Lost 116 Pages poll

[blackstrap]

Considering the traction that the Spaulding manuscript has had over the past century. Another story showing up that matched quite closely , but written by some other citizen ,might/could have a significant deterrent effect.

[Robert F. Smith]

Don't know the final disposition of those pages, but there weren't 116 pages in the Book of Lehi through the first couple of chapters of Mosiah (all lost to Mrs Harris). That 116 number is merely the count of the missing pages based on the actual page count in the still extant translation of the Small Plates, as copied on the Printer's Manuscript (the one created for the Printer by Oliver Cowdery). We don't even know whether those early sheets translated by Joseph with Martin as scribe were numbered. All we have is a later extrapolation.

See Royal Skousen, ed., The Printer's Manuscript of the Book of Mormon, part one (FARMS, 2001), 283.

[mapman]

We don't even know if it was Lucy Harris who stole them. If it was one of Martin Harris' other relatives or one of his friends, I don't think that they would necessarily destroy the manuscript. They probably wouldn't tamper with the manuscript either but instead publish an altered version in a newspaper so that the Book of Mormon would be descredited in many people's eyes. Publishing stolen parts of the Book of Mormon in newspapers did happen. Abner Cole stole parts of the Book of Mormon and probably would have used it in his criticisms of Joseph and could have even altered the text had not Joseph stopped him by legal measures from publishing more extracts.

[PaulBoyerFan]

They simply publish their version of the 116 pages. If anyone asks for the written manuscripts, they simply say that the pages are locked away several hundred miles away. And someone would hire a handwriting expert to compare the manuscripts? Assuming that such experts existed in 1830.And they can hire their own "expert", who is willing to swear that the handwriting matched.

By the time this is all sorted out, if at all, the damage is already done, and the story is buried on page 11, assuming any newspaper has any interest in defending JS honor.

What third party is going to expend the resources to get to the truth in this matter? If you really believe that this was possible, please give us some of those individuals or organizations that would perform such a project. This was the 19th century. Even today, almost 40% still question whether Obama is a citizen.

Finally, the problem with your scheme of simply destroying it is refuted by the fact that they continued to translate the BOM (the small plates) and it was eventually published. Martin Harris was determined to do what he promised to do, and destroying the manuscript would have no effect at all.

We can clearly see from actual events that the only scheme that would work is to completely discredit JS, not simply hiding/destroying the pages. And I think she knew that.

Why would anyone go to all of this trouble? If someone today were publishing a mediocre work of science fiction and claimed that it was a translation of a text delivered to them by space aiiens, do you really that people would try to steal the text and then discredit it by pointing out supposed errors in the translation? The same applies to Smith's mediocre work of genre fiction. After all, plenty of people commented on the more obvious problems with the published text. Alexander Campbell's "An analysis of the book of Mormon with an examination of its internal and external evidences, and a refutation of its pretenses to divine authority," published early in 1831 comes to mind:

"This prophet Smith, through his stone spectacles, wrote on the plates of Nephi, in his book of Mormon, every error and almost every truth discussed in N. York for the last ten years. He decides all the great controversies - infant baptism, ordination, the trinity, regeneration, repentance, justification, the fall of man, the atonement, transubstantiation, fasting, penance, church government, religious experience, the call to the ministry, the general resurrection, eternal punishment, who may baptize, and even the question of freemasonry, republican government, and the rights of man. All these topics are repeatedly alluded to. How much more benevolent and intelligent this American Apostle, than were the holy twelve, and Paul to assist them! He prophesied of all these topics, and of the apostacy, and infallibly decided, by his authority, every question. How easy to prophecy of the past or of the present time!"

