mind the Neolithic cultures in which Goddesses were worshipped just as strongly as the Gods. "Adam" is an archetypal name given to the fecund ancestors; the Holy Spirit "called their name Adam".

60 "For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified. Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to [W]isdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment. And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me. And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water. And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man. And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost."

This is a beautiful example of "primitive" religious ritual, in which the fertile Goddess gives birth to humanity.

It's even continued in the New Testament, in which Christ acts as a Restorationist, bringing back the Temple theology which Josiah had expunged and offering a "renewing" of the Holy Spirit of Wisdom. He is baptized with the sign of the Dove; it is women who know of his resurrection first; Lady Wisdom is paired in verses with the Father (Matthew 11:19) Christ brings back Light (Luke 1:79), the Tree of Life, the Lampstand to guide the way to peace, which is in His At-one-ment, the Reconciliation of all Uncreated Intelligences into one adopted family. The Apostles are given power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon them in the first chapter of Acts; this power is often related to language, speaking in tongues. Corinthians equates the Holy Spirit with the Wisdom of God in order to compare it with the Wisdom of the world. When we are "inspired", we are given eloquence by hearing the words of the Breath of Life which was breathed into Adam and all his children, the Comforter, the Mother who promises immortality by bearing the Light of Christ to us, guiding the generations of the family tree of this world towards the Savior's Atonement.

So where does Priesthood fit into all this?

The Book of Abraham

Nibley has shown at length in "All The Court's A Stage" the confusion occurring when the Egyptians tried to claim Patriarchal authority through a Matriarchal line. Thus the usual gender wars ensue, in which we are asked to play the Devil's Dilemma of choosing between Gog or Magog as if either was preferable to the other.

The point is that it should never have gotten to that point to begin with.

In this book, Abraham becomes a High Priest, a title which had been conferred upon him descending from the Fathers from before the foundation of the world. This should not, if we are fair, preclude High Priestesses; in fact, he desired to be a Father himself, and therefore needed a wife as holy as he - "Sarai" means "Princess".

His fathers had "turned away from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the gods of the heathen [which were the mute idols they had turned from commemorating the gods to being the gods themselves], utterly refused to hearken to [his] voice." (1:5)

Specifically, they "turned their hearts to the sacrifice of the heathen in offering up their children unto these dumb idols." (1:7)

Pharaoh's priest "had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who were the daughters of Onihah"; these "virgins were offered up because of their virtue; they would not bow down to worship gods of wood or of stone, therefore they were killed." (1:11) It was not their virginity which made them holy, but their faith in God as they chose to refuse to bow down to the established Priesthood of their land.

The land of Egypt was "first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus." "When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land." (1:23-24)

Note that the race is not a product of the curse; their branch of the family tree has rather not been blessed by Noah regarding the Priesthood. (To "curse" is not a supernatural magic power - in Ecclesiastical terms, it is to ban, censure, or pronounce anathema. But we still have some who claim that it really was their neighbor, the old witch, who cast a spell on the cows so they wouldn't give birth.)

The pertinent fact to note is that this appears from the text to be a policy which is nowhere said to be based on a Revelation from God.

Similarly, the patriarchal government was "after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal." (1:25) This was not divinely ordained, it was a policy of men. As Marija Gimbutas, Riane Eisler, and Elinor Gadon, among others, have shown, the patriarchal waves of invasion disrupted earlier, more egalitarian societies (though to be sure, they were hardly Utopias either!). It hardly matters that it is justified by an appeal to rhetoric emphasizing a claimed holiness - a similar sacralization of racially-motivated prejudice was seen, for instance, in the American South during the fight over slavery.

Yet, "Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of [W]isdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood." [Emphasis added]

Here Priesthood is explicitly decoupled from the organizational social-strategy of the order of Patriarchy. Priesthood and Patriarchy are quite explicitly not interchangeable; it is said that while Pharaoh righteously imitates the Patriarchal order, as yet he does not have the Priesthood. It was the "fathers" who "instituted [this order] in the days of Adam" and caused it to come "down by lineage" (D&C 107:41); "the order of this priesthood was confirmed to be handed down from father to son." (D&C 107:40)

Yet the Celestial Order we aspire to was, before the Fall, one of a marriage between equals. It wasn't until man sinned that woman was subjugated.

