Joseph And His Gun…

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I didn't know that was the case. It's news to me.

Would you cite a source for the information?

Eyewitness accounts.

Here is one of many.

Did you also know that poor Lucy Mack Smith had to bury “three” sons inside of three weeks because of the events of that day? Another brother fleeing from the mob got sick and died a couple of weeks after. Willard Richards who was unharmed also gave a narrative of the day’s events.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[changed]

Joseph didn't kill anyone.

Those he shot at had already killed his brother, and were going to (if they could) desecrate his body, too.

Lehi

I thought Joseph killed two people, and wounded one - (just as they killed two people and wounded one?)

[Flyonthewall]

As I understood it, the 3 men who were actually hit by a shot from Joseph's pistol were not killed instantly, but were later arrested and put on trial.

Of the 9 men arrested for Josephs murder, 3 were arrested because of wounds received at the jail, and according to testimony, none of them died.

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/jsmartyr.pdf

[Jeff K.]

You know the NFL would go broke if they moved the goal posts as much as these anti Mormons do.

First there was the claim if you had a gun or fought upon your death you somehow weren't a martyr. That was shown to be a false assertion given earlier traditions.

Then there was the claim that somehow the church was hiding the information it was taught that Joseph Smith never ever EVER was shown to have a gun by the church.

Once again, it was shot down and shown that it was taught, it was taught in seminary, in the Ensign, in the Liahona, Apostles spoke of it and taught it.

But wait, (as another bullet in the chamber misfired), it wasn't in the "movie" version.... and therefore somehow, the church is "hiding it".

Then of course there was the retreat to the anecdotal... "Personally, I know five believing LDS who were unaware of it till I brought it up in discussion one day. At the time they didn't believe me." frankly Mudcat, given the errors you have produced so far, it may not be the shock of finding out Joseph had a gun, but rather your claim based on the reputation your errors build around you. Let us say your credibility have more holes than most targets do.

But that is irrelevant to the point that judging anecdotally whether "five members" that you know were unaware Joseph had a gun upon his martydom was somehow evidence that the church was hiding information. The information was out there, it is taught, it is readily availble. One cannot do more than that.

Now what.... now we have sidekick number 643 coming out and saying, but wait, wait, wait.... I am busy moving the goal posts again....

Xander doesn't like the fact Joseph had the gun, even though he claims the crowd was just going to kill Joseph. Now that elicited a chuckle as another bullet fires wide of the mark. Does Xander know what he is saying?

As to mobs, Xander believes mobs are precision instruments that surgically take out specific individuals. Mobs never kill several people, they are disciplined groups that have a specific job or goal in mind and like good deep woods campers, they come and go without leaving even a leaf unturned. Indeed the very term mob means a disciplined organized multitude.

So, what is the pattern here? Why its simple.

Nothing will make those crazy guys happy. It doesn't matter what you tell them, what information is given. Having bent over backwards to show all this, you are left with little more than griping anti Mormons who are upset that entire websites from their type of people have been shot down and made useless. These people are amazing. God could appear before them and tell them the church is true, and they would still claim the church is really false, after all, God wasn't wearing a tie, and the President of the Church was, therefore.......

[Anijen]

Eyewitness accounts.

Here is one of many.

Did you also know that poor Lucy Mack Smith had to bury “three” sons inside of three weeks because of the events of that day? Another brother fleeing from the mob got sick and died a couple of weeks after. Willard Richards who was unharmed also gave a narrative of the day’s events.

Samuel Smith is sometimes referred to as the third martyr. He died July 30 (34 days after Joseph and Hyrum died) from a side injury he obtained from riding away from the mob (although he was fleeing from a mob, he was riding toward Carthage not away).

Edited June 22, 2011 by Anijen

[LeSellers]

I thought Joseph killed two people, and wounded one - (just as they killed two people and wounded one?)

I assume that the following is in reply to the above.

As I understood it, the 3 men who were actually hit by a shot from Joseph's pistol were not killed instantly, but were later arrested and put on trial.

This is true, but could be misleading. They did not merely fail to die "instantly", none of them died from the wounds received that day.

Your further comment, that the nine were not killed for the murder, is also true, but could, again, be misunderstood. None was even convicted.

Three didn't even show up for the trial. At least one of these received a new suit from a grateful community. The town also rewarded the other two, but I do not recall what their gifts were.

Lehi

[bookofmormontruth]

You know the NFL would go broke if they moved the goal posts as much as these anti Mormons do.

First there was the claim if you had a gun or fought upon your death you somehow weren't a martyr. That was shown to be a false assertion given earlier traditions.

Then there was the claim that somehow the church was hiding the information it was taught that Joseph Smith never ever EVER was shown to have a gun by the church.

Once again, it was shot down and shown that it was taught, it was taught in seminary, in the Ensign, in the Liahona, Apostles spoke of it and taught it.

But wait, (as another bullet in the chamber misfired), it wasn't in the "movie" version.... and therefore somehow, the church is "hiding it".