"The book professes to be written at intervals and by different persons during the long period of 1020 years. And yet for uniformity of style, there never was a book more evidently written by one set of fingers, nor more certainly conceived in one cranium since the first book appeared in human language, than this same book. If I could swear to any man's voice, face or person, assuming different names, I could swear that this book was written by one man. And as Joseph Smith is a very ignorant man and is called the author on the title page, I cannot doubt for a single moment that he is the sole author and proprietor of it. As a specimen of his style the reader will take the following samples - Page 4th. In his own preface: - 'The plates of which hath been spoken.' In the last page, 'the plates of which hath been spoken.' In the certificate signed by Cowdery and his two witnesses, he has the same idiom, 'which came from the tower of which hath been spoken;' page 16, 'we are a descendant of Joseph.' 'The virgin which thou seest is the mother of God.' 'Behold the Lamb of God the Eternal Father,' p. 25; 'Ye are like unto they,' 'and I saith unto them,' p.44. 'We did arrive to the promised land;' p.49, 'made mention upon the first plate,' p.50.

Nephi 2400 years ago hears the saying of a Pagan who lived 634 years after him - 'The God of nature suffers.' p.51. 'The righteous need not fear, for it is they which shall not be confounded.' p.58. Shakespeare was read by Nephi 2200 years before he was born - 'The silent grave from whence no traveller returns,' 61. 'Your own eternal welfare' was a phrase then common in America, p.62. 'Salvation is free' was then announced. 'That Jesus should rise from the dead' was repeatedly declared on this continent in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar. And at the same time it was said, 'Messiah cometh in the fulness of time that he might redeem the children of men from the fall;' p.65. 'The fall' was frequently spoken of at the Isthmus of Darien 2400 years ago."

I guess that Campbell was more sensitive to theological anachronisms than LDS apologists.

[Nathair/|\]

Why would anyone go to all of this trouble? If someone today were publishing a mediocre work of science fiction and claimed that it was a translation of a text delivered to them by space aiiens, do you really that people would try to steal the text and then discredit it by pointing out supposed errors in the translation? The same applies to Smith's mediocre work of genre fiction. After all, plenty of people commented on the more obvious problems with the published text. Alexander Campbell's "An analysis of the book of Mormon with an examination of its internal and external evidences, and a refutation of its pretenses to divine authority," published early in 1831 comes to mind:

"This prophet Smith, through his stone spectacles, wrote on the plates of Nephi, in his book of Mormon, every error and almost every truth discussed in N. York for the last ten years. He decides all the great controversies - infant baptism, ordination, the trinity, regeneration, repentance, justification, the fall of man, the atonement, transubstantiation, fasting, penance, church government, religious experience, the call to the ministry, the general resurrection, eternal punishment, who may baptize, and even the question of freemasonry, republican government, and the rights of man. All these topics are repeatedly alluded to. How much more benevolent and intelligent this American Apostle, than were the holy twelve, and Paul to assist them! He prophesied of all these topics, and of the apostacy, and infallibly decided, by his authority, every question. How easy to prophecy of the past or of the present time!"

"The book professes to be written at intervals and by different persons during the long period of 1020 years. And yet for uniformity of style, there never was a book more evidently written by one set of fingers, nor more certainly conceived in one cranium since the first book appeared in human language, than this same book. If I could swear to any man's voice, face or person, assuming different names, I could swear that this book was written by one man. And as Joseph Smith is a very ignorant man and is called the author on the title page, I cannot doubt for a single moment that he is the sole author and proprietor of it. As a specimen of his style the reader will take the following samples - Page 4th. In his own preface: - 'The plates of which hath been spoken.' In the last page, 'the plates of which hath been spoken.' In the certificate signed by Cowdery and his two witnesses, he has the same idiom, 'which came from the tower of which hath been spoken;' page 16, 'we are a descendant of Joseph.' 'The virgin which thou seest is the mother of God.' 'Behold the Lamb of God the Eternal Father,' p. 25; 'Ye are like unto they,' 'and I saith unto them,' p.44. 'We did arrive to the promised land;' p.49, 'made mention upon the first plate,' p.50.