Note that it is never said "the fathers" had it by Revelation; it was merely something like a "Policy" had after the Fall, when the Celestial law in which Men and Women were Gods was not present. Many such policies have been changed in the past (such as Priesthood restrictions on blacks). As Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett Discourse, it is only when we come unto the Lord willingly that he starts to meet us; "when we are ready to come to him, he is ready to come to us." Those who say that the Church must wait until after death for women to be Priestesses are merely pushing that day farther away, when we should be grasping for it now.

Pharaoh was blessed with the blessings of the Earth and Wisdom (the Egyptian Ma'at), yet it was a practice by Noah (again, not necessarily inspired) which cursed him from the Priesthood. (As the D&C so ruefully acknowledges, we know well that good men are not assured of infallibility - we see the example of David, and emphasize that if the works of Justice are destroyed, Gods cease to be worth worshipping as such) As Moses 8:22 says, "God saw that the wickedness of men had become great in the earth; and every man was lifted up in the imagination of the thoughts of his heart, being only evil continually. [Again, one is put in mind of the Indo-European invasions which placed men higher than women]

By not extending our Priesthood to women, are men acting unfairly, without kindness, meekness, patience and long-suffering? Do the Heavens withdraw themselves and denounce the legitimacy of our Priesthood when we exercise unrighteous dominion and withhold it from an entire group of people, justifying our actions not with revelation but rather the philosophies of men mingled with scripture?

Yet, God also offered in Moses 8:24 that if he "Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest [the full priesthood, ushering in a full at-one-ment?]; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not."

It is the concept of Priesthood, "Elderhood", which is important, not the gender. The Creation was made known to the Fathers by the Holy Spirit of Wisdom (1:31); [after "the Lord ordained Noah after his own order (Moses 8:19)] yet by sad experience, we have learned that as soon as men get a little authority they exercise unrighteous dominion.

3:18 states that "If there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal."

All intelligences, "male and female", "Jew and gentile" are alike unto God who is "more intelligent than they all." (3:19) Since we have all existed forever, we are all equal. Thus, there is no basis for restricting the Priesthood based on gender.

The Gods are our parents, who adopted us before the foundation of the world, whose Son volunteered to bring knowledge of the At-one-ment after we have come down to experience mortal trials in order to become more like them.

4:1 "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters."

This vital scripture restores the idea that God the Father and God the Son are not only two separate beings, they were joined in their vast project of Creation by a Divine Council, which included the prominent Spirit who hovered and brooded over the waters, Wisdom who danced before the foundation of the world, who is possibly the Asherah, "She who treads the waters". The staunch trinitarianism of mainstream Christianity which is found nowhere in the Bible is done away with - everyone can get in on the act, if we live up to our divine potential. (See the Sermon in the Grove for the Plurality of the Gods.)

4:26 "And the Gods took counsel [we might say held Council, a sort of General Conference] among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness; and we will give them dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they him."

They are both to have dominion of the earth; the man is not without the woman. But it is not the dominion emphasized by those various waves of apostasy in the Jewish and Christian traditions, which followed after the lusts of their hearts and sacrificed "every man woman and child", justifying their actions in later redactions to blame God for their sins. No, the "dominion" in the Garden stories from around the world was that of a Gardener, a man and woman who replenished the earth and bore children to take part in their work.

In our Articles of Faith, we state that "we believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. [...] We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Joseph Smith was endowed with knowledge in a Sacred Grove. Like Christ, he instituted a "renewing" of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, asking for the Wisdom to set him on the path which would lead him to Restore the knowledge of the hieros gamos, the Sacred Marriage, in the Temple of God, wherein men and women would be sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise in order to be fruitful and take part in the Creation.

With this in mind, we might fruitfully reread the Joseph Smith History, though with a little variation from the way it reads in our version:

1:10 "In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it? While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack [W]isdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth him not; and [she] shall be given him."

"Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed [W]isdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know."

1:73 "No sooner had a I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation."

"Oliver Cowdery exclaimed: "Nor has this earth power to give the joy, to bestow the peace, or comprehend the [W]isdom which was contained in each sentence as they were delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit!" (JSH, footnote)

1:26: "So far as the sectarian world was concerned ... it was not my duty to join with any of them." [The most fundamental sects out in the world are not based on superficial political or religious ideology, but rather on the artificial split we impose between men and women, despite God's command that we be one with all, men and women. As the New Testament says, there are no divisions between males and females when all are united under Christ's teachings.]

