Who Says The Church Doesn'T Love All Of The Attention From The Bom Musical?

[bluebell]

Morningstar…Did I say something that offended you? I merely pointed out that the church is obviously enjoying all the publicity produced from the popularity of the Book of Mormon musical and is taking advantage of it by spending $1,000,000 in an advertising campaign.

To answer a few other questions directed at me:

01. Bluebell, No it does not offend me for the church to spend their money…they can do whatever they like with it…after all it is theirs, freely donated from its membership.

02. Mola Ram, CFR on the tithing use claim?…Mola Ram, can you give me another source of income that the church has that isn’t or didn’t originally come from tithing? Which is why I feel the whole claim that the down town mall is being built with non tithing dollars is somewhat disingenuous.

03. Cinepro…you left out one other statistic…since 1985 the church has donated 1.3 billion in worldwide humanitarian aid. That’s $5.08 per member per year. Impressive. I'm very comforted to know that of the tens of thousands in tithing I donated each year...that $5.08 of it went to humanitarian aid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history#LDS_Church_membership_numbers http://lds.org/church/statistics?lang=eng&query=humanitarian+aid

Morningstar, How ironic that you quote Jesus on your post...

“A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another”. ~ John 13:34

Correct me if I'm mistaken...but I'm not feeling your love...

I didn't ask if it offended you, i asked if it bothered you. The tone of your post came off as accusatory to me, but i apologize if i read you wrong.

And with the humanitarian aide-Critics of the church LOVE to point out that only a fraction of the total church membership is active, but here is one instance where it ruins the figures if you don't take that into consideration.

If you've done the math as if the entire membership was paying tithing, then your math will be incorrect since most of the members don't pay any tithing at all each year.

It's also of note that people often donate into the humanitarian aid fund separately from paying their tithing.

[Questing Beast]

... it's part of the four fold mission of the church, ...

Really? What is the fourth "mission of the church"? I know of, redeem the dead, proclaim the gospel, and perfect the Saints....

[Garden Girl]

It's also of note that people often donate into the humanitarian aid fund separately from paying their tithing.

I donate separately into the humanitarian aid, the perpetual education, and the missionary fund... imagine if 1 Million members donated $20 a month separately into the humanitarian fund or one of the others. There's even a separate category "Book of Mormon" which could legitimately be used for the publicity IMO.

My tithing funds are separate.

GG

[Garden Girl]

Really? What is the fourth "mission of the church"? I know of, redeem the dead, proclaim the gospel, and perfect the Saints....

The fourth "mission" was added not too long ago...

GG

[Libs]

-to care for the poor and needy

(I googled )

[Mark Beesley]

Mola Ram, CFR on the tithing use claim?…Mola Ram, can you give me another source of income that the church has that isn’t or didn’t originally come from tithing? Which is why I feel the whole claim that the down town mall is being built with non tithing dollars is somewhat disingenuous.

The Church has an entire "for profit" side to it. It owns businesses that collect and pay taxes. It accepts donations to those business, and some of its ownership in those businesses is a result of a gift from someone. In other words, the Church has lots of sources of income other than the charitable receipts it gathers from members. Did you want a list of "for profit" enterprises in which the Church is involved? How about I name just three:

KSL

Deseret Book

Deseret News

All of these businesses are typical private sector enterprises that collect local sales taxes, pay state taxes, obtain business licenses, hire and fire employees, pay social security and disability taxes, etc., etc. etc.

All that being said, I hope the source of funds for the Times Square/New York campaign is Tithing and Missionary funds, and NOT funds from the profit side of the Church.

[Nemesis]

Everyone let's settle down please.

Nemesis

[Pahoran]

Morningstar…Did I say something that offended you? I merely pointed out that the church is obviously enjoying all the publicity produced from the popularity of the Book of Mormon musical and is taking advantage of it by spending $1,000,000 in an advertising campaign.

"Pointed out" implies a non-controversial fact, which your opinion is not. An alternative conclusion -- at least as "obvious" as your own -- is that the Church is not enjoying the kind of coverage it's getting in connection with that bit of trash, and is moving to counter it.

Can you think of any reason why your opinion is more "obvious" than mine?