Nephi 2400 years ago hears the saying of a Pagan who lived 634 years after him - 'The God of nature suffers.' p.51. 'The righteous need not fear, for it is they which shall not be confounded.' p.58. Shakespeare was read by Nephi 2200 years before he was born - 'The silent grave from whence no traveller returns,' 61. 'Your own eternal welfare' was a phrase then common in America, p.62. 'Salvation is free' was then announced. 'That Jesus should rise from the dead' was repeatedly declared on this continent in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar. And at the same time it was said, 'Messiah cometh in the fulness of time that he might redeem the children of men from the fall;' p.65. 'The fall' was frequently spoken of at the Isthmus of Darien 2400 years ago."

I guess that Campbell was more sensitive to theological anachronisms than LDS apologists.

I guess it shows how wonderful the Book of Mormon really is when so many people have tried to discredit it and haven't been able to so much as scratch or dent it.

THE ACHIEVEMENT OF THE BOOK OF MORMON

* * * * * * * *

A century and a quarter ago, a young man shocked and angered the world by bringing out a large book that he set up beside the Bible, not as a commentary or a key to the scriptures, but as original scripture

[cinepro]

It should also be pointed out that the entire scheme outlined in D&C 10 wholly relies on a "tight" translation process. If the translation process was instead "loose" (as some have theorized), there wouldn't have been a need for the Small Plates and an alternate version of the story.

Joseph would have recognized the faulty assumption on which the plan was based, explained that the translation process was imprecise so a re-translation would be expected to be different, and that would be that.

[Palerider]

I guess it shows how wonderful the Book of Mormon really is when so many people have tried to discredit it and haven't been able to so much as scratch or dent it.

"As he lay bleeding to death he bravely protested,""See! You never touched me!"".............."

[cdowis]

It should also be pointed out that the entire scheme outlined in D&C 10 wholly relies on a "tight" translation process.

Really? Please explain.

If the translation process was instead "loose" (as some have theorized), there wouldn't have been a need for the Small Plates and an alternate version of the story.

I recognize that you are writing in the English language, but you don't make sense. How does a loose translation make it the small plates of Nephi unnecessary? Unless, by loose, you mean it was completed out of whole cloth. The entire story, names and doctrines taught were completely "loose", and had nothing to do with an actual text.

Perhaps you are assuming that the changes would be made on the original manuscript. But they simply create an entirely new manuscript and publish it. Make this new manuscript unavailable from public view, "for its protection." They would make some similarities to the 116 pages, but adding significant differences. Change names, dotrinal statements, the route, the story itself.

And you claim that a "loose" translation would cover such changes, do you?

Joseph would have recognized the faulty assumption on which the plan was based, explained that the translation process was imprecise so a re-translation would be expected to be different, and that would be that.

I believe that you are making the flawed assumptions. Change Lehi to George, Nephi to Sampson, change the directions they are moving, make significant changes to the dialog, etc.

And, once again, please identify the organizations or individuals would be willing and able to clear up the forgery. Track down the forgery and the original, do a scientific analysis of the handwriting, publish the results.

Cinepro, you come up with some oddball notions, but this one takes the prize.

[cdowis]

nathair,

Please open a new thread, so that we will not derail this one.

We will be delighted to respond to Campbell's arguments, since you seem so very impressed with them.

[Doug the Hutt]

OP: I think the 116 lost pages were not burned, but hidden to be used if Joseph ever tried re-translating Lehi's Book. I also think there's a greater possibility of finding those 116 pages than finding even one single Nephite city, or the place Jesus came to visit them, or the replication of the Temple of Solomon without the precious things despite the abundance of gold, silver, brass, copper, iron, steel, wood and precious ores found in abundance.

Were there no experts on handwriting in 1830? Interesting that Jean-Hippolyte Michon, the father of graphology, was born the year after Joseph Smith Jr. It should be elementary for a handwriting & forgery expert to see alterations made to an original manuscript by someone other than the author (the would-be-conspiring-idiots mentioned in D&C 10). Martin Harris' handwriting should be distinct from Lucy's or disbelieving friends of the Harris family. Of course the beings conversing in section 10 aren't even aware of that (it's like they didn't even know enough to know that they didn't know). I think the entire premise laid out in D&C 10 for not re-translating the 116 pages from the Book of Lehi is preposterous if Joseph were telling the truth about having ancient Gold Plates and being called of God to translate them for us into Bible-ese-English.

