Joseph And His Gun…

[Questing Beast]

Those kinds of things are conveniently ignored because there really is no way to spin these events in a way to make Joseph Smith look like an inspired Prophet of God. Some try to do so, but it usually requires more time and explication than a two hour film can provide.

The film is just barely over one hour. So there is even less justified criticism in pointing to things that the editors left out. I am impressed how well they did the job of portraying Joseph Smith as a real person. His character in the film is completely believable. And all positive - which is the rub when we are talking about his full character, personality and history.

But in so short a film the focus must be on "The Prophet", not the militia leader; not the candidate for POTUS; not the polygamist; not the mayor of Nauvoo who ordered the destruction of a libelous newspaper; not even the father of many children, biological as well as foster....

[bookofmormontruth]

This is absolutely false and despicable. I resent any insinuation that I am an anti-Mormon trying to defend the actions of heinous murdering. Is this really all you are left with? No one has addressed my numerous CFR on LeSellers who made more than a few untenable claims. I'm not defending the actions of murderers. But that doesn't mean I have to defend the actions of those trying to recreate history. The fact that Joseph Smith was murdered at the hands of his enemies is grotesque enough. But turning him into a savior of sorts does no credit to the apologetic position, because the available data simply do not support these claims. If Mormons wonder why some Christians accuse them of worshiping Joseph, or at the very least, consider him equal to Christ, then look no further than this thread along with that film depicting his life.

You don't like the anti-Mormon label? Tough! You are all the same with the same talking points (Joseph Smith was no martyr, Joseph Smith had it coming and the mob "accidentally/unintentionally" killed Hyrum, You guys worship Joseph Smith & etc..). The same regurgitation - no original thoughts.

When whining about "untenable claims", you might want to first look at yours.

[Thinking]

“So certain was he of the cause he led, so sure of his divinely-given calling, that he placed them above the value of his own life. With prescient knowledge of his forthcoming death, he surrendered himself to those who would deliver him defenseless into the hands of a mob. He sealed his testimony with his life’s blood.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, October 1981 General Conference)

Statements like this in conjunction with the oft repeated “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter…” give the impression that Joseph did not fight back.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The film is just barely over one hour. So there is even less justified criticism in pointing to things that the editors left out. I am impressed how well they did the job of portraying Joseph Smith as a real person. His character in the film is completely believable. And all positive - which is the rub when we are talking about his full character, personality and history.

But in so short a film the focus must be on "The Prophet", not the militia leader; not the candidate for POTUS; not the polygamist; not the mayor of Nauvoo who ordered the destruction of a libelous newspaper; not even the father of many children, biological as well as foster....

Can you help me figure out where you are going with this?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

“So certain was he of the cause he led, so sure of his divinely-given calling, that he placed them above the value of his own life. With prescient knowledge of his forthcoming death, he surrendered himself to those who would deliver him defenseless into the hands of a mob. He sealed his testimony with his life’s blood.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, October 1981 General Conference)

Statements like this in conjunction with the oft repeated “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter…” give the impression that Joseph did not fight back.

When he made that statement he had no gun, and no reason to believe he would. It was brought in later. He had an Army he could have called on but did not. Also the gun he had against a mob, he was “defenseless”. He was across the Mississippi and free when his friends convinced him to return. He asked Hyrum’s advice and heeded it, knowing what lay ahead. The quote is accurate.

[bookofmormontruth]

I absolutely love that the world is "offended" that we revere and honor our beloved Prophet, Joseph Smith. Must be an anniversary coming up!

Let the music ring!

My link (One of my favorites)

& the following classic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j-ir5rHmQg&feature=related

Edited June 22, 2011 by bookofmormontruth

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

When he made that statement he had no gun, and no reason to believe he would.

Context is everything. JS had know idea that later he would have a gun.

[Thinking]

When he made that statement he had no gun, and no reason to believe he would. It was brought in later. He had an Army he could have called on but did not. Also the gun he had against a mob, he was “defenseless”. He was across the Mississippi and free when his friends convinced him to return. He asked Hyrum’s advice and heeded it, knowing what lay ahead. The quote is accurate.

I know it's accurate. That's my point. That statement gives the impression that Joseph did not fight back.