Then of course there was the retreat to the anecdotal... "Personally, I know five believing LDS who were unaware of it till I brought it up in discussion one day. At the time they didn't believe me." frankly Mudcat, given the errors you have produced so far, it may not be the shock of finding out Joseph had a gun, but rather your claim based on the reputation your errors build around you. Let us say your credibility have more holes than most targets do.

But that is irrelevant to the point that judging anecdotally whether "five members" that you know were unaware Joseph had a gun upon his martydom was somehow evidence that the church was hiding information. The information was out there, it is taught, it is readily availble. One cannot do more than that.

Now what.... now we have sidekick number 643 coming out and saying, but wait, wait, wait.... I am busy moving the goal posts again....

Xander doesn't like the fact Joseph had the gun, even though he claims the crowd was just going to kill Joseph. Now that elicited a chuckle as another bullet fires wide of the mark. Does Xander know what he is saying?

As to mobs, Xander believes mobs are precision instruments that surgically take out specific individuals. Mobs never kill several people, they are disciplined groups that have a specific job or goal in mind and like good deep woods campers, they come and go without leaving even a leaf unturned. Indeed the very term mob means a disciplined organized multitude.

So, what is the pattern here? Why its simple.

Nothing will make those crazy guys happy. It doesn't matter what you tell them, what information is given. Having bent over backwards to show all this, you are left with little more than griping anti Mormons who are upset that entire websites from their type of people have been shot down and made useless. These people are amazing. God could appear before them and tell them the church is true, and they would still claim the church is really false, after all, God wasn't wearing a tie, and the President of the Church was, therefore.......

Even the death of Hyrum was probably unintentional. It happened when a bullet was shot through the panel of the door for the purpose of unlocking it.

What is more revealing is that these anti-Mormon's disgust for Joseph Smith is that they end up defending the mob's actions. You know, raping, murdering and pillaging the Saints? It was all "unintentional". Joseph Smith "deserved" it.

If given the chance these anti-Mormons would be running around with the same cowardly mob.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Samuel Smith is sometimes referred to as the third martyr. He died July 30 (34 days after Joseph and Hyrum died) from a side injury he obtained from riding away from the mob (although he was fleeing from a mob, he was riding toward Carthage not away).

Thanks for the correct info...the Smith's were not cowards as depicted. Once again, the burden this mother had to bare.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

And a lot of members haven't read past 2 Nephi so what does it matter if they know that Joseph Smith had a gun? In the grand scheme of things, there are more important things to know like reading past 2 Nephi for an example.

Two great sermons…2 Nephi 9-10, (which is the best sermon on the atonement ever delivered) and Mosiah 1-5. Alma the younger was not slouch either.

[Anijen]

Thanks for the correct info...the Smith's were not cowards as depicted. Once again, the burden this mother had to bare.

No problem, I was actually just trying to give more info, I diddnt realize I was correcting until after I posted. I edited my post to distinguish that Samuel was riding toward Carthage after hearing his brothers were in danger and while he was close someone told him they were dead. Samuel Smith was the first Latter-day Saint to arrive at the jail after the shooting.

Part of his obituary reads;

Because of Samuel, the Prophet Joseph and Hyrum had more freedom to fulfill their missions relative to the Restoration of the gospel. In that, the words of a blessing from Father Smith were fulfilled: “Thou shall hear [the Lord’s] voice [saying] Samuel, Samuel. Thou shalt be equal to thy brethren.”

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Of course it was self defense.

This manual is 12 years old and this lesson probably taught one Sunday out of the year. So yes, there is a pretty good chance many members were either absent or not paying particular attention that day. In my experience, many members are unaware of this detail, and those who aren't, usually provide a creative version similar to what LeSellers has provided for us. The Church is certainly more inclined to detail this information with seasoned members attending Institute or Sunday School. However, when it comes to introductory material, this is usually if not always glossed over. Take the recent film on Joseph Smith, for example. It goes into detail showing Joseph pushing up against the door, the unfortunate death of his brother, the screams coming from the anti-Mormons, etc.

But there was no gun in Joseph's hands at any point in the skirmish. I'm sure those involved in the production of this film, knew he had a gun, but at some point they had to talk about it and obviously decided not to include it. They did this for the same reason they showed Joseph being a wonderful husband to only one wife and for the same reason they jumped around from one Mormon persecution setting to another (i.e. Hauns Mill, the tar and feathering), with nary a mention of Danites or the incidents at Crooked Creek and the Nauvoo Expositor. Those kinds of things are conveniently ignored because there really is no way to spin these events in a way to make Joseph Smith look like an inspired Prophet of God. Some try to do so, but it usually requires more time and explication than a two hour film can provide.

And who's sock-puppet are you?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Of course it was self defense.

This manual is 12 years old and this lesson probably taught one Sunday out of the year. So yes, there is a pretty good chance many members were either absent or not paying particular attention that day.

Where do you people come from? Should we teach it every Sunday, there are many important things...this be minor. Have a good day Russ or Aaron.

[Flyonthewall]

One of the more laughable "anti" versions, is that Joseph was killed in a prison break attempt put on by his followers.