Two ways to look at it:

* If Joseph Smith really had ancient Gold Plates detailing the history of the ancient inhabitants of America (delivered to him by a real Angel of God no less) available to him, had a magical translator stone and was really imbued with God's own power like he said he did he should be quite capable of starting over from the beginning and reproducing the entirety of the translation. It should match the text of the lost 116 pages. No amount of crossing out, erasing and/or replacing words in the original manuscript would ultimately fool an expert in the field -- that would actually work to the Prophet's advantage and ultimately vindicate him. Lucy's logic was very rational.

* If Joseph was making up religious fiction in an ad hoc fashion and tried to reproduce his earlier work it would be in vain. He would certainly make errors, and they certainly would call him on it. His credibility as Prophet, Seer, Revelator would suffer. He'd have to get a job doing something else.

* If Joseph was making up religious fiction as he went along and knew there wasn't a snowball's chance on Hah-ko-kau-beam to reproduce his work without leaving out characters, or mangling plot devices, or altering thematic elements, or getting scriptures misquoted, or any number of important literary details then he would need to find a legitimate-sounding excuse that no true believer could deny without losing their eternal salvation for why there would be differences and why he shouldn't have to be forced to perform for Lucy & company. That my friends is what we have in Doctrine & Covenants section 10: wicked men will change the original and pull it out of hiding with all the differences in the story which should show that Joseph was not telling the truth about translating an ancient written record from a stack of Gold Plates because the texts don't match.

[mapman]

Joseph would have recognized the faulty assumption on which the plan was based, explained that the translation process was imprecise so a re-translation would be expected to be different, and that would be that.

Who would listen to what Joseph had to say? It would be unlikely that that Joseph could get the word out as well as his critics since the newspapers in the area were owned by critics of the Book of Mormon and wouldn't publish an explanation.

[cdowis]

Were there no experts on handwriting in 1830? Interesting that Jean-Hippolyte Michon, the father of graphology, was born the year after Joseph Smith Jr. It should be elementary for a handwriting & forgery expert to see alterations made to an original manuscript by someone other than the author (the would-be-conspiring-idiots mentioned in D&C 10).

Third request == please give us the names of an organization or credible individual who will expend the resource to look for the original manuscript, and compare the handwriting on the forgery in order to defend the honor of this NY farmboy.

Martin Harris' handwriting should be distinct from Lucy's or disbelieving friends of the Harris family.

You are assuming that the forgers will make the forged document available for analysis in any timely manner. That the analysis will be done by a "certified" professional, rather than by one one the forgers themselves.

You are vey naive.

Of course the beings conversing in section 10 aren't even aware of that (it's like they didn't even know enough to know that they didn't know). I think the entire premise laid out in D&C 10 for not re-translating the 116 pages from the Book of Lehi is preposterous if Joseph were telling the truth about having ancient Gold Plates and being called of God to translate them for us into Bible-ese-English.

I think your entire scenario of finding certified experts in handwriting being allowed to do a detailed analysis of the manuscripts is preposterous. Almost 40% surveyed today still question whether Obama was born in the USA, despite all the resources of the White House to defend him.

Two ways to look at it:

* If Joseph Smith really had ancient Gold Plates detailing the history of the ancient inhabitants of America (delivered to him by a real Angel of God no less) available to him, had a magical translator stone and was really imbued with God's own power like he said he did he should be quite capable of starting over from the beginning and reproducing the entirety of the translation. It should match the text of the lost 116 pages. No amount of crossing out, erasing and/or replacing words in the original manuscript would ultimately fool an expert in the field -- that would actually work to the Prophet's advantage and ultimately vindicate him. Lucy's logic was very rational.

******FIFTH REQUEST****** GIVE US THE NAMES OF ORGANIZATIONS OR CREDIBLE INDIVIDUALS who will expend the resources to locate and do a formal analysis of the manuscripts by a certified expert.

