Lost 116 Pages poll

[LDS Truthseeker]

I'm wondering what most people think actually happened to the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon.

[ebeddoulos]

Maybe you should provide a third choice? Like "other" or perhaps "A proto-UMW absconded with them". Obviously if it is the latter, it was before the group had fully coalesced into the benevolent organization it now is.

[Palerider]

Thought I'd read that Martin's wife was the last one known to have them in her possesion. Intimated that she may have burned them. Always thought it would be interesting if they turned up someday and a comparison could be done.

[blackstrap]

I know I was disappointed when Geraldo didn't find them in Al's safe .

[USU78]

I know I was disappointed when Geraldo didn't find them in Al's safe .

That's just silly.

Everybody knows they were enrolled and engrossed into the President's Book of Secrets.

[LDS Truthseeker]

Thought I'd read that Martin's wife was the last one known to have them in her possesion. Intimated that she may have burned them. Always thought it would be interesting if they turned up someday and a comparison could be done.

That would be a priceless document. If Mark Hofman wasn't caught when was, he probably would have forged one.

[sunstoned]

I

[Stargazer]

What I think happened is that they were taken to "see what would happen" in order to prove Joseph a fraud, but when he failed to re-translate, the manuscript pages were either destroyed or someone laid them aside in some leather pouch or other container, and they await future discovery as a surprise in someone's attic.

[kolipoki09]

Ask Don Bradley.

[Calm]

Obviously if it is the latter, it was before the group had fully coalesced into the benevolent organization it now is.

Good save.

[mapman]

We don't know. I've always imagined them sitting in a cardboard box in someone's attic, but it is just as likely that they have gotten destroyed at some point.

[Bernard Gui]

I'm wondering what most people think actually happened to the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon.

They disappeared.

Bernard

[cinepro]

From what little I know of the story, it's my impression that Lucy wanted Martin to abandon the project and stop giving his money to Joseph.

That being the case, I think the most logical conclusion is that she destroyed the pages.

[BCSpace]

Aren't the two options essentially the same except that one is male and the other is female?

[Duncan]

I heard they are being released by wikileaks

[cdowis]

From what little I know of the story, it's my impression that Lucy wanted Martin to abandon the project and stop giving his money to Joseph.

That being the case, I think the most logical conclusion is that she destroyed the pages.

How would that help? She needed to discredit JS to influence her husband, and the forgery would serve that purpose. I don't see how destroying the manuscript would do her any good.

[blackstrap]

destroying the manuscript would set the process back for a while,perhaps long enough to convince Martin to abandon his friend.

Never,ever impart logic to the actions of an angry woman.(UMW excepted of course )

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Doesn't the D&C specifically say that conspiring men had them and would try to use them to "foil" Joseph Smith? I believe they are in some old forgotten box in some old Methodist library somewhere back East.

[cinepro]

How would that help? She needed to discredit JS to influence her husband, and the forgery would serve that purpose. I don't see how destroying the manuscript would do her any good.

I'm assuming Lucy Harris's main concern was to stop Martin from giving his money to Joseph. The plan (as revealed to Joseph) wouldn't have accomplished that, because it depended on Joseph restarting the translation and publishing the book (which wasn't going to happen without Martin's money).

Keep in mind, that 116 pages into the project, you have two options if you are worried about the money:

1. Stop immediately and book your losses.

or

2. Finish the project and hope to make your money back with the book being a success and selling well.

The D&C 10 plan is unique in that it does neither of those. If carried out, it would increase the expenditures on the project while at the same time trying to reduce the possibilities of recovering the investment through book sales!

So I do not think there was ever a plot to discredit the Prophet by changing the pages. Such a plot would be a terrible, illogical and borderline comical attempt at subterfuge.

A more likely scenario would be Lucy trying to stop the project cold by destroying the pages. A lone, desperate woman who thinks they'll get discouraged and stop if their progress is destroyed (perhaps assuming that this interest is, like so many of Martin's, only temporary and easily diverted).

Imagine a desperate and temperamental Lucy Harris. She is married to Martin Harris, who is a good and hardworking husband but has a tendency to put stock in the religious claims of others when perhaps he shouldn't. Now your husband Martin is involved in another plan, this time involving the creation of a lengthy (and expensive book).

So you decide to see if this book is a good investment. You tell Martin there will be no more money spent until you can see the work-in-progress. If Joseph Smith's book turns out to be good (or even great), you could find yourself with a piece of the next big classic of American literature. Maybe this investment will work out?

Martin agrees, and brings the pages. You settle down at your desk and start reading. But it isn't great. It reads like a mishmash of biblical language and story. There are characters named "Limnob" and "Herlibub". They ride animals called "Cheribmoms" and "Hodignas". There is no discernible story thread. There are repetitive phrases like "I dreamed a dream", and almost every paragraph begins with the phrase "And behold, this is what happened next..."

This isn't what you expected, and you realize Martin has got to stop. Immediately. You have to pull the plug. What's the best way to do this? Destroy the pages. Martin mentioned there were no other copies. This will be the end of the project, since the demoralized Joseph would never want to go back and start from page 1. Martin will come to his senses and leave the scheme behind.

Compare that with Joseph Smith's version of "the plan" as found in D&C 10.

