Joseph And His Gun…

[Jeff K.]

Seriously Jeff. You can toss it off as a "gripe" if you like. I don't have a problem with JS being a martyr, Taylor's input or no.

You were the one who brought up the citation. Do you think Taylor saw those men shot down?

I think he might have, but I cannot be sure. I certainly won't make a definitive statement about it, nor accuse the church or someone else of lying when I am not sure.

[blueadept]

The problem with the idea of Joseph Smith as a martyr isn't so much that he did anything wrong, as that it doesn't fit the standard format of a Christian martyrdom narrative. It's not uncommon for people to try to escape death in Christian martyrology, but usually the actual moment of death is characterized by an acceptance of the inevitable and surrender to the will of God. There comes a moment in the narrative where the prospect of escape is given up, and the person becomes serenely resigned to die for the Gospel. Of course, whether such stories reflect the historical facts of a given case is open to question. But the fact remains that serene resignation at the moment of death is a major element in classical martyr stories. Joseph shooting out the door and getting shot while jumping out the window just doesn't fit the format.

In other words, the question isn't what we would do in the same situation. The question is what a martyr would do. And in the Catholic and Protestant traditions, martyrs are idealized heroes who stare Death in the face and make him blink. Joseph's death narrative just doesn't quite fit the Protestant and Catholic idea of martyrdom.

Which isn't to say that Joseph isn't a martyr. Just that it's going to be an uphill battle trying to convince a Protestant or Catholic to accept that characterization.

That essentially summarizes my skewed viewpoint in regards to martyrdom. Various wild west gun fights to the death (even lopsided ones such as Joseph Smith's case) simply don't compare to the early Christian martyrs who were burned at the stake, crucified, beheaded or fed to the lions. I appreciate the thought that LDS view him as a martyr though. This is not a worthy debate since no one is going to change their mind on the subject.

Perhaps a better question to ask your Protestant and Catholic interlocutors is this one: if a Protestant missionary had been attacked by an angry mob for his faith and fired into the crowd before he was killed, would you deny that he was a martyr? More to the point, when stories were told back in the US about his sacrifice, would the shooting even be mentioned at all?

I don't believe priests and clergy of my faith are well-known to be touting guns but dying none the less. IMHO, if they used a gun, I don't tend to give them the martyr label but that's just me. Edited June 21, 2011 by blueadept

[Jeff K.]

Did Peter's act of defiance with a sword create a dismissal of the definition of martyrdom with Christ? I state this because I would also attach the ideal, whether by Christ or one of His servants is it not the same?

Also let us consider more saliently the Martyrs of Bulgaria celebrated on Feastday July 23 (sometime in the 9th century). They died in battle AND were put to death. The issue occurred to me because I remember it being somewhat celebrated in Sofia by Catholics there when I was visiting.

Here is further reference:

Martyrs of Bulgaria (850)

Feast day – July 23

Caught in the war between the Byzantine Empire and pagan infested Bulgaria, many Christians were slain in battle for Christ while others were executed by the pagans for their faith in God.

There is no list of names to commemorate these souls but they are given this day as their celebration and celebrate we must; for those who died only to be born again.

Saints Day

In other words dying in battle does not diminish martyrdom, at least not in some of the oldest positions in known Christendom. So would everyone now please move the goal posts back to where they were.

[Jeff K.]

That essentially summarizes my skewed viewpoint in regards to martyrdom. Various wild west gun fights to the death (even lopsided ones such as Joseph Smith's case) simply don't compare to the early Christian martyrs who were burned at the stake, crucified, beheaded or fed to the lions. I appreciate the thought that LDS view him as a martyr though. This is not a worthy debate since no one is going to change their mind on the subject.

I don't believe priests and clergy of my faith are well-known to be touting guns but dying none the less. IMHO, if they used a gun, I don't tend to give them the martyr label but that's just me.

Not in modern times perhaps. But if you read the Songs of Roland and other period pieces you will see that priests and bishops were warlords and martyrs.

[blueadept]

Not in modern times perhaps. But if you read the Songs of Roland and other period pieces you will see that priests and bishops were warlords and martyrs.

Thank you for the reference. I'll check it out. I will admit to not being too familiar with the saints of the Eastern Churches.

[Jeff K.]