For the record, I don't think it's a big deal that he defended himself or the others.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Thinking

[Calm]

A relatively detailed account of the martyrdom itself with footnotes...likely has already been posted, am reposting it again as it includes the fact that the death of both Smiths was intended and has one error that I am aware of with John Taylor's watch as it hadn't been forensically examined at that date to determine that it wasn't a bullet that broke it: http://lds.org/ensig...rthage?lang=eng

Shortly, a second rider appeared. He carried a note from the Carthage Greys. The time was at hand to kill the Smiths, the note said. The guards at the jail would offer only token resistance.

Also:

Witness William Daniels testified that Sharp's speech "pointed to the necessity of killing the Smiths to get rid of the Mormons." After the murders, Sharp defended them in the Warsaw Signal calling them an "execution" supported by "some of our most respectable citizens."

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/carthage/defendantsbios.html Edited June 22, 2011 by calmoriah

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I know it's accurate. That's my point. That statement gives the impression that Joseph did not fight back.

For the record, I don't think it's a big deal that he defended himself or the others.

Fighting back could include so many things that most would not consider. Yanking ones arm away when they come to take you to the gallows, studying an unsuccessful escape. The way our critics speak of “Christians martyrs” they went gleefully to their deaths. Christians running from lions in the coliseum is resistance.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I know it's accurate. That's my point. That statement gives the impression that Joseph did not fight back.

For the record, I don't think it's a big deal that he defended himself or the others.

Interesting. I don't think it is a big deal and when one understands the context I am amazed that certain people still take issue. This is one of the biggest non issues I have ever witnessed. IT is about as bad as the "Adieu" argument.

[Calm]

Bukowski, your a bishop. Do you think most of your adult congregation is aware of JS's firearm usage.

Personally, I know five believing LDS who were unaware of it till I brought it up in discussion one day. At the time they didn't believe me.

I am doubtful a poll of the local ward will reveal startlingly different statistics.

I would not be surprised if wards varied in how many knew what especially if there was less turnover in a ward, a dramatic teacher can create a story that will be remembered while a dry teacher leaves one with less idea of what was actually discussed in class unfortunately. Also it is a relatively trivial point in the story at least from the LDS POV and depending on what type of learner someone is, simply hearing it referred to in passing might not stick in their mind.

Myself, I am a visual learner and seeing a picture of it in the Institute manual ( https://lds.org/si/b...-manual_eng.pdf page 281 ) eons ago is what caused it to stick in my brain for good even though I was previously aware of the accusations that JS had killed some men.

The manual has a very detailed account starting on page 273, refers to intent to kill both of the Smiths but without footnote for that specific claim.

Edited June 22, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Dan Jones was not present at the attack, but had accompanied them to the jail and later reported to Governor Ford about the threats he had heard being made to more than just Joseph:

In the morning Dan Jones went down, at the Prophet's request, to learn the cause of a disturbance of the night, and Frank Worrell, the officer of the guard of Carthage Greys, said to Dan:We have had too much trouble to bring old Joe here to let him ever escape alive, and unless you want to die with him, you had better leave before sundown; and you are not a damned bit better than him for taking his part, and you'll see that I can prophesy better than old Joe, for neither he nor his brother, nor anyone who will remain with them, will see the sun set today.

Brother Jones started to find the governor and on the way saw an assemblage of the mob, and heard one of them who was making a speech say:

Our troops will be discharged this morning in obedience to order, and for a sham we will leave the town; but when the governor and the McDonough troops have left for Nauvoo this forenoon, We will return and kill these men, if we have to tear the jail down.

http://www.ida.net/g...tail/whowas.htm Edited June 22, 2011 by calmoriah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

and you'll see that I can prophesy better than old Joe, for neither he nor his brother, nor anyone who will remain with them, will see the sun set today.

Apparently not. Lol.

Good read.

[thesometimesaint]

Thinking:

Lambs fight every way they can when going to the slaughter. It isn't their fault that they don't have much to fight with.

There is a reason for the warning signs around watering holes in Zimbabwe. The crocks will eat you.

[Mudcat]

Well I can tell you we don't make any R rated ones!

And I hope they would all know Joseph had a gun and used it in self defense- if not, I would have to get after the Sunday School teacher for not teaching what was in the manual.

This is from the official Manual on Church History- this is what is taught in Sunday School. Perhaps your relatives were not there that day.

