Joseph And His Gun…

[mfbukowski]

One of the more laughable "anti" versions, is that Joseph was killed in a prison break attempt put on by his followers.

I have heard more than once that he was "killed in a gunfight while breaking out of jail". Even your version is a bit more sanitized than that one!

[mfbukowski]

As a new member of the forum, and appearing to be a troll, it's cute that you think that you're important enough to pay attention to.

Perhaps if your tone was more respectful, someone might care what you think.

Appearing as a troll? No question about it!

His whole tone screams "sockpuppet" - which has already been pointed out.

He has been around this argument many times.

[mfbukowski]

Bold mine, perhaps not, 3 of the 5 have only returned to activity over the last six years. I looked at the lesson you provided and took a look at some of the other lessons in brief. The ones I saw provided a caveat for the instructor...

I think it could also be plausible that the instructor, trying to cover a lot of material in a brief amount of time might have decided that other parts of the provided material may have better suited the classes needs.

Well you can say Bukowski, I just don't think it's near as common knowledge as you believe it to be. The only pair of missionaries I had discussed the martyrdom with, were unaware of these details also.

I never claimed you were pacifists. Sorry if I have offended you on the matter.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

My only point was that it is freely taught and certainly not hidden. There are a lot of people who don't know a lot of doctrines which are taught perfectly clearly- I have heard people thank "Heavenly Father" for dying for our sins, I have heard any manner of bizarre understandings of doctrines which are taught clearly.

These are tiny details of the gospel and seen as being of little importance to most Mormons- it's just that some latch onto them and see some sort of "conspiracy" and don't let go!

If you've ever seen Jay Leno discuss US history in his man on the street interviews- or of you have ever watched that show about knowing more than a 5th grader, you know most people have a retention problem for these details. It's unfortunate but true. I have seen many threads on the Catholic boards about the same problem with Catholics knowing their own doctrine.

Our church has recognized the problem and has gone "back to basics" to teach the very fundamentals out of the "Gospel Principles" book in one of the hours of our three- hour meeting schedule each Sunday, in addition to the usual Sunday school and Sacrament meetings.

And you offend me? NO WAY BRO!

mfb

[Thinking]

Lambs fight every way they can when going to the slaughter. It isn't their fault that they don't have much to fight with.

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)

You may well find an actual lamb who fights back, but using the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" means total submission.

[thesometimesaint]

Thinking:

We are supposed to be wiser than serpents yet gentler than doves is also a bit of a misnomer. Actual serpants aren't very wise and birds are just modern day dinosaurs. That some people don't know about actual lambs and so misappropriate the phrase is not my fault. Lambs and Joseph were innocents. Just like those early Christians who did everything they could against lions. They were just ineffective.

Edited June 22, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)

You may well find an actual lamb who fights back, but using the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" means total submission.

Um, no I disagree. Oh well.

[bookofmormontruth]

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)

You may well find an actual lamb who fights back, but using the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" means total submission.

Says who? Who drew the line?

If a lamb going to the slaughter starts to sweat or blinks rapidly (sympathetic state) does this (survival mode fighting to survive) disqualify?

Edited June 22, 2011 by bookofmormontruth

[altersteve]

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)

You may well find an actual lamb who fights back, but using the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" means total submission.

Actually, "lamb to the slaughter" means that one's fate is set in stone. A lamb being led to the slaughter may fight all it wants, but it's going to die. But that does not mean that it won't go down without a struggle.

[Thinking]

We are supposed to be wiser than serpents yet gentler than doves is also a bit of a misnomer. Actual serpants aren't very wise and birds are just modern day dinosaurs. That some people don't know about actual lambs and so misappropriate the phrase is not my fault. Lambs and Joseph were innocents. Just like those early Christians who did everything they could against lions. They were just ineffective.

The phrase came from the Bible, and it's clear what its meaning is. I didn't coin the phrase, nor did I invent the meaning.

[LeSellers]

The phrase came from the Bible, and it's clear what its meaning is. I didn't coin the phrase, nor did I invent the meaning.

Yes, I think you did "invent the meaning".

The Jews of Isaiah's day all knew how a lamb going to slaughter would act. I seriously doubt that many people in XXI USmerica do.

I've never slaughtered a lamb, but I have slaughtered a lot of wethers (close relatives of lambs), and they don't go quietly, I assure you

Lehi

Edited June 22, 2011 by LeSellers

[Bernard Gui]

This is false. Xander your colors are showing.

JS fired 3 shots and hit 3 men all of which appeared at the trial for JS murder. None were killed by JS.