That the forgers will allow such an analysis of their forgery.

You are living in a world of magic and fantasy if you think your scenario has any basis in reality.

[Fifth Columnist]

Another problem with the D&C 10 version of events is that it requires some very evil men. These men were so evil that: (a) they knew without any doubt that JS was a prophet and that he could retranslate the missing pages word for word so they had to proactively modify the text in a way that untrained people would be unable to tell it was modified (so Martin Harris couldn't look at it and say "that's not my handwriting") or (b) they doubted JS was a prophet, stole the manuscript as a way to test whether he could reproduce it, JS reproduces it word for word, the evil men realize JS really is a prophet but they are so evil that they modify the text to try and discredit JS. Both scenarios sound far fetched to me.

[PaulBoyerFan]

Another problem with the D&C 10 version of events is that it requires some very evil men. These men were so evil that: (a) they knew without any doubt that JS was a prophet and that he could retranslate the missing pages word for word so they had to proactively modify the text in a way that untrained people would be unable to tell it was modified (so Martin Harris couldn't look at it and say "that's not my handwriting") or (b) they doubted JS was a prophet, stole the manuscript as a way to test whether he could reproduce it, JS reproduces it word for word, the evil men realize JS really is a prophet but they are so evil that they modify the text to try and discredit JS. Both scenarios sound far fetched to me.

Exactly, the entire portrayal of Smith's critics and supposed enemies by Smith assumes that they were INCREDIBLY evil. "Gee, God has clearly called a modern-day prophet and revealed to him a sacred scripture that will reveal the fullness of God's will for us? Let's engage in some convoluted scheme to try to frustrate this effort because of some supposed arrogance and pride!"

The original preface to the Book of Mormon is great. Smith is pretty clearly trying to explain away in advance any substantive differences and contradictions between the original translation and the published text, should the original translation surface in the wake of the book's publication:

"To The Reader--

As many false reports have been circulated respecting the following work, and also many unlawful measures taken by the evil designing persons to destroy me, and also the work, I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written, one hundred and sixteen pages, the which I took from the Book of Lehi, which was an account abridged from the plates of Lehi, by the hand of Mormon; which said account, some person or persons have stolen and kept from me, notwithstanding my utmost exertions to recover it again--and being commanded of the Lord that I should translate the same over again, for Satan had put it into their hearts to tempt the Lord their God, by altering the words, that they did read contrary from that which I translated and caused to be written; and If I should bring forth the same words again, or in other words, if I should translate the same over again, they would publish that which they had stolen, and Satan would stir up their hearts of this generation, that they might not receive this work: but behold, the Lord said unto me, I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing: therefore thou shalt translate from the plates of Nephi, until ye come to that which ye have translated, which ye have retained; and behold ye shall publish it as the record of Nephi; and thus I will confound those who have altered my words. I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will shew unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the Devil. Wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, I have, through his grace and mercy, accomplished that which he hath commanded me respecting this thing. I would also inform you that the plates of which hath been spoken, were found in the township of Manchester, Ontario county, New-York"

[cinepro]

Really? Please explain.

As described in D&C 10, the plan is to alter the original translation ("And behold, I say unto you, that because they have altered the words, they read contrary from that which you translated and caused to be written"). I guess we don't know to what degree they had "altered the words". You are assuming they made huge, story-changing alterations. I always assumed they were much more minor. After all, it still had to be recognizable as a document that was "translated" by Joseph Smith.

Perhaps you are assuming that the changes would be made on the original manuscript. But they simply create an entirely new manuscript and publish it. Make this new manuscript unavailable from public view, "for its protection." They would make some similarities to the 116 pages, but adding significant differences. Change names, dotrinal statements, the route, the story itself.

I believe that you are making the flawed assumptions. Change Lehi to George, Nephi to Sampson, change the directions they are moving, make significant changes to the dialog, etc.