Correct me if I'm mistaken...but I'm not feeling your love...

And you suppose the feeling isn't mutual?

Regards,

Pahoran

[cinepro]

Did you want a list of "for profit" enterprises in which the Church is involved? How about I name just three:

KSL

Deseret Book

Deseret News

CFR that Deseret News makes a profit.

[why me]

If the postmos have billboards I am all in favor of the lds church having billboards. No one to my knowledge tells the postmo organization to spend that money on the poor in Logan. We live in an age of media. It is good to fight back.

[Avatar4321]

I couldn't be more pleased that the Church is trying to make good use of the publicity and conversations generated by The Book of Mormon:

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/19393/Anti-Mormon-mockery-can-actually-lead-to-teaching-moments

I'll be happy, incidentally, to start a sixth thread about this musical if somebody else will start the fourth and fifth. Anybody up for a seventh?

Excellent article Dr. P. I completely agree.

I've often said that the best thing we can do with our protestors is not to get angry or upset but to show greater love. To those who might come in contact with them we should share the Gospel boldly and we should even consider providing service for the protestors. Let's make them cookies or give them refreshment. Even if they aren't touched by the charity towards them, they may still be shocked. And we wills till be doing good. Wouldn't that be much better than letting them upset us? Why give them that power?

[Okrahomer]

CFR that Deseret News makes a profit.

Will this suffice as a CFR? My link

From the article:

Deseret Media Company, which owns the Deseret News, KSL TV, and KSL NewsRadio (and is owned by BYU’s sponsor, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), launched its own free classified site on ksl.com. The researchers hail that and the company’s other moves to change its business model, pointing out that last year its print and online audience grew at the industry’s second-fastest rate and that online “profits exceed those of the traditional businesses, including the newspaper.”

[Daniel Peterson]

I've often said that the best thing we can do with our protestors is not to get angry or upset but to show greater love. To those who might come in contact with them we should share the Gospel boldly and we should even consider providing service for the protestors. Let's make them cookies or give them refreshment. Even if they aren't touched by the charity towards them, they may still be shocked. And we wills till be doing good. Wouldn't that be much better than letting them upset us? Why give them that power?

Superb ideas.

[Stargazer]

There is no such thing as bad publicity. Especially where the truth is concerned.

I believe Joseph Smith once said that if you leave us alone we will convert the whole world, and if you don't, we will do it faster.

That was Brother Brigham.

[Craig Paxton]

I didn't ask if it offended you, i asked if it bothered you. The tone of your post came off as accusatory to me, but i apologize if i read you wrong.

And with the humanitarian aide-Critics of the church LOVE to point out that only a fraction of the total church membership is active, but here is one instance where it ruins the figures if you don't take that into consideration.

If you've done the math as if the entire membership was paying tithing, then your math will be incorrect since most of the members don't pay any tithing at all each year.

It's also of note that people often donate into the humanitarian aid fund separately from paying their tithing.

It's sometimes hard to "get" the intended tone of a post...I accept your apology and extend mine as well...

[Craig Paxton]

The Church has an entire "for profit" side to it. It owns businesses that collect and pay taxes. It accepts donations to those business, and some of its ownership in those businesses is a result of a gift from someone. In other words, the Church has lots of sources of income other than the charitable receipts it gathers from members. Did you want a list of "for profit" enterprises in which the Church is involved? How about I name just three:

KSL

Deseret Book

Deseret News

All of these businesses are typical private sector enterprises that collect local sales taxes, pay state taxes, obtain business licenses, hire and fire employees, pay social security and disability taxes, etc., etc. etc.

All that being said, I hope the source of funds for the Times Square/New York campaign is Tithing and Missionary funds, and NOT funds from the profit side of the Church.

While I am aware that the church has an entire for profit side ... I contend that the seed money for each and everyone of these for profit companies can trace their beginnings to tithing funds donated by faithful members...and I'm totaly ok with that...but lets be honest about it and not claim otherwise.