The three men wounded at the jail fled the area and were never brought to trial. The wounds would

have been evidence at trial that they had been at the door of the upstairs room and that they

were guilty. One of them claimed to be the mobber who shot Hyrum.

Bernard

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Appearing as a troll? No question about it!

His whole tone screams "sockpuppet" - which has already been pointed out.

He has been around this argument many times.

Many, many, many times. I am sure I know who he is.

[Pahoran]

If Mormons wonder why some Christians accuse them of worshiping Joseph, or at the very least, consider him equal to Christ, then look no further than this thread along with that film depicting his life.

Point of order: since Christians do not bear false witness against their neighbours, it follows that no "Christians accuse [the Latter-day Saints] of worshiping Joseph, or at the very least, consider him equal to Christ." This is a notorious anti-Mormon canard, repeated not by Christians, but by cynical and malicious demagogues.

Just so you know.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Actually, "lamb to the slaughter" means that one's fate is set in stone. A lamb being led to the slaughter may fight all it wants, but it's going to die. But that does not mean that it won't go down without a struggle.

Good point like TSS.

[Thinking]

Yes, I think you did "invent the meaning".

Since I invented the meaning, will you be a witness for me when I petition websites like wordnik for proper credit. If I invented its meaning, the world needs to know.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Point of order: since Christians do not bear false witness against their neighbours, it follows that no "Christians accuse [the Latter-day Saints] of worshiping Joseph, or at the very least, consider him equal to Christ." This is a notorious anti-Mormon canard, repeated not by Christians, but by cynical and malicious demagogues.

Just so you know.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Regards,

Pahoran

And smacks of someone banned from here many times.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Since I invented the meaning, will you be a witness for me when I petition websites like wordnik for proper credit. If I invented its meaning, the world needs to know.

I hate when that happens.

[LeSellers]

Since I invented the meaning, will you be a witness for me when I petition websites like wordnik for proper credit. If I invented its meaning, the world needs to know.

I doubt you went to wordnik before posting that message. I believe in independent invention. You'll have to run that race on your own.

The fact that words (and phrases) change meaning over time does not mean that Joseph had to meet XXI "standards" when he used the phrase.

Have you, personally, ever slaughtered an animal—in particular, a lamb (or something very similar)?

Lehi

[Vance]

I've never slaughtered a lamb, but I have slaughtered a lot of wethers (close relatives of lambs), and they don't go quietly, I assure you

Lehi

It is a problem in our modern society that most people have no clue what it takes to put meat on the table.

[Thinking]

I doubt you went to wordnik before posting that message. I believe in independent invention. You'll have to run that race on your own.

The fact that words (and phrases) change meaning over time does not mean that Joseph had to meet XXI "standards" when he used the phrase.

Have you, personally, ever slaughtered an animal—in particular, a lamb (or something very similar)?

I was taught that meaning in LDS sunday school and seminary. I only found corroboration after you accused me of inventing the meaning. I could have listed more websites. The fact that I have not slaughtered a single animal in my life does not change what I was taught by LDS instructors.

[Bernard Gui]

He certainly wasn't going to survive had he stayed in the room. The others did, however, and contrary to your predictions of what would, could or should have happened, they were left alone. No one sought their lives, let alone the mutilation of their bodies.

Saved two lives? Those lives were not threatened once the mob became aware of Joseph's death. If he really wanted to ensure their safety, it seems to me that he would have told them to leave the jail before trouble arrived. And after realizing a mob had approached the jail, it seems to me that he would have made sure no one was standing by the window. Whomever shot at Hyrum from outside probably believed he was shooting at Joseph.

You may wish to revise your beliefs after reading the following resolution published in the Warsaw Signal shortly before the murder of the Smith brothers. (Bold mine)

Bernard

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/sign184x.htm

At a mass meeting of the citizens of Hancock County, convened at Carthage on the 13th day of June, 1844, Mr. Knox was appointed President, John Doty and Lewis F. Evans, Vice Presidents, and Wm. Y. Head, Secretary.

Henry Stephens, Esq., presented the following resolutions, passed at a meeting of the Citizens of Warsaw, and urged the adoption of them as the sense of this meeting:

PREAMBLE AND RESOLUTIONS.

WHEREAS information has reached us, about which there can be no question, that the authorities of Nauvoo, did recently pass an Ordinance declaring Printing Press and Newspaper published by the opponents of the Prophet, a nuisance, and in pursuance thereof, did direct the Marshal of the city, and his adherents to enter by force, the building from whence the paper was issued, and violently, (if necessary,) to take possession of the press and printing materials, and thereafter to burn and destroy the same. And WHEREAS, in pursuance of said ordinance, the Marshall and his adherents together with the mob of Mormons, did after sunset on the evening of the 10th, inst., violently enter said building in a tumultuous manner. Burnt and destroyed the press and other materials found on the premises.

