Joseph And His Gun…

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I shoulda known better than to even bring that up here, or anywhere else on the Net. Candor is never appreciated by the small-minded bigots of our species, but will ever be taken by their ilk and used to flail the author with. To what end or for what purpose, only the thieves can say. If making me out to be a lying, conniving apostate makes your faith stronger, then I guess that's one positive outcome of my being an omadhaun...

Double post.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

How does The trouble with the pistol is that the Church NEVER acknowledges its existence makes "on film" such a little oversight?

I read or wrote to fast...no wait, I was spot on! Good point Jeff.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Future apostle Dallin Oaks wrote the definitive book on the trial of the murderers of Joseph and Hyrum. It includes an extensive account of the events in the jail Three men were slightly wounded by Joseph and his pistol, but they were never brought to trial. If the church is so intent on covering up the pistol event, why would Oaks be rewarded with such an honored position?

Bernard

No way!

[changed]

a nice watch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWS5yd8xbJw&amp

[Nofear]

Taylor had a good eye to see round the door casing... don't ya think?

Undoubtedly he surmised that the three injuries came from the shots Joseph delivered.

PS: Incidentally, that is how all of us treat memory - we adjust our memories to past events based on subsequent sources - photos, stories, re-tellings, etc. (the grand delusion: head full of half-truths)

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

a nice watch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWS5yd8xbJw&amp

Thank you for this.

[bookofmormontruth]

One of my favorite accounts.

[changed]

One of my favorite accounts.

Thanks!

it is a more tragic death for someone to die in their sins than for the righteous to die...

(Book of Mormon | Alma 20:17)

17 But Ammon stood forth and said unto him: Behold, thou shalt not slay thy son; nevertheless, it were better that he should fall than thee, for behold, he has repented of his sins; but if thou shouldst fall at this time, in thine anger, thy soul could not be saved.

Joseph killed those who were trying to kill his brother/friends... would it have been better for those outside the door to have lived and had another chance at repentance? a hard call to make... Joseph was not afraid, not cowering in the corner - of that we can be sure... there are scriptural accounts of those who bury their weapons of war, and other accounts of those who make and use weapons of war, only God knows which is appropriate...

Edited June 21, 2011 by changed

[KevinG]

Joseph got what he deserved - a seat at the right hand of God.

[LeSellers]

Joseph killed those who were trying to kill his brother...

Joseph didn't kill anyone.

Those he shot at had already killed his brother, and were going to (if they could) desecrate his body, too.

Lehi

Edited June 22, 2011 by LeSellers

[mfbukowski]

Writing in a hurry never works. I meant in Church-made films dramatizing the Carthage jail murders; the pistol is never there. You might have gathered from the context of my comment that I was talking about that and not written accounts....

Oh yeah, clearly they are hiding it, but only in the movies. Huge conspiracy.

I don't see a lot of guns in Disney movies either. Little kids and all you know.

[mfbukowski]

I shoulda known better than to even bring that up here, or anywhere else on the Net. Candor is never appreciated by the small-minded bigots of our species, but will ever be taken by their ilk and used to flail the author with. To what end or for what purpose, only the thieves can say. If making me out to be a lying, conniving apostate makes your faith stronger, then I guess that's one positive outcome of my being an omadhaun...

.... with delusions of grandeur.

Nobody really cares - apostates are a dime a dozen around here. it just speaks to your credibility big time.

Edited June 21, 2011 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

One reason the church does this is for missionary work. Don't get me wrong they have no intention to hide it and they do not. For example while I was participating in the Nauvoo pageant Elder Jensen spoke and in his talk he told us how The church works in Missouri and Illinois through the pioneer clubs and pageants etc. Many of the people who live in these areas (Nauvoo, Farwest other areas) are descendants of those who might have participated in violence against the Saints. Many of these local people come to the pageant each year. When the Nauvoo pageant was written and given to President Hinckley to make final changes, he asked that they do not detail his death at Carthage because they wanted the whole pageant an uplifting experience without the sad reminder of such a violent death that many of the local people could be related to. So the Death scene has Joseph and Hyrum walking off the stage into the audience on their way to Carthage and the spotlight goes off, that's about it. We know it was more violent than that and the church does not hide the fact and we believe that both Hyrum and Joseph were martyred. But if it does not give the specific details it doesn't mean they are hiding it. I think in many situations they want to remain on topic that is probably the restoration of Christs church and not veer toward his Joseph and Hyrums violent death.

Many of my wife's relatives stayed in Nauvoo and are still there as members of the RLDS and C of C, and are fine people.