"At last, the work could begin; in 1:26, Joseph Smith had finally been assured: "I had found the testimony of James to be true - that a man who lacked [W]isdom might ask of God, and obtain, and not be upbraided."

I would describe D&C 121 as another "olive leaf […] plucked from the Tree of Paradise, the Lord’s message of peace to us”, just like section 88, because it so emphatically states: "God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory; a time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest. [...] According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was."

Some pertinent scripture:

Matthew 15:4 "For God did command, saying, Honour thy father and mother."

Sirach 4:23 "And refrain not to speak, when there is occasion to do good, and hide not thy Wisdom in Her beauty. For by speech Wisdom shall be known."

When we give to all men and women liberally and deny none, we can finally be at peace with each other in the full blossoming of the At-one-ment: "And the Dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off." -- Genesis 8:11

I read your entry in its entirety. I don't see where you established that women ever held a priesthood office - which is necessary for your argument that it should be "restored" to them.

You used the example of the Tree of Life as representing Asherah or a woman - thus the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of the Lord as being female. This knowledge, you claim, came from Nephi vision of the Tree of Life (a la Dr. Peterson).

Yet the Book of Mormon is quite clear. Nephi in asking about the interpretation of the Tree of Life clearly stated the Holy Ghost was male:

1 Nephi 11:11

And I said unto

him

: To know the

a

interpretation

thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for

I beheld that he was in the

b

form

of a man

; yet nevertheless,

I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord

; and he spake unto me

as a man speaketh with another

.

You stopped reading!

So your entire premise that the Holy Ghost is female - to use as your argument that women had, should or should be restored to holding the priesthood - is obviously a completeerror!

The use of the female, in regards to our Savior's birth, is a reference to his mortality, that of blood and water, born of woman. It's how we enter into mortality. And of course, he was endowed with power over death due to his Being the Son of the Father. Baptism immersed in water represents this birth or of the physical resurrection. The baptism of fire or of the spirit, the cleansing of the Spirit sullied by mortality, to enable one to enter into the presence of Heavenly Father

And the dove that descended was female? Doves are both male and female. Noah was commanded to take of each.

This idea of using as some authority for your position, the "Mother Tree" by Zenos as quoted by Jacob, is also used by Nephi to describe the Gentiles in the Land of Promise, fighting against "their Mother Gentiles." This is nothing more than a reference to their (Israelites and Gentiles) origins.

Why this subject is such a concern for some, is beyond me. The purpose of the priesthood is to preside over families, thus the name: 'Heavenly Father.' It's not for self-glory, bragging rights, aggrandizement, to add to your curriculum vitae - you know all this.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

"When we read the account of the appearance of 'the Spirit of the Lord' to Nephi (1 Ne. 11), we are left to our own interpretive powers to determine whether the messenger is the Spirit Christ or the Holy Ghost. Presumptively it is the Spirit Christ ministering to Nephi much as he did to the Brother of Jared.” -- Bruce R. McConkie, “Mormon Doctrine” pp. 752

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Maidservant:

Thanks for the substantive reply! I think I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree with some of your arguments.

"So it is not about what women can't do, but about what men can do and have the privilege of doing."

But there are women who deeply desire to give blessings to others who, at the present time, can't. It's not a matter of Priesthood ordinances being used for "self-glory, bragging rights, [and] aggrandizement" as some like Tepui try unsuccessfully to claim; it's a matter of wanting to be included. Of taking part, and not being systematically excluded. If both genders were given the Priesthood, then it would become something that they both do and have the privilege of doing!

"If women become required to have priesthood in the church, then their salvation will hinge on that too [...] As things stand now, women are free from this requirement, and I see the purpose and the blessing on that."

This is similar to the justification used to deny the Priesthood to some men before 1978, and I strongly disagree that being free of the responsibility is a blessing.

"The godhead--Father, Son and Holy Ghost--is an Aaronic Priesthood structure. It may not seem like it is, but it is. [...] Thus, the Holy Ghost is not female."

So we've been told. But this is the paradigm I'm questioning. Maybe it might help to look at it another way:

Take the biblical use of 'Elder'. From Greek presbyteros, it's a comparative of presbys, "old," possibly originally meaning "one who leads the cattle," from pres, "before" + root of bous, "cow." So an Elder is someone old enough to take responsibility for shepherding. An office of trust. But what does shepherding have to do with gender?