But alais...until (not gonna happen)the church opens its books up for public perview...we'll never really know. So its speculation on both our parts...(thats a consession)

[LeSellers]

While I am aware that the church has an entire for profit side ... I contend that the seed money for each and everyone of these for profit companies can trace their beginnings to tithing funds donated by faithful members...and I'm totaly ok with that...but lets be honest about it and not claim otherwise.

That's not true at all.

In 1847, when Brother Brigham and the Pioneer Company (all 147 of them) came to the valleys of the mountains, they claimed "lots" of the land for themselves and the Church, You will recall that one of the first things Brother Brigham did was site the Temple lot: "Here we will build a Temple to our God." that was not the only piece established for the Church. Later, some of this land, now far more valuable, was sold and that was the genesis of some of the wealth the Church used to build enterprises needed for the employment of the poor immigrating Saints.

You cannot pay monetary debts with non-monetary assets. You will also recall that in the late XIX, the Church was in considerable debt because the Saints were not paying their tithing. It took more than a while for the lesson to get learned, but the Church had funds from other donations (just not nearly enough). This makes it obvious that tithing was not the source of funding for the Church in the early days (although it has always been a law: some Saints were more observing and observant than others). So, while the Church was cash poor, she was land (and other resources) rich. Over time, some of those resources have been converted to cash, so projects like the mall could be undertaken without ever touching tithing funds.

Further, and completely off topic, so what? Even if the worst accusations of the nit-picking critics were true, so what?

Temple Square is the biggest tourist attraction in Utah. It outdraws the ski slopes, Zion's Canyon National Park, and the rest. Creating a more pleasant place for people of all stripes to visit when they visit Utah makes it easier for the Church to accomplish its mission of "proclaiming the Gospel". That mission is just as important (more in my view) than "taking care of the poor and the needy", for the poor ye have with you always. There is no end to the needs of the poor, and the needy are like unto them. The Mall makes downtown Salt Lake City less inner-city-like, and contributes to a direct charge given to us by God: to spread His Gospel.

Lehi

[Craig Paxton]

That's not true at all.

In 1847, when Brother Brigham and the Pioneer Company (all 147 of them) came to the valleys of the mountains, they claimed "lots" of the land for themselves and the Church, You will recall that one of the first things Brother Brigham did was site the Temple lot: "Here we will build a Temple to our God." that was not the only piece established for the Church. Later, some of this land, now far more valuable, was sold and that was the genesis of some of the wealth the Church used to build enterprises needed for the employment of the poor immigrating Saints.

You cannot pay monetary debts with non-monetary assets. You will also recall that in the late XIX, the Church was in considerable debt because the Saints were not paying their tithing. It took more than a while for the lesson to get learned, but the Church had funds from other donations (just not nearly enough). This makes it obvious that tithing was not the source of funding for the Church in the early days (although it has always been a law: some Saints were more observing and observant than others). So, while the Church was cash poor, she was land (and other resources) rich. Over time, some of those resources have been converted to cash, so projects like the mall could be undertaken without ever touching tithing funds.

Further, and completely off topic, so what? Even if the worst accusations of the nit-picking critics were true, so what?

Temple Square is the biggest tourist attraction in Utah. It outdraws the ski slopes, Zion's Canyon National Park, and the rest. Creating a more pleasant place for people of all stripes to visit when they visit Utah makes it easier for the Church to accomplish its mission of "proclaiming the Gospel". That mission is just as important (more in my view) than (taking care of the poor and the needy", for the poor ye have with you always. There is n o end to the needs of the poor, and the needy are like unto them. The Mall makes downtown Salt Lake City less inner-city-like, and contributes to a direct charge given to us by God: to spread His Gospel.

Lehi

I completely agree..."So What" as I've stated earlier...it's their money to do what they want to...but wouldn't it be nice IF there was some accountability through open books...as with other charitable/religious/tax deductible institutions...otherwise its left for us to speculate...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I completely agree..."So What" as I've stated earlier...it's their money to do what they want to...but wouldn't it be nice IF there was some accountability through open books...as with other charitable/religious/tax deductible institutions...otherwise its left for us to speculate...

Accountability does not equal open books. Why do you think it does?

[LeSellers]

wouldn't it be nice IF there was some accountability through open books...as with other charitable/religious/tax deductible institutions...otherwise its left for us to speculate...