And WHEREAS, Hiram Smith did in presence of the City Council, and the citizens of Nauvoo, offer a reward for the destruction of the printing press and materials of the Warsaw Signal, -- a newspaper also opposed to his interest.

And WHEREAS, the liberty of the press is one of the cardinal principles of our government, firmly guaranteed by the several Constitutions of the States, as well as the United States.

And WHEREAS, Hiram Smith has within the last week publicly threatened the life of one of our valued citizens -- Thos. C. Sharp, the editor of the Signal.

Therefore, be it solemnly Resolved. By the citizens of Warsaw in Public Meeting assembled,

That we view the recent ordinance of the City of Nauvoo, and the proceedings hereunder, as an outrage, of an alarming character, revolutionary and tyrannical in its tendency, and being under colour of law, as calculated to subvert and destroy the minds of the community, all reliance on the Law.

Resolved. That as a Community, we feel anxious, when possible to redress our grievances by legal remedies; but the time has now arrived, when the Law has ceased to be a protection to our lives and property a mob at Nauvoo under a city ordinance, has violated the highest privilege in our Government, and to seek redress in the ordinary mode, would be utterly ineffectual.

Resolved. That the public threat made on the Council of the City, not only to destroy our Printing Press, but to take the life of its Editor, is sufficient, in connection with the recent outrages, to command the efforts and services of every good citizen, to put an immediate stop to the career of the mad Prophet and his demonized coadjutors. We must not only defend ourselves from danger, but we must resolutely carry the War into the enemy's Camp; We do therefore declare, that we will sustain our Press and the Editor, at all hazards. That we will take full vengeance, -- terrible vengeance, should the lives of any of our citizens be lost in the effort. That we hold ourselves at all times in readiness to co-operate with our fellow citizens in this State, Missouri and Iowa, to exterminate, utterly exterminate, the wicked and abominable Mormon Leaders, the authors of our troubles.

Resolved. That a Committee of five be appointed forthwith to notify all persons in our Township suspected of being the tools of the Prophet, to leave immediately on pain of instant vengeance. And we do recommend the inhabitants of the adjacent Townships to do the same, hereby pledging ourselves to render all the assistance they may require.

Resolved. That the time, in our opinion has arrived, when the adherents of Smith, as a body, should be driven from the surrounding settlements, into Nauvoo. That the Prophet and his miscreant adherents, should then be demanded at their hands, and if not surrendered, a war of extermination should be waged, to them [sic, their?] entire destruction, if necessary for our protection, of his adherents. And we do hereby recommend this resolution to the consideration of the several Townships, to the Mass Convention, to be held at Carthage; hereby pledging ourselves to aid, to the utmost, the complete consummation of the object in view, that we may thereby be utterly relieved of the alarm, anxiety and trouble, to which we are now subjected.

Resolved. That every citizen arm himself, to be prepared to sustain the resolutions herein contained.

Mr. Roosevelt rose, and made a brief, but eloquent speech; and called upon the citizens throughout the country to render efficient aid in carrying out the spirit of the resolutions. M. Roosevelt then moved a Committee of seven be appointed by the Chair to draft resolutions expressive of our action in future.

M. Catlin, moved to amend the motion of Mr. Roosevelt, so that the Committee should consist of one from each precinct, which motion was amended, was adopted.

The Chair then appointed the following: Col. Levi Williams, Rocky Run Precinct; Joel Catlin, Augusta; Saml. Williams, Carthage; Elisha Worrell, Chili; Capt. Madison, St. Marys; John M. Ferris, Fountain Green; James Rice, Pilot Grove; John Carns, Bear Creek; C. L. Higbee, Nauvoo; Geo. Robinson, La Harpe; and Geo. Rockwell, Warsaw, were appointed said Committee.

On motion of Mr. Sympson, Walter Bagby, Esq., was requested to address the meeting during the absence of the Committee. He spoke long and eloquently upon the cause of our grievances, and expressed his belief that the time was now at hand, when we were individually and collectively called upon to expel the innovations upon our liberties; and suggested that points be designated as places of encampment, at which to rendezvous our forces -- that we may be ready when called upon for efficient action.