3 Nephi 11:25 says "Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."

The Holy Ghost is part of the authority which we invoke. Jesus Christ was not the origin of the Priesthood -- he was a part of it. He was called to it. The Priesthood itself is "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life," as the JST of Hebrews 7:3 states. So if Christ gives authority to others, and His authority comes from the Father and the Holy Spirit, and their authority comes from their Intelligence which they share which we recognized by common consent in the Divine Council, then if the Holy Spirit is female, we have to conclude that Priesthood is not based on gender.

As D&C 20:28 (among many other places) states, "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end." And we are supposed to join them in judging righteously as One, even as Christ states in the Revelation: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if anyone hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to them, and I will eat with them, and they with me. To they that overcome will I grant to sit with me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in His throne. They who have ears to hear, let them hear what the Spirit says unto the churches."

"One" -- in what way? The Trinity as a metaphysical oneness is a concept imported into the scriptures. In John 17, Christ prays that His followers "all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

He shares the glory with all the world so that they can take part in the At-one-ment.

CV75:

Symbols have multivalent meanings. There can be multiple purposes expressed through them. If we are offered "rebirth" through a female of the spirit-world, then of course a feminine Tree of Life will represent immortality and eternal life and the Love of God. Since the Spirit is the vehicle through which the Light of Christ enters us, the Menorah is an excellent symbol, a golden tree bearing the only light in the darkness of the Tabernacle, an eternally-burning bush -- see Alma's mission in chapter 31:

While observing those worshipping on the Rameumpton (which, significantly, only holds a single person on it) he says:

"Behold, O Lord, their souls are precious, and many of them are our brethren; therefore, give unto us, O Lord, power and [W]isdom that we may bring these, our brethren, again unto thee. Now it came to pass that when Alma had said these words, that he clapped his hands upon all them who were with him. And behold, as he clapped his hands upon them, they were filled with the Holy Spirit."

Note well: Wisdom was requested, and they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

32:12: "I say unto you [who worshipped on the Rameumpton], it is well that ye are cast out of your synagogues, that ye may be humble, and that ye may learn [W]isdom; for it is necessary that ye should learn [W]isdom; for it is because that ye are cast out, that ye are despised of your brethren because of your exceeding poverty, that ye are brought to a lowliness of heart; for ye are necessarily brought to be humble."

This leads to his beautiful discourse on the Tree which brings Wisdom's Fruit to us:

21 "And now as I said concerning faith - faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true. [...] And now, he imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men but women also. Now this is not all; little children do have words given unto them many times, which confound the wise and the learned. [contrasting the Divine Wisdom with the "strange woman" of Proverbs who is the Wisdom of the world]

28 "Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves - It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me."

rameumpton:

I specifically stated that I find Barker's paradigm satisfying in "many" ways. Not all. Of course other denominations which don't believe in physically-separate Gods will collapse different manifestations of deity into a single metaphysical God. But the evidence Barker has collected (which, I should point out, I agree with because I came to similar conclusions independently) can be very fruitfully adapted to an LDS framework. You don't have to agree with every conclusion from a scholar to find their work supremely valuable.

If Wisdom was the Queen, and Kings and Queens are sanctified by the Priesthood, and Jesus is Her Son who is authorized by being one-in-heart with the Father and the Holy Spirit, then I think it's safe to say that She has some authority.

Juliann:

I don't know if the "without descent" verse has been used to argue against a race-based view of the Priesthood, but if it hasn't, then it should have been.

mfbukowski:

I know plenty of women who feel excluded by not being able to take part in the Priesthood. Whether the number has passed the threshold of a "huge movement" is immaterial, in my view, since morality doesn't depend on popularity. As I said earlier, I agree that there are, of course, biological differences between men and women. But what does that have to do with the Priesthood, which is "without mother or father"? It's apples and oranges, y'know?

The point is: if we who hold the Priesthood truly have authority, then we have the authority necessary to make a policy change which extends our authority to others.

All:

The Dove was a pretty standard symbol of the Goddess. Of course there are male doves, but that's beside the point. However, Tepui makes the excellent point that Noah was commanded to take one of each gender, thereby including both.

Edited March 2, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[JDave]

Huh?

Yes, it is not politically correct to flip it around, but I did in my post. Did you read the whole thing? Are you a woman? I won't accept that I am "sexist" if that characterization comes from a man.

If I get that from women I would take a hard look at it. My wife and the LDS women I know, as well as my three grown daughters are quite comfortable with the gender roles in the church. I could well be wrong- but I don't think I am.