This is exactly right. There is no sense in causing division over something that happened 150 years ago- to people none of us have ever known!

I suppose we could revive the Irish Republican Army if we wanted to do that.

[cdowis]

Writing in a hurry never works. I meant in Church-made films dramatizing the Carthage jail murders; the pistol is never there.

It is called artistic license to match the purpose of the movie. I guess you don't get a chance to watch many movies-- you are a History Channel kind of guy.

Edited June 21, 2011 by cdowis

[Mudcat]

Undoubtedly he surmised that the three injuries came from the shots Joseph delivered.

Blackstrap offered a similar response, as well.

In the middle of something like that.. well there are lots of permutations that could have occurred. JS missing on all shots and all injuries occurring from the opposition being episodes of "friendly fire".

But I agree that Taylor most likely associated the facts after the fact with his own recollections of events.

[Mudcat]

Those he shot at had already killed his brother, and were going to (if they could) have dessecrate his body, too.

Bold mine.

Why the assumption here? Isn't your assumption that they were going to desecrate a bit speculative?

[LeSellers]

Joseph didn't kill anyone.

Those he shot at had already killed his brother, and were going to (if they could) desecrate his body, too.

Bold mine.

Why the assumption here? Isn't your assumption that they were going to desecrate a bit speculative?

Only if you ignore the fact that, after having killed him, they pumped four more bullets into his lifeless body. That, after killing Joseph himself, they shot him four times more, and someone tried to cut off his head.

No, I do not believe that there is the slightest speculation that they would have, absent the "Rascal Beater" the pepperbox pistol, and the innate cowardice of the Carthage Yellows (coupled with the cry, "The Mormons [sic] are coming!"), that Hyrum's body wohld have been mutilated.

Lehi

Edited June 22, 2011 by LeSellers

[Mudcat]

Oh yeah, clearly they are hiding it, but only in the movies. Huge conspiracy.

Bukowski, your a bishop. Do you think most of your adult congregation is aware of JS's firearm usage.

Personally, I know five believing LDS who were unaware of it till I brought it up in discussion one day. At the time they didn't believe me.

I am doubtful a poll of the local ward will reveal startlingly different statistics.

I don't see a lot of guns in Disney movies either. Little kids and all you know.

I think that is a false dichotomy. Disney makes no truth claims.

I didn't know that the CoJCoLDS only made "G" rated truth claims in their vids.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Only if you ignore the fact that, after having killed him, they pumped four more bullets into his lifeless body. That, after killing Joseph himself, they shot him four times more, and someone tried to cut off his head.

I didn't know that was the case. It's news to me.

Would you cite a source for the information?

[bookofmormontruth]

Bukowski, your a bishop. Do you think most of your adult congregation is aware of JS's firearm usage.

Personally, I know five believing LDS who were unaware of it till I brought it up in discussion one day. At the time they didn't believe me.

I am doubtful a poll of the local ward will reveal startlingly different statistics.

I think that is a false dichotomy. Disney makes no truth claims.

I didn't know that the CoJCoLDS only made "G" rated truth claims in their vids.

And a lot of members haven't read past 2 Nephi so what does it matter if they know that Joseph Smith had a gun? In the grand scheme of things, there are more important things to know like reading past 2 Nephi for an example.

Of course we make family friendly videos and when doesn't Disney movies make truth claims? Every movie does.

This one should be right up your alley.

"The past can hurt. You can either run from it or learn from it". The Lion King

And who can forget this truth claim.

"All it takes is Faith and Trust". Peter Pan

[mfbukowski]

Bukowski, your a bishop. Do you think most of your adult congregation is aware of JS's firearm usage.

Personally, I know five believing LDS who were unaware of it till I brought it up in discussion one day. At the time they didn't believe me.

I am doubtful a poll of the local ward will reveal startlingly different statistics.

I think that is a false dichotomy. Disney makes no truth claims.

I didn't know that the CoJCoLDS only made "G" rated truth claims in their vids.

Well I can tell you we don't make any R rated ones!

And I hope they would all know Joseph had a gun and used it in self defense- if not, I would have to get after the Sunday School teacher for not teaching what was in the manual.

This is from the official Manual on Church History- this is what is taught in Sunday School. Perhaps your relatives were not there that day.

I have underlined the relevant sections.

http://lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-32-to-seal-the-testimony?lang=eng

Ask the assigned class member to report on the first five paragraphs of the section “The Martyrdom” from Our Heritage,pages 62–63. Also read D&C 135:4–5 with class members. Explain that D&C 135 was written by Elder John Taylor, who was wounded during the attack on the Prophet Joseph.