Dr. Burns, one of the persons who went with the officers to Nauvoo, for the purpose of arresting the rioters, having just arrived, came into the meeting, and reported the result of their proceedings -- which was, that the persons charged in the writs, were duly arrested, but taken from the officers hands on a writ of habeas corpus from the Municipal Court, and discharged, and the-following potent words entered upon the records -- HONORABLY DISCHARGED.

On motion of O. C. Skinner, Esq., a vote of thanks was tendered to Dr. Burns for volunteering his services in executing said writs.

Francis M. Higbee, was now loudly called for. He stated his personal knowledge of the Mormons, from their earliest history, throughout their hellish career in Missouri and this State -- which has been characterized by the darkest and most diabolical deeds which has ever disgraced humanity.

The Committee appointed to draft resolutions, brought in the following report, which after some considerable discussion was unanimously adopted:

Whereas, the officer charged with the execution of a writ, against Joseph Smith and others, for riot in the county of Hancock, which said writ said officer has served upon said Smith and others -- and whereas, said Smith and others refuse to obey the mandate of said writ -- and whereas, in the opinion of this meeting it is impossible for said officer, to raise a posse of sufficient strength to execute said writ -- and whereas; it is the opinion of this meeting that the riot is still progressing, and that violence is meditated, and determined on. It is the opinion of this meeting that the circumstances of the case require the interposition of Executive power. Therefore,

Resolved. That a deputation of two discreet men, be sent to Springfield to solicit such interposition.

2nd Resolved. That said deputation be furnished with a certified copy of this resolution -- and be authorized to obtain evidence by affidavit, and otherwise in regard to the violence, which has already been committed, and is still further meditated.

Dr. Evans here rose and expressed his wish that the above resolutions would not retard our operations -- but that we would each one arm and equip ourselves forthwith.

The resolutions passed at Warsaw were again read by Dr. Burnes, and passed by acclamation.

On motion of A. S. Sympson, Esq., the suggestion of Mr. Bagby appointing places of encampment, was adopted, to wit: Warsaw, Carthage, Green Plains, Spilman's Landing, Chili and La Harp.

On motion, O. C. Skinner and Walter Bagby, Esqrs., were appointed: a Committee, to bear the resolutions adopted by this meeting, to his Excellency, the Governor, requiring his executive interposition.

On motion of J. H. Sherman, a Central Corresponding Committee was appointed.

Ordered, That J. H. Sherman, H. R. Wilson, Chauncy Robinson, Wm. S. Freeman, Thos. Morrison, F. M. Higbee, Lyman Prentiss and Stephen H. Tyler, be said Committee.

On motion of Geo. Rockwell,

Resolved, That Constables in the different precincts hold themselves in readiness to obey the officer in possession of the writs, whenever called upon, in summoning the posse.

On motion the meeting adjourned

JOHN KNOX, Pres't.

John Doty,

Lewis F. Evans, V. Pres'ts.

W. Y. Head, Secretary.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[thesometimesaint]

Thinking:

I also quoted the Bible particularly Jesus to his followers. I like Lehi think that most 21st Century Americans with our prepackaged foods from all over the world have little to no experience with the slaughter of animals. 19th Century Americans weren't so blessed.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The three men wounded at the jail fled the area and were never brought to trial. The wounds would

have been evidence at trial that they had been at the door of the upstairs room and that they

were guilty. One of them claimed to be the mobber who shot Hyrum.

Bernard

From what I gather from the FAIR essay is that they showed up at the trial not that they participated in the trial. I may have misunderstood what you were saying here though.

[LeSellers]

I was taught that meaning in LDS sunday school and seminary. I only found corroboration after you accused me of inventing the meaning. I could have listed more websites. The fact that I have not slaughtered a single animal in my life does not change what I was taught by LDS instructors.

What you learned in Sunday School, Seminary, or Primary is not the issue here.

You claimed that his going like a lamb to the slaughter was, in essence, a lie. It was not.

You said the meaning is obvious. It is not, at least, it is not what you claimed it to have been.

Lehi

Edited June 22, 2011 by LeSellers

[Thinking]

What you learned in Sunday School, Seminary, or Primary is not the issue here.

Yes it is because you accused me of inventing the meaning, and I simply told you where I learned it.

You claimed that his going like a lamb to the slaughter was, in essence, a lie. It was not.

Are you referring to this?

"Statements like this in conjunction with the oft repeated 'I am going like a lamb to the slaughter…' give the impression that Joseph did not fight back."

You said the meaning is obvious. It is not, at least, it is not what you claimed it to have been.

The meaning, as taught to me by my LDS instructors, was obvious to me and apparently to much of the world.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Thinking