If that is the plan, then they don't need to steal the 116 pages. They could simply wait until the Book of Mormon were published, and then take what was published and change Lehi to George, Nephi to Sampson, change the directions they are moving, make significant changes to dialog etc.

In other words, the plan you have described doesn't require the participation of Lucy Harris or the procurement of any of the manuscript pages.

And again, the plan you have described requires Martin to continue furnishing money to Joseph until the completion of the project, and then trying to attack the project in such a way that the plan's success would make it impossible for Martin to recover his investment. Lucy might have been crazy and irrational, but even crazy and irrational people usually act in their own shallow self-interest. Especially when it comes to money.

When you're investing money in an endeavor, you either pull out if you change your mind and cut your losses, or you keep doing everything you can to make the endeavor a success. You don't continue investing while at the same time doing everything you can to make the endeavor fail.

[cinepro]

Another problem with the D&C 10 version of events is that it requires some very evil men. These men were so evil that: (a) they knew without any doubt that JS was a prophet and that he could retranslate the missing pages word for word so they had to proactively modify the text in a way that untrained people would be unable to tell it was modified (so Martin Harris couldn't look at it and say "that's not my handwriting") or (b) they doubted JS was a prophet, stole the manuscript as a way to test whether he could reproduce it, JS reproduces it word for word, the evil men realize JS really is a prophet but they are so evil that they modify the text to try and discredit JS. Both scenarios sound far fetched to me.

The timeline for the scheme is also oddly vague.

According to Eldon Watson, the translation of the "116 Pages" took two months (April 12 - June 14, 1828). After the pages are stolen, the plan assumes Joseph would go back and start over. So that's another two months. Then, the plotters wouldn't know how close Joseph was to finishing. Was he half way done? Or just 1/4? Or almost finished? Either way, they're looking at some time longer than two months for Joseph to recreate the lost pages. Then add on the two months it took for Joseph to even begin translating again.

So the plan works like this:

1. Convince Lucy Harris to convince Martin to convince Joseph to lend her the pages.

2. Once Lucy has the pages, steal them.

3. Wait for Martin to discover they're missing, and then wait for Martin to tell Joseph.

4. Wait for Joseph to begin "translating" again.

5. Wait for Joseph to finish translating.

6. In the meantime, study the original stolen translation. Determine which member of the gang has sufficient literary skills to alter it. Produce an alternate version of the manuscript with alterations made, or alter the original manuscript.

7. Find a publisher for the altered stolen translation. Convince them to publish it.

8. When Joseph is finished translating, wait for him to publish the book.

9. Now the trap has been set! Draw attention to your publication, and tell people it is the original version of Joseph's story! When people ask where you got it, and how you are publishing it, have a really good answer.

10. Now that you've gone public, hope Joseph doesn't take legal action against you.

11. Sit back, and wait for people to read your publication and Joseph Smith's, and carefully compare them and come to the conclusion that because they are different, Joseph must be a fraud, since there are no other plausible explanations on how enemies of Joseph's could have published a story that was different than Joseph's other than your explanation that you stole his original manuscript but didn't make any changes to it before publishing it.

It's almost too easy.

[Fifth Columnist]

The timeline for the scheme is also oddly vague.

According to Eldon Watson, the translation of the "116 Pages" took two months (April 12 - June 14, 1828). After the pages are stolen, the plan assumes Joseph would go back and start over. So that's another two months. Then, the plotters wouldn't know how close Joseph was to finishing. Was he half way done? Or just 1/4? Or almost finished? Either way, they're looking at some time longer than two months for Joseph to recreate the lost pages. Then add on the two months it took for Joseph to even begin translating again.

So the plan works like this:

1. Convince Lucy Harris to convince Martin to convince Joseph to lend her the pages.

2. Once Lucy has the pages, steal them.

3. Wait for Martin to discover they're missing, and then wait for Martin to tell Joseph.

4. Wait for Joseph to begin "translating" again.

5. Wait for Joseph to finish translating.

6. In the meantime, study the original stolen translation. Determine which member of the gang has sufficient literary skills to alter it. Produce an alternate version of the manuscript with alterations made, or alter the original manuscript.