• • Why do you think the Prophet Joseph Smith could be as “calm as a summer’s morning” when he knew he might be martyred at Carthage? What comfort do you think Joseph and Hyrum would have received from Ether 12:36–38?

Read D&C 135:1–2 with class members. Also read the following account of the martyrdom by Elder Willard Richards, or ask a class member to read it. Explain that Elder Richards was a friend of the Prophet and a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. He was in Carthage Jail when the Prophet was martyred. His account begins as the mob arrived at the jail just after 5:00 p.m. on the afternoon of 27 June 1844:

“A shower of musket balls were thrown up the stairway against the door of the prison in the second story, followed by many rapid footsteps. …

“… A ball was sent through the door, which passed between us, and showed that our enemies were desperadoes. …

“… Joseph Smith, Mr. Taylor and myself sprang back to the front part of the room, and … Hyrum Smith retreated two-thirds across the chamber directly in front of and facing the door.

“A ball was sent through the door which hit Hyrum on the side of his nose, when he fell backwards, extended at length, without moving his feet.

“From the holes in his [clothing], it appears evident that a ball must have been thrown from without, through the window, which entered his back on the right side, and passing through, lodged against his watch. … At the same instant the ball from the door entered his nose.

“As he struck the floor he exclaimed emphatically, ‘I am a dead man.’ Joseph looked towards him and responded, ‘Oh, dear brother Hyrum!’ and opening the door two or three inches with his left hand, discharged one barrel of a six shooter (pistol) at random in the entry. … A ball [from the musket of one of the mob] grazed Hyrum’s breast, and entering his throat passed into his head, while other muskets were aimed at him and some balls hit him.

“Joseph continued snapping his revolver round the casing of the door into the space as before … , while Mr. Taylor with a walking stick stood by his side and knocked down the bayonets and muskets which were constantly discharging through the doorway. …

“When the revolver failed, we had no more firearms, and expected an immediate rush of the mob, and the doorway full of muskets, half way in the room, and no hope but instant death from within.

“Mr. Taylor rushed into the window, which is some fifteen or twenty feet from the ground. When his body was nearly on a balance, a ball from the door within entered his leg, and a ball from without struck his watch … in his vest pocket near the left breast, … the force of which ball threw him back on the floor, and he rolled under the bed which stood by his side. …

“Joseph attempted, as the last resort, to leap [from] the same window from whence Mr. Taylor fell, when two balls pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without, and he fell outward, exclaiming, ‘Oh Lord, my God!’ … He fell on his left side a dead man” (History of the Church, 6:619–20).

I would say probably everyone I know knows that. My kids were with me when we visited Carthage jail- my wife has been there multiple times- I have never seen it as an issue for any member to be perfectly honest.

We are not pacifists- many members have guns and would use them in self defense. I personally would as well.

Edited June 22, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Xander]

LeSellers,

Joseph didn't use the pepperbox pistol for "self defense"—he used it to defend others* from being killed and his brother's body from being mutilated.

What evidence do you have for this claim?

Hyrum was dead. It was only then that he fired three of the six rounds from the toy gun Brother Wheelock had smuggled in.

Wheelock had the pistol on him and asked the group who wanted it. Joseph Smith immediately said "give it to me." Toy guns don't kill people unless you beat them to death with them.

He jumped from the window (or tried to) to draw away the fire of the Carthage Yellows disguised as a mob. These brave men, servants of the Governor of Illinois, ran, tails between their legs, at the mere notion that "the 'Mormons' [were] coming!"

What evidence do you have for this claim?

Had he not fired, it is absolutely certain that the mob would have broken into the upper room of the jail and killed all four of its occupants (whereas John Taylor and Willard Richards survived: the former having nearly died, but the latter not even wounded).

What evidence do you have for this claim?

Your theory makes little sense in light of what we know. The mob eventually broke in, forcing Richards up against the wall. There is no indication that they were trying to killing anyone except Joseph Smith. It would have taken all of two seconds to finish off Taylor and Richards had this ever been there intention. But they did not. Even the death of Hyrum was probably unintentional. It happened when a bullet was shot through the panel of the door for the purpose of unlocking it.

Had he not leapt from that window, the same fate would probably have come to pass. Had someone (unknown but to God) not yelled out the dire threat, they would still have been slaughtered.