I was named, in a sense, after the warrior Roland and his battles in Spain. For that reason I tended to know some of the issues. The Catholic church handed out a number of martyrdom titles. One could argue if all were legitimate or not. But it is difficult to deny that many did die fighting for the church which was significantly less passive in its earlier days. Were it not for Martel, odds (on a historical basis) are we would be going to a mosque today.

[Anijen]

Not in modern times perhaps. But if you read the Songs of Roland and other period pieces you will see that priests and bishops were warlords and martyrs.

IIRC the Songs of Roland was written well after the actual battle and certain embellishments were taken especially concerning the attributes of Roland and those of Ganlon. However the point of martyrdom is a good one to show that martyrs in fact do not necessarily have to resign themselves to their fate.

In fact I remember reading something to the fact that during the Battle of Malta those crusaders who were defending Fort St. Elmo are considered martyrs and they definitely went down fighting.

[Jeff K.]

Songs of Roland were definately "embellished". Almost took up the trumpet calling it "Oliphant". Luckily (for the music world) I realized my lack of talent focused on classical gazoo.

[blueadept]

Since I'm traveling to Spain in August for World Youth Day, I've been meaning to look up a few historical things about the church in that area. That sounds like a good starting point.

[Jeff K.]

Spain is a facinating place. In envy your trip.

[Jeff K.]

If you have the chance, pick up a reproduction of the Toledo Salamanca sword. Very cool.

http://www.historicalfencing.org/Macdonaldarmory/toledosalamanca.htm

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm sure he leaped for the window doing exactly what you said, trying to escape like any normal TRAPPED human being would do. He had no idea that the Mob was thronging even more thickly below the window, but in the last instant of his life he made that discovery....

Yet they were firing through the window, he leaded into the window to draw their fire to save his friends. He knew their bloodlust would be satisfied with his death. Then the cowards fired 4 more bullets into his body after he was dead, then they ran. Many were probably in Christian Churches on Sunday.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You were the one who brought up the citation. Do you think Taylor saw those men shot down?

No witnesses from outside. John Taylor's account was based on this. As for misfire of three rounds...he was an eyewitness.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The problem with the idea of Joseph Smith as a martyr isn't so much that he did anything wrong, as that it doesn't fit the standard format of a Christian martyrdom narrative. It's not uncommon for people to try to escape death in Christian martyrology, but usually the actual moment of death is characterized by an acceptance of the inevitable and surrender to the will of God. There comes a moment in the narrative where the prospect of escape is given up, and the person becomes serenely resigned to die for the Gospel. Of course, whether such stories reflect the historical facts of a given case is open to question. But the fact remains that serene resignation at the moment of death is a major element in classical martyr stories. Joseph shooting out the door and getting shot while jumping out the window just doesn't fit the format.

Tell that to John Taylor who was an eyewitness. If Joseph sought to save himself an abandon his friends, I do not think John Taylor would have gone on to be President of the Church.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The trouble with the pistol is that the Church NEVER acknowledges its existence. In the film "Joseph Smith, The Prophet of the Restoration", both versions, he just goes for the window to draw fire. John Taylor was already shot through the body, so I doubt that he was that cognizant of what Joseph did after that. He added details for the Saints the best he could recollect. The rest is the stuff of legend making; the actual facts always get covered by the glorious details that turn a hideous abattoir into a place of willing, prescient martyrdom: hindsight makes Joseph go willing to certain death....

I learned of the pistol in Church, accounts have been written concerning it. The film did not also show him getting shot in the window or the four shots while he lay dead. I fail to see what the issue is? You could not be more wrong. Loved how you caped "NEVER" for effect.Take a look

Edited June 21, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The trouble with the pistol is that the Church NEVER acknowledges its existence. In the film "Joseph Smith, The Prophet of the Restoration", both versions, he just goes for the window to draw fire. John Taylor was already shot through the body, so I doubt that he was that cognizant of what Joseph did after that. He added details for the Saints the best he could recollect. The rest is the stuff of legend making; the actual facts always get covered by the glorious details that turn a hideous abattoir into a place of willing, prescient martyrdom: hindsight makes Joseph go willing to certain death....