No!!!!!, it would not "be nice". You'd speculate anyway, just about different things.

There will always be critics, no matter what we do. Were we to open the books, as you pretend to desire, the critics would not shut up (as they imply they would), they'd merely change the focus of their attacks. There is no satisfying Satan. He'll continually attack, irrespective of what we do.

Lehi

[Craig Paxton]

No!!!!!, it would not "be nice". You'd just speculate anyway, just about different things.

There will always be critics, no matter what we do. Were we to open the books, as you pretend to desire, the critics would not shut up (as they imply they would), they'd merely change the focus of their attacks. There is no satsifying Satan. He'll continually attack, irrespective of what we do.

Lehi

Wow Didn't mean to touch a nerve. OH and BTW...if they disclosed everything...I could not speculate...we'd know. But let's clarify some other assumptions on your part.

01. Although I no longer have a testimony to the truth claims of Mormonism and even though I understand how nice it is to lump me into some tidy box and label me as a “critic” all I’ve really done in this post…is suggest how nice it would be for a more open accounting of church finances would be…something many religious/charitable/tax deductible institutions do to dispel the kinds of questions being discussed here (not what I intended when I started this thread)

02. Ouch! To equate my merely suggesting a more open accounting of church finances to somehow being in hock with Satan…is a bit extreme don’t you think? In fact isn’t it Satan that hides things in the dark and doesn’t want all of his activities and purposes fully disclosed? And NO I am NOT comparing the church to Satan.

I understand that the church has its reasons for its current closed book policy...but seriously what do they really have to hide? Why is this question even an issue? If they have nothing to hide...then they should throw open the books, its that simple. I understand the penchant of members not to question anything done by church authorities...but wouldn't it be a breath of fresh air if you as a member knew the answers to the where, what and how of your donations...instead of just a general idea of how they are used.

I appreciate that the church at least disclosed that it has donated 1.3 billion in humanitarian aid since 1985. I applaude that disclosure albeit for public relations...but at least they disclosed it. At least we know where $52,000,000 goes each year. Wouldn't it be nice if they would remove the fog to the rest of their finances?

[Nemesis]

Everyone let's settle down please.

Nemesis

Second Reminder.

Nemesis

[Craig Paxton]

Second Reminder.

Nemesis

Message received....

[LeSellers]

Didn't mean to touch a nerve. OH and BTW...if they disclosed everything...I could not speculate...we'd know.

"Speculation" is not the problem. It's the implicit charge that money is being used wrongly, even to enrich the Brethren.

And, I reiterate, it would not end those attacks. They'd merely take another form.

For instance, I can easily see critics saying that any expense the Church incurs in maintain Temples is wasted, and that the Church should spend all that money on the poor. Oh, wait! We already see just that charge. The only difference is that they'd have numbers. The charge would remain just as it it.

all I’ve really done in this post…is suggest how nice it would be for a more open accounting of church finances would be…

And I, obviously, disagree. It would not be nice, it would not be a breath of fresh air. It would only change the content of the attack, not the attack itself.

To equate my merely suggesting a more open accounting of church finances to somehow being in hock with Satan…is a bit extreme don’t you think?

Since I did not do that, I cannot agree with your erroneous conclusion.

Please notice that I carefully distinguished (for precisely this reason) "you" from "the critics" (and "they"), who are minions of Satan, as far as I am concerned, at least. You may see yourself as falling into the latter category, but I neither implied nor intended it.

Please re-read my message.

Lehi

[cinepro]

"Speculation" is not the problem. It's the implicit charge that money is being used wronlgy, even to enrich the Brethren.

And, I reiterate, it would not end those attacks. They'd merely take another form.

For instance, I can easily see critics saying that any expense the Church incurs in maintain Temples is wasted, and that the Church should spend all that money on the poor. Oh, wait! We already see just that charge. The only difference is that they'd have numbers. The charge would remain just as it it.

Actually, I believe the books should be made public (as they were until the mid 20th century) because if the leaders are inspired in their stewardship of tithing funds, then the books would actually be a form of revelation. And I think it would be great for that revelation, which effects all Church members to some degree, to be made public.