Bill “Papa” Lee Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 So this is what it has come too, mocking a man for defending, family, friends and himself. Rejoicing over a man’s death, saying he got what he deserved…such is the state of “Christians Apologetics”, on many sites.. I asked this of some who rejoice; these two questions…What scripture do you guys use to condemn self defense? (and) Who among you would not use any means you could to protect others of your family.Martyr’s don’t report to be killed (as did Joseph), they run, hide, or have someone lower them in a basket down the city walls (Paul)…etc. When thrown into the Lions’ den, they run for their lives…sadly not many places to run. If they could kill the lion, If they could. Other than Christ, a Martyr is a believer out of options.
Rivers Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I think one's status of a martyr is determined by his/her followers. Osama bin Laden is probably considered a martyr now. I think people get too hung up on the gun. It was 200 men with guns vs. four people cornered in a tiny little room with one six shooter that only discharged three balls. It bugs me when I here people call it a gun fight. One thing I do wonder about is this: How would Joseph have reacted if he were the only one in the room? Would he still have used the the gun?
LeSellers Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) So this is what it has come too, mocking a man for defending, family, friends and himself. Rejoicing over a man’s death, saying he got what he deserved…such is the state of “Christians Apologetics”, on many sites.. ...Martyr’s don’t report to be killed (as did Joseph), they run, hide, or have someone lower them in a basket down the city walls (Paul)…etc. When thrown into the Lions’ den, they run for their lives…sadly not many places to run. If they could kill the lion, If they could. I repost this bacause I believe it fits very well. Self-defense isn't the most important thing in Joseph's life probably.Joseph didn't use the pepperbox pistol for "self defense"—he used it to defend others* from being killed and his brother's body from being mutilated. Hyrum was dead. It was only then that he fired three of the six rounds from the toy gun Brother Wheelock had smuggled in. * Yes, "self defense" also includes defending others. But in this context, it's critical to make the distinction I do.He jumped from the window (or tried to) to draw away the fire of the Carthage Yellows disguised as a mob. These brave men, servants of the Governor of Illinois, ran, tails between their legs, at the mere notion that "the 'Mormons' [were] coming!" Had he not fired, it is absolutely certain that the mob would have broken into the upper room of the jail and killed all four of its occupants (whereas John Taylor and Willard Richards survived: the former having nearly died, but the latter not even wounded). Had he not leapt from that window, the same fate would probably have come to pass. Had someone (unknown but to God) not yelled out the dire threat, they would still have been slaughtered. No. Joseph's use of that joke of a pistol (along with the other events noted) saved two lives, and, since Joseph had told all that he would not return from Carthage that time, he knew that three (or even six) rounds would do nothing for him. It was for the others he fired and jumped. And I agree with "Rivers": to hear others call the martyrdom a "gun fight" is laughable beyond belief. Why don't we call it a "club fight"? After all, Willard Richards used the "Rascal Beater" to knock away the fiery muzzles of the Carthage Yellows' guns when they were jammed through the door way. Lehi Edited June 20, 2011 by LeSellers
Questing Beast Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) @Pa Pa: If I was Joseph Smith in jail, pointing my pistol at the door and cocking back the hammer and pulling the trigger, I'd be swearing violently at each misfire. (that'd be three misfires, iirc)I'm sure he leaped for the window doing exactly what you said, trying to escape like any normal TRAPPED human being would do. He had no idea that the Mob was thronging even more thickly below the window, but in the last instant of his life he made that discovery.... Edited June 20, 2011 by Questing Beast 1
Duncan Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I would have done what Joseph Smith did, except I would yell, "take that Yankee Scumbags!" 1
frankenstein Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I would have done what Joseph Smith did, except I would yell, "take that Yankee Scumbags!"as Southerner , I have to chuckle. Thanks for making me laugh this morning.I agree that terms are controlled by one who wants to control message. Take the term "confederate" the terms carries negative connotations in the US, yet, the term confederate was mostly like used against the American Revolutionaries by the British, not general but in asking "who are your confederates". Does having a pistol change anything for me. No. I didn't learn about the pistol till I was 20, I learned from a Instituted Director who said during class "Yes, Joseph Smith had a pistol, and Yes he said 'have mercy on a widows son'" Do some that have been labeled martyr's willing accept their death? I think so, I recall Talmadge in "Jesus The Christ" referring to persons who said that some were all too willing to become martyr's. Would people feel better had Joseph Smith yelled "Leeeroooooooooy Jeeeenkiiiiins" as he jumped out the window? Why does fighting back disqualify martyrdom?Lehi, thank you for your assessment, I agree. 1
LeSellers Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Shoot the hostage.Are you alluding to Blazing Saddles?There was no hostage. Mel Brooks wasn't writing Captain Smith's script.Lehi Edited June 20, 2011 by LeSellers
bookofmormontruth Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I was under the impression he injured 3 cowards whose injuries help convict them later on?This is another classic example of a double standard from our critics. There is a free pass given to Peter in the Bible for defending the Lord even to slashing an ear off, but when Joseph Smith defends his fellow brethren he is condemned.And if ultimately condemned for defending his brethren, I desire to be where he ends up. "I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to h***, or go to any other place. And if we go to h***, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it." Joseph Smith
cinepro Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Are you alludibng to Blazing Saddles?There was no hostage. Mel Brooks wasn't writng Captain Smith's script.LehiNot Blazing Saddles... Edited June 20, 2011 by cinepro
bookofmormontruth Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Shoot the leader.Great idea if satan could be shot.
thesometimesaint Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 bookofmormontruth:Only if it is a silver bullet, or was that a werewolf? Actual I had the mortal one in mind.