I learned of the pistol in Church, accounts have been written concerning it. The film did not also show him getting shot in the window or the four shots while he lay dead. I fail to see what the issue is? You could not be more wrong. Loved how you caped "NEVER" for effect. If anyone ever came for me for my beliefs, I might let them come, if I had family and friends in the house...books would be written about what I would (and did) do.

[Questing Beast]

Writing in a hurry never works. I meant in Church-made films dramatizing the Carthage jail murders; the pistol is never there. You might have gathered from the context of my comment that I was talking about that and not written accounts....

[bookofmormontruth]

Writing in a hurry never works. I meant in Church-made films dramatizing the Carthage jail murders; the pistol is never there. You might have gathered from the context of my comment that I was talking about that and not written accounts....

Kinda like leaving out the most important parts in your Temple recommend interview? Seems to be a pattern.

[Questing Beast]

I shoulda known better than to even bring that up here, or anywhere else on the Net. Candor is never appreciated by the small-minded bigots of our species, but will ever be taken by their ilk and used to flail the author with. To what end or for what purpose, only the thieves can say. If making me out to be a lying, conniving apostate makes your faith stronger, then I guess that's one positive outcome of my being an omadhaun...

[Jeff K.]

How does The trouble with the pistol is that the Church NEVER acknowledges its existence makes "on film" such a little oversight? Especially when it has been made clear to you specifically that it was taught in seminary, well known in the church, and the information is clearly established and acknowledged.

It is one thing to critique a movie and say something was left out. I do it all the time with historical remakes. It is another to critique an entire religion because a movie missed a detail.

[LeSellers]

The trouble with the pistol is that the Church NEVER acknowledges its existence.

Right, that's why it's not only mentioned in the Seminary and Institute manuals but there's a picture of it in the Institute manual IIRC and why the gun itself is on display in the Church History Musuem.

"But," one might hear the beast say, "that's all for adults."

So we're left to point out that it's in the Primary manuals, too. I can't copy the text right now, but it's in Primary 5. It's written for 5~6 year olds. So we now see that beast is right: we "never acknowledge it".

Lehi

[Anijen]

Writing in a hurry never works. I meant in Church-made films dramatizing the Carthage jail murders; the pistol is never there. You might have gathered from the context of my comment that I was talking about that and not written accounts....

One reason the church does this is for missionary work. Don't get me wrong they have no intention to hide it and they do not. For example while I was participating in the Nauvoo pageant Elder Jensen spoke and in his talk he told us how The church works in Missouri and Illinois through the pioneer clubs and pageants etc. Many of the people who live in these areas (Nauvoo, Farwest other areas) are descendants of those who might have participated in violence against the Saints. Many of these local people come to the pageant each year. When the Nauvoo pageant was written and given to President Hinckley to make final changes, he asked that they do not detail his death at Carthage because they wanted the whole pageant an uplifting experience without the sad reminder of such a violent death that many of the local people could be related to. So the Death scene has Joseph and Hyrum walking off the stage into the audience on their way to Carthage and the spotlight goes off, that's about it. We know it was more violent than that and the church does not hide the fact and we believe that both Hyrum and Joseph were martyred. But if it does not give the specific details it doesn't mean they are hiding it. I think in many situations they want to remain on topic that is probably the restoration of Christs church and not veer toward his Joseph and Hyrums violent death.

[Bernard Gui]

Future apostle Dallin Oaks wrote the definitive book on the trial of the murderers of Joseph and Hyrum. It includes an extensive account of the events in the jail Three men were slightly wounded by Joseph and his pistol, but they were never brought to trial. If the church is so intent on covering up the pistol event, why would Oaks be rewarded with such an honored position?

Bernard

Edited June 21, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Writing in a hurry never works. I meant in Church-made films dramatizing the Carthage jail murders; the pistol is never there. You might have gathered from the context of my comment that I was talking about that and not written accounts....

I only know of this film; are there others?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I shoulda known better than to even bring that up here, or anywhere else on the Net. Candor is never appreciated by the small-minded bigots of our species, but will ever be taken by their ilk and used to flail the author with. To what end or for what purpose, only the thieves can say. If making me out to be a lying, conniving apostate makes your faith stronger, then I guess that's one positive outcome of my being an omadhaun...

Whom do you refer too? Also I don't think "Bigot" works in this case. From the "small minded TBM such as me"