I don't agree that women are more spiritual than men. And has it ever been shown that women are better at working with people than men? I'm not sure if either is based on simple anecdotal evidence or anything else.

I agree that women are in general kinder and more compassionate, and that is probably due somewhat to maternal instinct. And men are certainly stronger. I agree with your general sentiment above about gender differences.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

The Enduring Symbolism of Doves by Dorothy D. Resig.

[KevinG]

It matters not if it is nature or society- but in modern culture the priesthood gives LDS men a nurturing role that they might not otherwise take upon themselves for their families.

If women are given the priesthood I would read it in part as a failure of men to exercise theirs honorably.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

"If women are given the priesthood I would read it in part as a failure of men to exercise theirs honorably."

For heaven's sake, why? Couldn't extending the Priesthood be read as a success in exercising ours honorably?

Edited March 2, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[mfbukowski]

As I said earlier, I agree that there are, of course, biological differences between men and women. But what does that have to do with the Priesthood, which is "without mother or father"? It's apples and oranges, y'know?

The point is: if we who hold the Priesthood truly have authority, then we have the authority necessary to make a policy change which extends our authority to others.

I think we need to be suspicious of metaphysical statements which understand the Priesthood as being some kind of metaphysical thing which exists in some sense independent of its use. Some of what you said earlier I think may imply that- I don't know if that was intended or not

My understanding is that the Priesthood is God's power and authority delegated to us - both men and women- delegated exactly as God wants it delegated, or else "Amen to the authority" of that person.

Authority by definition as I understand the concept is that it only exists by operation of law. If I am not a police officer and I decide to take that authority on myself- I will go to jail. Amen to my authority. I cannot do that, precisely because to HAVE authority, it must be given by one who has it, and do it according to the limitations of that person's authority, which is limited by law- either man's or God's.

Authority does not have "father or mother" because it is legal delegation and the law does not have "father or mother". It's not based on who you ARE but who GIVES you the authority. So yes, theoretically there is no reason why women could not be given this authority.

In fact, as I have said before they ARE given this authority as shared with their husbands or even delegated before marriage as needed in the temple, as ordinance workers where they pronounce the most sacred blessings given to man. And remember the "Priestess" reference? If you understand the priesthood you understand that we hold the priesthood ONLY as long as we use it according to our obedience to the Lord- and so do women.

This does not limit their ability to actually bless others- as you have shown in your quoted article about healings. What is limited is their authority to preside, but guess what- our authority as priesthood holders to preside is also limited, and cannot exceed the delgated authority we have been given.

When there is a "higher authority" on the stand at a sacrament meeting for example- no matter what level that authority is, he "presides" whether or not he speaks or makes any decisions or really does anything at all. "Presiding" is actually an honorific title that doesn't amount to a hill of beans in terms of anything useful except in extreme situations.

All delegated authority is limited- and there is not such thing as "authority" which is NOT limited. The very concept of "authority" implies that there are bounds which could "exceed authority".

I guess I am having trouble seeing the practical limitations of what authority women do NOT have. They can bless people- and there are documented cases of miraculous healings by women. They can preside in their spheres of influence- like the Relief Society or in other callings, they are set apart as presidents of organizations as needed- as men are. Bishops preside over a given area- their ward boundaries- and every priesthood office is similarly limited in the areas in which they preside.

So "without mother or father" to me means that law and authority do not exist independently as people do - we have (theoretically) unlimited agency to defy law or not defy law. Were that not true, we could not sin and break the law.

But under the law- which exists, unlike people, without "father or mother", there are always limitations on authority; there are always and only legal delegations of authority.

[mfbukowski]

The Enduring Symbolism of Doves by Dorothy D. Resig.

But on the other hand, you point out correctly that 1- after the reforms of Josiah the Jews of the period were "apostate" and 2- what a symbol means to one culture has little to do with what it means to another culture.

Because some ancient cultures saw the symbol as feminine, is that evidence that it should be in the Restored Gospel?

By that logic, the inverted pentagram is Satanic and has no place on our temples. That is part of your case here that I do not understand. Clearly you have shown, imo, that the tradition is a strong one and in that way you have made your case.

But I am still not seeing why that we "should" change because of traditions which were arguably apostate.

It would be like arguing that because there a similarities between the temple and Masonic ceremonies, Masonry is the "true gospel"

I guess I am just not seeing the overall argument. Clearly you have produced a volume of evidence for your point of view- but not, in my opinion, why we should adopt that point of view.