That plan involves Joseph and Martin using even more of Martin's time and money to go back and re-translate. Then it involves that re-translation being made publicly available. Then it involves the Lucy Harris gang somehow making their altered version publicly available in such a way that people compare it to the Joseph Smith publication. And somehow the alterations would be done in such a way that it doesn't look like they went in and altered it in certain places. And then somehow the people that would be interested in the Book of Mormon wouldn't be interested anymore because there is another version of the story floating around that was published by the disgruntled wife of Martin Harris and a gang of Joseph's enemies.

And in all of this, Joseph isn't able to explain the "loose" translation theory that would easily explain why the two translations don't match up. And he isn't able to explain to people that months earlier, the angry wife of his financier stole those pages and altered them.

All I can say is the gospel might be simply wonderful and wonderfully simple, but Church history sure isn't!

[PaulBoyerFan]

Doesn't the D&C specifically say that conspiring men had them and would try to use them to "foil" Joseph Smith? I believe they are in some old forgotten box in some old Methodist library somewhere back East.

D&C says a lot of crazy things. D&C 107 and 116 establish that Adam supposedly resided in Missouri. Do you believe that?

I'm curious as to why you think these "conspiring men" would have then donated the original manuscript at some point to a library associated with a Methodist seminary or college that has never bothered to catalog its collection.

[Nathair/|\]

D&C says a lot of crazy things. D&C 107 and 116 establish that Adam supposedly resided in Missouri. Do you believe that?

I'm curious as to why you think these "conspiring men" would have then donated the original manuscript at some point to a library associated with a Methodist seminary or college that has never bothered to catalog its collection.

Since when are the words of Christ "crazy?"

[cdowis]

That plan involves Joseph and Martin using even more of Martin's time and money to go back and re-translate. Then it involves that re-translation being made publicly available. Then it involves the Lucy Harris gang somehow making their altered version publicly available in such a way that people compare it to the Joseph Smith publication. And somehow the alterations would be done in such a way that it doesn't look like they went in and altered it in certain places.

They simply publish their version of the 116 pages. If anyone asks for the written manuscripts, they simply say that the pages are locked away several hundred miles away. And someone would hire a handwriting expert to compare the manuscripts? Assuming that such experts existed in 1830.And they can hire their own "expert", who is willing to swear that the handwriting matched.

By the time this is all sorted out, if at all, the damage is already done, and the story is buried on page 11, assuming any newspaper has any interest in defending JS honor.

What third party is going to expend the resources to get to the truth in this matter? If you really believe that this was possible, please give us some of those individuals or organizations that would perform such a project. This was the 19th century. Even today, almost 40% still question whether Obama is a citizen.

Finally, the problem with your scheme of simply destroying it is refuted by the fact that they continued to translate the BOM (the small plates) and it was eventually published. Martin Harris was determined to do what he promised to do, and destroying the manuscript would have no effect at all.

We can clearly see from actual events that the only scheme that would work is to completely discredit JS, not simply hiding/destroying the pages. And I think she knew that.

[Mudcat]

I think she burned em up. Makes sense.

[CA Steve]

I think she burned em up. Makes sense.

Especially with the faulty candles they owned.

[cinepro]

They simply publish their version of the 116 pages. If anyone asks for the written manuscripts, they simply say that the pages are locked away several hundred miles away. And someone would hire a handwriting expert to compare the manuscripts? Assuming that such experts existed in 1830.And they can hire their own "expert", who is willing to swear that the handwriting matched.

By the time this is all sorted out, if at all, the damage is already done, and the story is buried on page 11, assuming any newspaper has any interest in defending JS honor. What third party is going to expend the resources to get to the truth in this matter? If you really believe that this was possible, please give us some of those names or organizations that would perform such a project.

So, does that plan keep the Mr. and Mrs. Harris from losing more money? Or does it require even more money to be spent both by Martin and Joseph, plus the additional time and effort needed on the part of Mrs. Harris and co. in order to successfully undermine the Book of Mormon project and thus ensure that Martin and Lucy lose all of the money invested in the project?

It would have even been logical for Lucy to seize the papers since they were funded with their money and try to recoup their investment by publishing what had been transcribed so far. Even that would make more sense then the idea of planning to lose all your money by playing a "long con" and trying to discredit the book your husband just spent all your money funding into existence just as it is going on sale and you stand a chance to make your money back.

Finally, the problem with your scheme of simply destroying it is refuted by the fact that they continued to translate the BOM (the small plates) and it was eventually published. Martin Harris was determined to do what he promised to do, and destroying the manuscript would have no effect at all.

We can clearly see from actual events that the only scheme that would work is to completely discredit JS, not simply hiding/destroying the pages. And I think she knew that.

Following the loss of the 116 pages, Martin no longer worked to help translate the pages, and for a while it may have seemed the entire endeavor had come to an end. Keep in mind it was at least 2 months between the loss of the 116 pages and the continuation of dictation with a new scribe; maybe longer. Eldon Watson estimates the translation stopped on June 14, 1828 and resumed October 29, 1828. If Lucy's only objective was to get Martin booted off the project and delay it for 4 months (and cause Joseph some anguish in the process), then she was successful.