Joseph And His Gun…

[Xander]

"...[Taylor] rolled under the bed which stood by his side, where he lay motionless, the mob from the door continuing to fire upon him, cutting away a piece of flesh from his left hip as large as a man's hand, and were hindered only by knocking down their muzzles with a stick; while they continued to reach their guns into the room, probably left handed, and aimed their discharge so far round as almost to reach us in the corner of the room to where we retreated and dodged, and then I recommenced the attack with my stick."

You cite this as if it supports what you said, when it really reinforces my orginal point. Only the guns made their way into the room, not the men (as you claimed).

If you had just seen your best friends murdered, had been shot 4 times and were cowering motionless under a bed, how lucid would you be?

Are you kidding? Taylor's account of the event was particularly lucid and detailed.

How many details of an event that took only a few minutes would you remember? How many details could he see from under the bed?

Not what he could see, but what he could hear. Taylor heard nothing of men running back up the stairs.

The account of the return of the mob is appended to Richards' account, but was probably not written by Richards. There is no reason to doubt its veracity.

You mean, just because you don't have the faintest clue who said it, or what position they would be in to speak as an authority on the matter. No, there is no reason to doubt it at all. Again, your original source stated that the "Mormons are coming" warning was given after the mob left the upstairs. But you're saying they were on their way back upstairs when the warning was given, and they fled as a result.

The account of the mob fleeing is well attested in the trial record.

I never questioned this. I only took your source and read the context, and determined that it could not be used to argue what you're trying to argue.

Who knows?

Precisely. Taylor says it was just a rumor, and you have no idea who said this. All you know is that an LDS publication included this tid-bit to help shape the "Joseph Smith as Hero" theme, which is expected when respected loved ones are killed. You see the same thing happen when troops die in battle. Folks tend to come up with all sorts of stories to honor their life, whether they are true or not doesn't seem to matter. And I should point out that you're putting all yoru trust in an unsupported rumor because the Church published it, and yet you turn around and try to discredit the idea that Joseph Smith killed at least one of his aattackers, even though this was also published by the Church in the Millenial Star. You seem to be picking and choosing what you want to accept as history, and what you want to blow aside as rumor.

I don't think the mob intended to have a shoot-out with well-armed Mormon militias.

You're probably right about that.

Their actions after the assassination indicate they were not up for a fair fight. What was planned was to drive the Mormons into Nauvoo, kill their leaders, and force them to leave or die.

I think the evidence for this is a bit ambiguous.

[thesometimesaint]

QB:

I'm not nearly that stinting in my definition of martyr. But being a martyr for a cause doesn't in and of itself make that the religion of the martyr correct. IE., Benazir was a martyr for her cause. After years of military strongmen a legitimate government in Pakistan. I don't have to agree with her religion to make her a martyr.

[frankenstein]

Back to the issue of not being taught. Today was the first time my life long RM wife learned about the pistol. I was talking to her about the discussion here and she "Are you sure he had one" I said "Yes, it is even published in a Ensign article, he got the pistol from a person who was allowed to visit the jail."

So I guess like the law, once it is published then no one has strong defense for not knowing about it.

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

Good for your wife in saying she didn't know.

I believe that not one of us has ALL the information about the last days of Joseph Smith. We will continue to learn more. But I don't believe that not knowing something is an excuse for not knowing. Just admit we don't know and move on. That is unltimately how we learn.

[Xander]

My wife's entire family didn't know about it, and her brother is a Bishop.

Granted, they are a Brazilian family, but still...

[thesometimesaint]

Xander:

We're adding about 300,000 new members a year. There are literally Bishops who one year before were just newly baptised. So it does not surprise me that some tidbit of information escapes everyones knowledge. But that is no excuse for not knowing, it is a reason to learn more.

The information is readily available and has been repeatedly published by the Church. The Church has a rotating schedule of Sunday School lessons. Every four years we have the opportunity to learn something new or have the old reiterated. It really isn't the Churchs' fault that some don't know.