7. Find a publisher for the altered stolen translation. Convince them to publish it.

8. When Joseph is finished translating, wait for him to publish the book.

9. Now the trap has been set! Draw attention to your publication, and tell people it is the original version of Joseph's story! When people ask where you got it, and how you are publishing it, have a really good answer.

10. Now that you've gone public, hope Joseph doesn't take legal action against you.

11. Sit back, and wait for people to read your publication and Joseph Smith's, and carefully compare them and come to the conclusion that because they are different, Joseph must be a fraud, since there are no other plausible explanations on how enemies of Joseph's could have published a story that was different than Joseph's other than your explanation that you stole his original manuscript but didn't make any changes to it before publishing it.

It's almost too easy.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. At least a lot more than the following scenario.

1. Joseph and Martin translate the 116 pages.

2. Lucy Harris is angry that her husband has committed his time and money to the production of this book.

3. Martin obtains the manuscript to show it to Lucy to convince her that it really is inspired by God.

4. Lucy is not convinced and is still ticked so she burns the manuscript.

5. Martin tells Joseph who becomes despondent.

6. Joseph's mother (Lucy Smith) suggests that this is all a nefarious plot by evil men to alter the manuscript so that when Joseph translates it again the two versions won't match up.

7. God confirms Lucy Smith's speculation through a revelation to Joseph (now D&C 10).

8. Joseph translates the text again only to find that God had foreseen this cosmic conundrum thousands of years ago and inspired Mormon to include the small plates of Nephi in the BOM.

9. The rest is history.

The only real problem with this scenario is step 7. Mormons can't accept this scenario because God told them it all went down the way Lucy Smith suggested to Joseph.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

D&C says a lot of crazy things. D&C 107 and 116 establish that Adam supposedly resided in Missouri. Do you believe that?

Yes.

I'm curious as to why you think these "conspiring men" would have then donated the original manuscript at some point to a library associated with a Methodist seminary or college that has never bothered to catalog its collection.

I don't believe they donated it to a "Methodist Seminary or College". I believe the main conspirators were of the Methodist class of religion and it was held by them and when Joseph didn't do as they thought he would do and re-translate the lost portion, it was put on a shelf, shoved in a box, and eventually forgotten.

[cdowis]

As described in D&C 10, the plan is to alter the original translation ("And behold, I say unto you, that because they have altered the words, they read contrary from that which you translated and caused to be written"). I guess we don't know to what degree they had "altered the words". You are assuming they made huge, story-changing alterations. I always assumed they were much more minor. After all, it still had to be recognizable as a document that was "translated" by Joseph Smith.

I think that is what I said. But the changes would be few in number, but significant. Changing a couple of names, for example, are not story changing alterations. Just a few words here and there that are significant.

They go to Egypt, instead of Saudi Arabia, a few names changed, a few changes in doctrine, etc. Nothing massive.

If that is the plan, then they don't need to steal the 116 pages. They could simply wait until the Book of Mormon were published, and then take what was published and change Lehi to George, Nephi to Sampson, change the directions they are moving, make significant changes to dialog etc.

In other words, the plan you have described doesn't require the participation of Lucy Harris or the procurement of any of the manuscript pages.

Are you familiar with the Dogberry papers? This is basically what he did. The 116 pages had to be missing so that they can claim legitimacy, that they were in possession of the "original" manuscript. They then publish the "original", and it does not match the published translation.

Again, you are so clever that your scenario collapses upon itself.

And again, the plan you have described requires Martin to continue furnishing money to Joseph until the completion of the project,

Martin continues to support the publication of the BOM.

and then trying to attack the project in such a way that the plan's success would make it impossible for Martin to recover his investment. Lucy might have been crazy and irrational, but even crazy and irrational people usually act in their own shallow self-interest. Especially when it comes to money.