[KevinG]

"If women are given the priesthood I would read it in part as a failure of men to exercise theirs honorably."

For heaven's sake, why? Couldn't extending the Priesthood be read as a success in exercising ours honorably?

If men exercise their priesthood honorably there will be no pressing need for the responsibility to be extended to others.

[selek1]

Not to be uncharitable, but having reviewed all of the evidence, this still strikes me as a solution in search of a problem.

It's clear you are a sincere and enthusiastic advocate of giving women the Priesthood- but you have fundamentally failed to demonstrate why Heavenly Father might be so.

You have failed to demonstrate why the Priesthood needs to be extended to women (other than a modernist/post-feminist conviction that men and women must be equal and equivalent in all things).

From the Latter-day Saint worldview, we know that the priesthood was restored to man in 1829.

We know that for the last 183 years- and in every recorded instance prior to that- Heavenly Father has determined that the Priesthood be a male function.

The Church has been clear and unambiguous in this concept since its founding.

In fact, in the last (roughly) two centuries, there has been only one major change in how and when the Priesthood is bestowed (in 1978). The historical record clearly shows that said change was long awaited and clearly expected.

And from the point of an objective observer- the change was a minor one, at best.

That record and expectation does not exist for bestowing the Priesthood on women.

There is not a single authoritative statement in Church doctrine or history that anticipates the changes for which you are advocating- and that is problematic.

For all of the evidence you have presented, you haven't offered anything clear, unambiguous, or authoritative. Your premise is built entirely on what-if's, supposition, and desire.

Based on that lack of a clear doctrinal or scriptural mandate from Church leadership, it seems inescapable that you are allowing your agenda to drive the evidence rather than the other way around.

The day may come when the Priesthood is extended to women- but there is no clear, doctrinal, or authoritative reason to anticipate such a change.

More tellingly, any such change will come from the Lord and his annointed- not from agitation from without.

[Calm]

I absolutely HATE every time I hear this sexiest, bigoted remark. How the heck can you claim to generalize an entire sex and claim that they are more anything. Flip the statement around and say that men are better at anything worthwhile than a woman and I promise you will get dirty looks but do it to a man and it's ok.

He said "most men", not "all men".

I disagree on the spiritual or kinder even with that qualification though. Rather I think women are culturally taught and possibly genetically inclined to express themselves in ways that are defined as "spiritual" and "kinder" and are also encouraged to participate in social contexts that promote such behaviours but since one cannot look at the intent of those actions or be aware of internal behaviour that men and women have that is "spiritual" or "kind" I don't think one can make comparisons of who is more spiritual or kinder, just comparison on who participates in social spiritual contexts more often as well as nurturing contexts more often.

[mfbukowski]

He said "most men", not "all men".

I disagree on the spiritual or kinder even with that qualification though. Rather I think women are culturally taught and possibly genetically inclined to express themselves in ways that are defined as "spiritual" and "kinder" and are also encouraged to participate in social contexts that promote such behaviours but since one cannot look at the intent of those actions or be aware of internal behaviour that men and women have that is "spiritual" or "kind" I don't think one can make comparisons of who is more spiritual or kinder, just comparison on who participates in social spiritual contexts more often as well as nurturing contexts more often.

I'll take the "possibly genetically inclined" as at least a highly qualified possibility of agreement.

I appreciate you responding- I think you are the only woman to do so. I agree of course that such behaviors would be extremely difficult to define or quantify to either prove or disprove since the "nature vs nurture" aspect of this is so complex.

I also am willing to concede that you are in a far better position than I am to comment on the truth or falsity of what I said than I am, since I have never been a woman.

[Calm]

I'll take the "possibly genetically inclined" as at least a highly qualified possibility of agreement.

As long as you realize the agreement is about external social behaviour that is labeled as spiritual (and may not be internally spiritually motivated, such as attending church more often may be motivated by looking for public approval or just enjoying the social climate, not the spiritual climate of church gatherings) and not internal spiritual behaviours (which I would see as trying to create a state of mind that promotes the spiritual, seeking out the Spirit, communicating with God, etc).

If so, we are good.

Edited March 2, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

BTW, I have not contributed to the thread before because I have come to a decision that this is not a constructive way for women to discuss their view of their relationship to Priesthood. And this one wants for the conversation to actually do something, if only to find a way to speak with confidence for those women in the Church who feel uncomfortable in speaking because of fear of being misunderstood, criticized or even looked down upon.