Do you have any evidence for this? Joseph Smith was heard to have cried out the first phrase of the Masonic distress call, which would have obligated any Masons in the vicinity to provide protection. In fact, a few weeks later, the Times and Seasons published on the murder at Carthage, criticizing all Masons who stood by as the "signs of distress" were given with "raised hands." John D. Lee also argued that this is what he was doing. So, one could just as easily argue that he took his chances outside where there was sure to be at least a few armed Masons. He certainly wasn't going to survive had he stayed in the room. The others did, however, and contrary to your predictions of what would, could or should have happened, they were left alone. No one sought their lives, let alone the mutilation of their bodies.

No. Joseph's use of that joke of a pistol

That "joke" of a pistol killed two men. There was no reason to expect a prisoner to be armed with a pistol. Most of those men approached the jail thinking Joseph Smith was defenseless, so there is reasonable basis to assume that perhaps Smith thought that firing a gun would dissuade them from risking their own lives.

along with the other events noted saved two lives

Saved two lives? Those lives were not threatened once the mob became aware of Joseph's death. If he really wanted to ensure their safety, it seems to me that he would have told them to leave the jail before trouble arrived. And after realizing a mob had approached the jail, it seems to me that he would have made sure no one was standing by the window. Whomever shot at Hyrum from outside probably believed he was shooting at Joseph.

and, since Joseph had told all that he would not return from Carthage that time, he knew that three (or even six) rounds would do nothing for him. It was for the others he fired and jumped.

Wow, this is a very creative retelling of the event. Were you by chance, involved in the editing of the Church film, Joseph Smith: The Prophet of the Restoration? So not only was Joseph a martyr, according to you he was a savior of two lives? I guess that would be cool, if it were true.

And I agree with "Rivers": to hear others call the martyrdom a "gun fight" is laughable beyond belief.

But that is precisely what it was. This doesn't mean he wasn't murdered or martyred, as you prefer. You're protesting against an accurate description of what took place.

Joseph didn't kill anyone.

In fact, he killed two people. He didn't murder anyone.

Those he shot at had already killed his brother, and were going to (if they could) desecrate his body, too.

There is no reason to believe they wanted to desecrate his brother's body, or else they would have. And what evidence do you have that the two men Joseph killed, are precisely the two men who killed Hyrum? In fact, only one person killed Hyrum; whoever shot through the panel of the door, sending a bullet through Hyrum's face.

Why don't we call it a "club fight"? After all, Willard Richards used the "Rascal Beater" to knock away the fiery muzzles of the Carthage Yellows' guns when they were jammed through the door way.

Seriously?

[Xander]

And I hope they would all know Joseph had a gun and used it in self defense- if not, I would have to get after the Sunday School teacher for not teaching what was in the manual.

This is from the official Manual on Church History- this is what is taught in Sunday School. Perhaps your relatives were not there that day.

Of course it was self defense.

This manual is 12 years old and this lesson probably taught one Sunday out of the year. So yes, there is a pretty good chance many members were either absent or not paying particular attention that day. In my experience, many members are unaware of this detail, and those who aren't, usually provide a creative version similar to what LeSellers has provided for us. The Church is certainly more inclined to detail this information with seasoned members attending Institute or Sunday School. However, when it comes to introductory material, this is usually if not always glossed over. Take the recent film on Joseph Smith, for example. It goes into detail showing Joseph pushing up against the door, the unfortunate death of his brother, the screams coming from the anti-Mormons, etc.

But there was no gun in Joseph's hands at any point in the skirmish. I'm sure those involved in the production of this film, knew he had a gun, but at some point they had to talk about it and obviously decided not to include it. They did this for the same reason they showed Joseph being a wonderful husband to only one wife and for the same reason they jumped around from one Mormon persecution setting to another (i.e. Hauns Mill, the tar and feathering), with nary a mention of Danites or the incidents at Crooked Creek and the Nauvoo Expositor. Those kinds of things are conveniently ignored because there really is no way to spin these events in a way to make Joseph Smith look like an inspired Prophet of God. Some try to do so, but it usually requires more time and explication than a two hour film can provide.

[Calm]

This manual is 12 years old and this lesson probably taught one Sunday out of the year.

The same manual has been used every four years since it was first used (every rotation for Church History/Doctrine and Covenants.

The Church is certainly more inclined to detail this information with seasoned members attending Institute or Sunday School.

It's also in the Seminary and Primary manuals.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Joseph didn't kill anyone.

Those he shot at had already killed his brother, and were going to (if they could) desecrate his body, too.

Lehi

I wonder how many know that the bodies were buried in the basement of his house because of such threats. Years later they were moved to the graves beside the house.