I have underlined the relevant sections.

http://lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-32-to-seal-the-testimony?lang=eng

Bold mine, perhaps not, 3 of the 5 have only returned to activity over the last six years. I looked at the lesson you provided and took a look at some of the other lessons in brief. The ones I saw provided a caveat for the instructor...

Prayerfully select the lesson material that will best meet class members’ needs. Encourage class members to share insights that relate to the scriptural principles.

I think it could also be plausible that the instructor, trying to cover a lot of material in a brief amount of time might have decided that other parts of the provided material may have better suited the classes needs.

I would say probably everyone I know knows that. My kids were with me when we visited Carthage jail- my wife has been there multiple times- I have never seen it as an issue for any member to be perfectly honest.

Well you can say Bukowski, I just don't think it's near as common knowledge as you believe it to be. The only pair of missionaries I had discussed the martyrdom with, were unaware of these details also.

We are not pacifists- many members have guns and would use them in self defense. I personally would as well.

I never claimed you were pacifists. Sorry if I have offended you on the matter.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

I've known about the gun for longer than I care to remember now. It is in our manuals.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Thinking:

Lambs fight every way they can when going to the slaughter. It isn't their fault that they don't have much to fight with.

There is a reason for the warning signs around watering holes in Zimbabwe. The crocks will eat you.

Good job!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Mudcat:

I've known about the gun for longer than I care to remember now. It is in our manuals.

I found out during the missionary discussions; though I freely admit that is not policy. Of course at the time i was serving in the Army and asked why the Nauvoo Legion did not come to his aid.

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

Just because lambs and Joseph didn't fight back effectively doesn't make them any less innocents.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I absolutely love that the world is "offended" that we revere and honor our beloved Prophet, Joseph Smith. Must be an anniversary coming up!

Let the music ring!

My link (One of my favorites)

& the following classic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j-ir5rHmQg&feature=related

This picture brings to mind the time I visited Liberty Jail…very moving. Also some of the most profound scripture in print came from that experience Joseph had there. I made it a point to read it that night after the visit, thanks for the reminder; even though Carthage had a different ending.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa:

Just because lambs and Joseph didn't fight back effectively doesn't make them any less innocents.

True, yet he is called the “Lamb of God”…good point you brought out. Also unlike Christ we are not called to die for the sins of others. He “gave” his life. I would if called to do so, but I do not have the right to offer up my family and friends without a fight.

I found these links…take a look.

First

Second

Edited June 22, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[mfbukowski]

Your theory makes little sense in light of what we know. The mob eventually broke in, forcing Richards up against the wall. There is no indication that they were trying to killing anyone except Joseph Smith. It would have taken all of two seconds to finish off Taylor and Richards had this ever been there intention. But they did not. Even the death of Hyrum was probably unintentional. It happened when a bullet was shot through the panel of the door for the purpose of unlocking it.

For what it's worth, I have seen the door, and put my finger into the hole as have many others.

The hole is nowhere near the lock- it is in the middle of the upper panel, a little below face height, at least for me. Someone shot through the door without knowing who was on the other side, most likely. It would be impossible for someone to shoot at a door lock and hit someone in the face unless he were peeking through the lock.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

For what it's worth, I have seen the door, and put my finger into the hole as have many others.

The hole is nowhere near the lock- it is in the middle of the upper panel, a little below face height, at least for me. Someone shot through the door without knowing who was on the other side, most likely. It would be impossible for someone to shoot at a door lock and hit someone in the face unless he were peeking through the lock.

Correct, he might know that had he been there instead of the anti-net.

[LeSellers]

For what it's worth, I have seen the door, and put my finger into the hole as have many others.

The hole is nowhere near the lock- it is in the middle of the upper panel, a little below face height, at least for me. Someone shot through the door without knowing who was on the other side, most likely. It would be impossible for someone to shoot at a door lock and hit someone in the face unless he were peeking through the lock.

As I recall, the door wouldn't even close properly until John Taylor(?) used his penknife to slice away a bit of the door so it could. How effective a job he'd done is an open question.

It is doubtful, at least in my mind, that the door was locked. Why would it be? It was not the jail cell but the upper room where the jalier lived (at least part time). I'm not even convinced there was a "lock" (as in a latch to assure that no one without a key could pass through it). In any event, the door wasn't closed since the Decorated Cowards of the Carthage Yellows were able to force their muzzles through the doorway.

Lehi