Pahoran Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 @Pa Pa: If I was Joseph Smith in jail, pointing my pistol at the door and cocking back the hammer and pulling the trigger, I'd be swearing violently at each misfire. (that'd be three misfires, iirc)I'm sure he leaped for the window doing exactly what you said, trying to escape like any normal TRAPPED human being would do. He had no idea that the Mob was thronging even more thickly below the window, but in the last instant of his life he made that discovery....As a matter of fact, John Taylor had already gone for the window, and been shot for his trouble. That might just have told Joseph something.John Taylor thought Joseph went for the window to draw the mob after him and save his friends. But hey -- he knew Joseph personally and was present with him in the upper room; how could he possibly be expected to know better than you?Regards,Pahoran
Chris Smith Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 The problem with the idea of Joseph Smith as a martyr isn't so much that he did anything wrong, as that it doesn't fit the standard format of a Christian martyrdom narrative. It's not uncommon for people to try to escape death in Christian martyrology, but usually the actual moment of death is characterized by an acceptance of the inevitable and surrender to the will of God. There comes a moment in the narrative where the prospect of escape is given up, and the person becomes serenely resigned to die for the Gospel. Of course, whether such stories reflect the historical facts of a given case is open to question. But the fact remains that serene resignation at the moment of death is a major element in classical martyr stories. Joseph shooting out the door and getting shot while jumping out the window just doesn't fit the format.In other words, the question isn't what we would do in the same situation. The question is what a martyr would do. And in the Catholic and Protestant traditions, martyrs are idealized heroes who stare Death in the face and make him blink. Joseph's death narrative just doesn't quite fit the Protestant and Catholic idea of martyrdom.Which isn't to say that Joseph isn't a martyr. Just that it's going to be an uphill battle trying to convince a Protestant or Catholic to accept that characterization.Perhaps a better question to ask your Protestant and Catholic interlocutors is this one: if a Protestant missionary had been attacked by an angry mob for his faith and fired into the crowd before he was killed, would you deny that he was a martyr? More to the point, when stories were told back in the US about his sacrifice, would the shooting even be mentioned at all?Ask that question, and someone out there might at least think twice.
Questing Beast Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 The trouble with the pistol is that the Church NEVER acknowledges its existence. In the film "Joseph Smith, The Prophet of the Restoration", both versions, he just goes for the window to draw fire. John Taylor was already shot through the body, so I doubt that he was that cognizant of what Joseph did after that. He added details for the Saints the best he could recollect. The rest is the stuff of legend making; the actual facts always get covered by the glorious details that turn a hideous abattoir into a place of willing, prescient martyrdom: hindsight makes Joseph go willing to certain death....
Calm Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) The trouble with the pistol is that the Church NEVER acknowledges its existence.Right, that's why it's not only mentioned in the Seminary and Institute manuals but there's a picture of it in the Institute manual IIRC and why the gun itself is on display in the Church History Musuem. Edited June 21, 2011 by calmoriah 2
Jeff K. Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 The trouble with the pistol is that the Church NEVER acknowledges its existence. In the film "Joseph Smith, The Prophet of the Restoration", both versions, he just goes for the window to draw fire. John Taylor was already shot through the body, so I doubt that he was that cognizant of what Joseph did after that. He added details for the Saints the best he could recollect. The rest is the stuff of legend making; the actual facts always get covered by the glorious details that turn a hideous abattoir into a place of willing, prescient martyrdom: hindsight makes Joseph go willing to certain death....I trust this will quiet your ridiculous assertion as you slink away with another false charge....Joseph fired six shots to try to stop the mob. Then he ran to the window. Men in the mob shot him, and he fell out of the window.Adapted from Reed Blake, “Martyrdom at Carthage,” Ensign, June 1994, 30–38; see also Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith (Melchizedek Priesthood and Relief Society course of study, 2007), xxi, 23–24, 460, 529–30.Will you Anti Mormons never cease to make thse ridiculous accusations? When will you be openly honest? 1
Jeff K. Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Ensign 1994The four men had two firearms among them, left behind by friends: a single-shot pistol Joseph had passed to Hyrum and a six-shot pistol, called a pepperbox, which the Prophet retained. They also had two walking canes: a large hickory stick called a “rascal-beater” and a smaller walking cane. Joseph’s companions had used both to beat back the rabble while making their way from the Hamilton House to the jail two days earlier.The Prophet dropped to his brother. “Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum,” he groaned. The deep look of sympathy on Joseph’s face fastened itself to Elder Taylor’s mind. The Prophet then stood, and with a firm step he went to the door, pulled the pepperbox from his pocket, and, reaching around the door casing, fired blindly into the hallway. He snapped all six shots. Half discharged, striking three men.26
Mudcat Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Ensign 1994The Prophet dropped to his brother. “Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum,” he groaned. The deep look of sympathy on Joseph’s face fastened itself to Elder Taylor’s mind. The Prophet then stood, and with a firm step he went to the door, pulled the pepperbox from his pocket, and, reaching around the door casing, fired blindly into the hallway. He snapped all six shots. Half discharged, striking three men.26Taylor had a good eye to see round the door casing... don't ya think?
mfbukowski Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Will you Anti Mormons never cease to make thse ridiculous accusations? When will you be openly honest?Just to let you know, that particular Anti Mormon has a temple recommend.He told his bishop he has a testimony of the restoration.How does that frost your cookies?
Jeff K. Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Taylor had a good eye to see round the door casing... don't ya think?Just another gripe after the credibility has been flushed.
Mudcat Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Just another gripe after the credibility has been flushed. Seriously Jeff. You can toss it off as a "gripe" if you like. I don't have a problem with JS being a martyr, Taylor's input or no.You were the one who brought up the citation. Do you think Taylor saw those men shot down?
blackstrap Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 BANG ....OW! BANG ...OW! BANG ...OW ! See how it can be done? Actually I think he just related theresults as established later.
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