[Xander]

Xander doesn't like the fact Joseph had the gun, even though he claims the crowd was just going to kill Joseph. Now that elicited a chuckle as another bullet fires wide of the mark. Does Xander know what he is saying?

In fact, Xander does know what he is saying. However, it is perfectly clear that you do not. It would be nice if you'd cease with the straw man and just deal with what I said. So far all you've done is address your audience while trying to convince them I've said things and believe things for which I simply do not. So try again. Concentrate hard this time.

[Xander]

What is more revealing is that these anti-Mormon's disgust for Joseph Smith is that they end up defending the mob's actions. You know, raping, murdering and pillaging the Saints? It was all "unintentional". Joseph Smith "deserved" it.

If given the chance these anti-Mormons would be running around with the same cowardly mob.

This is absolutely false and despicable. I resent any insinuation that I am an anti-Mormon trying to defend the actions of heinous murdering. Is this really all you are left with? No one has addressed my numerous CFR on LeSellers who made more than a few untenable claims. I'm not defending the actions of murderers. But that doesn't mean I have to defend the actions of those trying to recreate history. The fact that Joseph Smith was murdered at the hands of his enemies is grotesque enough. But turning him into a savior of sorts does no credit to the apologetic position, because the available data simply do not support these claims. If Mormons wonder why some Christians accuse them of worshiping Joseph, or at the very least, consider him equal to Christ, then look no further than this thread along with that film depicting his life.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In fact, Xander does know what he is saying. However, it is perfectly clear that you do not. It would be nice if you'd cease with the straw man and just deal with what I said.

OK...

Edited June 22, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is absolutely false and despicable. I resent any insinuation that I am an anti-Mormon trying to defend the actions of heinous murdering. Is this really all you are left with? No one has addressed my numerous CFR on LeSellers who made more than a few untenable claims. I'm not defending the actions of murderers. But that doesn't mean I have to defend the actions of those trying to recreate history. The fact that Joseph Smith was murdered at the hands of his enemies is grotesque enough. But turning him into a savior of sorts does no credit to the apologetic position, because the available data simply do not support these claims. If Mormons wonder why some Christians accuse them of worshiping Joseph, or at the very least, consider him equal to Christ, then look no further than this thread along with that film depicting his life.

Who said anything about a "savoir of sorts"? No one considers JS equal to Christ or even portrayed him as such. Nice straw man.

Try to pay attention.

What happens in threads like this is some tough guy comes along and tries to claim that because JS had a gun he is either not a martyr or that the church was some how lying because they did not teach about the gun JS had ever other Sunday. Which camp do you belong to?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

nm

Edited June 22, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[LeSellers]

No one has addressed my numerous CFR on LeSellers who made more than a few untenable claims.

My name is Lehi, after my grandfather. It's what my mother-in-law calls me, as did (gratefully) former presidents Carter and Clinton. You are, as are all here, invited to call me by my name.

Lehi made no "untenable claims". I said, erroneously, that each of the Smith brothers was shot four times after being killed. In fact, I must admit, that each was shot only twice more. But it was clear that the Carthage Yellows wanted to mutilate the bodies. As PaPa implied, the Saints were convinced of it, so much so that they buried the bodies in hidden, unmarked graves and even moved them to prevent that happening.

Everything else is fact as far as I have been able to determine.

Lehi

Edited June 22, 2011 by LeSellers

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Who said anything about a "savoir of sorts"? No one considers JS equal to Christ or even portrayed him as such. Nice straw man.

I certainly do not, nor does anyone I know (all 6 of them).

[ELF1024]

No one has addressed my numerous CFR on LeSellers who made more than a few untenable claims.

As a new member of the forum, and appearing to be a troll, it's cute that you think that you're important enough to pay attention to.

Perhaps if your tone was more respectful, someone might care what you think.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In fact, he killed two people. He didn't murder anyone.

This is false. Xander your colors are showing.

As I understood it, the 3 men who were actually hit by a shot from Joseph's pistol were not killed instantly, but were later arrested and put on trial.

Of the 9 men arrested for Josephs murder, 3 were arrested because of wounds received at the jail, and according to testimony, none of them died.

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/jsmartyr.pdf

JS fired 3 shots and hit 3 men all of which appeared at the trial for JS murder. None were killed by JS.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is absolutely false and despicable. I resent any insinuation that I am an anti-Mormon .........

We shall see.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Jaybear]

As a new member of the forum, and appearing to be a troll, it's cute that you think that you're important enough to pay attention to.

Perhaps if your tone was more respectful, someone might care what you think.

Respectful?

You call him a troll, and tell him no one cares what he thinks. He is accused of being an "anti-mormon".

If want new posters to be respectful, perhaps you should lead by example.

[ELF1024]

Respectful?

You call him a troll, and tell him no one cares what he thinks. He is accused of being an "anti-mormon".

If want new posters to be respectful, perhaps you should lead by example.

"Appear to be a troll" is not the same as saying he IS a troll. I didn't say he was an Anti-Mormon.

Reading comprehension... try it.