It seems when women start speaking of their desire for the Priesthood that often there is a certain set of responses from some men that shut down any possibility of the conversation going anywhere....such as attempts to diminish the personal benefits of the priesthood to make it appear as unappealing and therefore any woman who wants it must want it for the wrong reasons or comments from men and women that trivialize how other women feel about the issue. Men also seem to split into three groups---first the most vocal usually......men who view women expressing anything outside the experience outside of the status quo as 'rabble rousers'; second we get a second group of men who appear to be well educated, experienced and thoughtful and one expects them to speak but they have chosen not to do so perhaps to let women have the voice as is their right when it's their concern; and last we have men who are trying to seriously engage not only in superficial ways, but in deep, substantive ways....understanding may not come easy here, but may be the most effective when it comes. We are now trying to set up the structure of the conversation on the topic so we can avoid the pitfalls and spend our time instead in good fellowship looking for a solution.

At this point I think a good, but not perfect, analogy for how many women view the Priesthood is the Gift of the Holy Ghost and how a believer, who did not possess this Gift yet, would see himself as lacking in something that could help him communicate to God, to express his faith more effectively, to help him seek after greater knowledge and greater righteousness. We are taught that the Priesthood gives those who hold it a different relationship with God than those who do not hold it and that there are righteous desirable gifts that come to priesthood holders when they are ordained. And since our Article of Faith teaches us to seek after all good things, surely seeking after the Priesthood qualifies.

This seeking of the Priesthood is a separate issue from seeking the control of the Priesthood or rather the control of the offices where decisionmaking occurs. I have heard very few women desiring those trappings of the Priesthood for themselves, the few that do see women being in the priesthood hiaerchy as the goal are looking more to change the church rather than the former who are looking for ways within the church that can contribute to and nurture their spiritual growth...

I should have stopped this before it started as I took the 'fun drug' tonight and it's showing its muscles, got some major moves there too.

In other words I am now hallucinating in 3/4 D, in pure technicolour. The words tend to breathe in and out, expand and contracts and lovely sneak from one colour tone to another all while deciding should they stay flat on the page, sink into it, turn the page into a kite and go flying or just head off down town for a night of line dancingl Makes if very hard to keep track of what I've written. Best stop before I get myself certified and since I can hardly read them at all since the letters all look like those little apple people, better than zombie and pusmonsters shape.

My letters are assuming a life of their own as seen below

Time for a wiser woman to go to bed, will I be so wise as to speak no more when I wake up?

The question is if it makes sense at all......too hard for me to tell, too far gone.

Edited March 2, 2012 by calmoriah

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Too tired to respond at length to this conversation tonight. But here're a few good words: The Deseret Connection.

[Jeff K.]

Why do people always try to take Heavenly Father out of the conversation in regards to power and authority? There isn't some arcane Kabala somewhere outside of God's authority which the scribes will find and claim "a hah" this is where the authority is. I am willing to patiently wait as the Lord leads us, and continue to celebrate what the Atonement has done for me and my family.

[CV75]

Symbols have multivalent meanings. There can be multiple purposes expressed through them. If we are offered "rebirth" through a female of the spirit-world, then of course a feminine Tree of Life will represent immortality and eternal life and the Love of God. Since the Spirit is the vehicle through which the Light of Christ enters us, the Menorah is an excellent symbol, a golden tree bearing the only light in the darkness of the Tabernacle, an eternally-burning bush -- see Alma's mission in chapter 31:

But if you are talking about what the Book or Mormon offers, the symbols and discourses and their meaning (even in the examples you use) all pertain to Christ, who is male. As I stated before, this takes nothing away from the eternal significance of being female, I just don’t think the Book of Mormon offers a feminine counterpart to Christ in its symbolism. Mary is the closest we have regarding the expression of God’s love and condescension through a female vehicle.

Jesus is not saying He is female, or that the “gathering keys” are female, managed by females, or arise from female deity when He says, “how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings (3 Ne. 10:4-6).” And wisdom is certainly a benefit of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and a gift of the Spirit, but also comes through other vehicles; I don’t see how it can be said the Book of Mormon assigns it a uniquely feminine origin or role.

Where trees have both male and female reproductive organs, it makes sense that a tree can represent eternal life (exaltation only comes to couples and families; gods would not be God without being a united Heavenly Couple) or knowledge of good and evil (the greatest good is exaltation in opposition to spiritual death, with the ability to distinguish the two made possible only through illumination by the Light of Christ), but the Book of Mormon uses the symbolism of the tree to represent the personal Christ and His fruits (eternal life and knowledge, and the love and condescension required to bring them about).

(Not to quibble, and perhaps another topic altogether, but the Spirit (of Christ) is the source of the Light of Christ, not the vehicle through which it enters us.)

Edited March 2, 2012 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

.... I don’t see how it can be said the Book of Mormon assigns it a uniquely feminine origin or role.

Where trees have both male and female reproductive organs, it makes sense that a tree can represent eternal life (exaltation only comes to couples and families; gods would not be God without being a united Heavenly Couple) or knowledge of good and evil (the greatest good is exaltation in opposition to spiritual death, with the ability to distinguish the two made possible only through illumination by the Light of Christ), but the Book of Mormon uses the symbolism of the tree to represent the personal Christ and His fruits (eternal life and knowledge, and the love and condescension required to bring them about).

Frankly I have always seen the tree of life as just that- the history of life- the great family tree of all living things- as the unity of male and female progressing in the great unfolding of the universe and its multifarious species, limbs and branches stretching forth from that first organism all the way to us, and into the future as we progress from being gods in embryo to full development, carrying forward the great unfolding, the great plan of salvation filling the universe.

That complementary unity of opposites is at the core of the unfolding, love being the great binding force which brings those opposites together.

With no opposites, there can be no unity.

But that's just me.

[JDave]

As long as you realize the agreement is about external social behaviour that is labeled as spiritual (and may not be internally spiritually motivated, such as attending church more often may be motivated by looking for public approval or just enjoying the social climate, not the spiritual climate of church gatherings) and not internal spiritual behaviours (which I would see as trying to create a state of mind that promotes the spiritual, seeking out the Spirit, communicating with God, etc).

If so, we are good.

Well said.

[Jeff K.]

The church offers inexpensive localized missions now, they cover a variety of needs, not simply sharing the gospel.. Something to consider.

[JAHS]

I remember reading in Ender's Game about how the main character's mother, who used to be a Mormon, once placed her hands on her son's head and gave him a blessing, and I think I remember reading that she blessed him by faith or something like that, so not by the power of the priesthood. I haven't read it in awhile, so I don't know for sure. Anyway, I know it's a fictional book, but the author is LDS, so is there any truth to this? Can women give blessings? I've never seen it happen myself.

Here's a few quotes related to the topic of women giving blessings and priesthood

According to President Joseph Fielding Smith:

"The Lord has given us directions in matters of this kind; we are to call in the elders, and they are to anoint with oil on the head and bless by the laying on of hands. The Church teaches that a woman may lay on hands upon the head of a sick child and ask the Lord to bless it, in the case when those holding the priesthood cannot be present.

A man might under such conditions invite his wife to lay on hands with him in blessing their sick child. This would be merely to exercise her faith and not be, cause of any inherent right to lay on hands. A woman would have no authority to anoint or seal a blessing, and where elders can be called in, that would be the proper way to have an administration performed. (Doctrines of Salvation)

And President Joseph Fielding Smith, quoting from his father, said:

"Does a wife hold the priesthood with her husband, and may she lay hands on the sick with him, with authority? A wife does not hold the priesthood with her husband, but she enjoys the benefits thereof with him; and if she is requested to lay hands on the sick with him, she may do so with perfect propriety."

When this is done the wife is adding her faith to the administration of her husband. The wife would lay on hands just as would a member of the Aaronic Priesthood, or a faithful brother without the Priesthood, she in this manner giving support by faith to the ordinance performed by her husband. (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-56], 3:177.)

[rongo]

I have often bemoaned that myself!! Staffing leadership would be much easier with as many good sisters as we have- as we all know they tend to be much more spiritual and much kinder than most men, not to mention better with people.

As a thought exercise, imagine how the Church or life in the Church would be different if women served as bishops. I think this would be very problematic, and my wife and I have had many discussions about this (she absolutely agrees with me, and the basis for our discussion is what she has observed in my 4+ years and counting of being a bishop).

One inside joke we have, as we have discussed women hypothetically being bishops, is "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." We both agree that women-bishoping would be much more "letter," while men-bishoping is much more "life."

There are probably many who take the gravest exception to the above, but I'd be interested in people's thoughts.