You have me convinced. Mrs. Martin had nothing to do with the manuscript being missing, or this plan at all. She allowed everybody to view the manuscript, and a relative stole it and gave it to the Methodists, They were not motivated by money, but by "righteous indignation", to discredit the false prophet.

I suppose that, although delighted that they were missing, she was as surprised as anyone that the manuscript was missing.

When you're investing money in an endeavor, you either pull out if you change your mind and cut your losses, or you keep doing everything you can to make the endeavor a success. You don't continue investing while at the same time doing everything you can to make the endeavor fail.

[cdowis]

So the plan works like this:

1. Convince Lucy Harris to convince Martin to convince Joseph to lend her the pages.

2. Once Lucy has the pages, steal them.

There are an unlimited number of suspects, since she showed them to any interested party. Your whole scenario is based on an unproved assumption, that Lucy stole the manuscript and was the guiding force behind the conspiract.

*******CFR**** please, that Lucy stole the manuscript.

3. Wait for Martin to discover they're missing, and then wait for Martin to tell Joseph.

4. Wait for Joseph to begin "translating" again.

5. Wait for Joseph to finish translating.

6. In the meantime, study the original stolen translation. Determine which member of the gang has sufficient literary skills to alter it. Produce an alternate version of the manuscript with alterations made, or alter the original manuscript.

7. Find a publisher for the altered stolen translation. Convince them to publish it.

Are you familiar with the Dogberry papers? Newspapers would be standing in line to publish it. It would be the story of the year, where a phoney prophet is exposed.

8. When Joseph is finished translating, wait for him to publish the book.

9. Now the trap has been set! Draw attention to your publication, and tell people it is the original version of Joseph's story! When people ask where you got it, and how you are publishing it, have a really good answer.

10. Now that you've gone public, hope Joseph doesn't take legal action against you.

Actually you hope that he takes you to court. All he has to do is to product the original manuscript, and compare it to the phoney. BUT YOU YOURSELF HOLD **BOTH COPIES**.

You hope and pray that he will sue you so that you can discredit him publically in court. If the court asks you to produce the manuscript, you delay, delay, and then "

[cdowis]

Another problem with the D&C 10 version of events is that it requires some very evil men. These men were so evil that: (a) they knew without any doubt that JS was a prophet and that he could retranslate the missing pages word for word so they had to proactively modify the text in a way that untrained people would be unable to tell it was modified (so Martin Harris couldn't look at it and say "that's not my handwriting") or (b) they doubted JS was a prophet, stole the manuscript as a way to test whether he could reproduce it, JS reproduces it word for word, the evil men realize JS really is a prophet but they are so evil that they modify the text to try and discredit JS. Both scenarios sound far fetched to me.

I remember a discussion on the BOM, and its origin, with a BOM critic. When I finally pinned him down on the question on the source of the book, he claimed that Satan was the author. No mortal man could have written it.

We don't need incredibly evil people, but incredibly stupid and naive. They are "God's helpers" to discredit this false prophet. Satan has guided him in the writing of the BOM, and he will help JS in restoring the 116 pages which, by good fortune, are in their hands.

God will reward their efforts in exposing this false prophet, led by Satan.

They are as evil as the suicide bombers who blow themselves up, while killing both Muslim and the enemy. God will reward such sacfifice, so they are not evil, but deceived and stupid. Such people do indeed exist.

[mapman]

I know it's hard to believe but there are actually people that spend a lot of time and effort trying to tear down Mormonism. See CARM, the Tanners, and certain posters here for modern examples. I know it's irrational but people do it.

[cdowis]

Everyone is assuming Lucy Harris stole the manuscript. We have no statement from her on what happened.

Perhaps someone, unbeknownst to her, stole it, or it is even possible that she lent out the papers to a friend or relative who promised to return it.

So, the whole conspracy was carried out by persons unknown, and here we have some of our smart guys trying to lay the blame on her. Going so far as to figure out her motives, and what she would or would not have done.

I have issued a formal CFR on her responsibility for removing the 116 pages, and let's see what these bright boys come up with. Their entire argument is based on an unproven assumption.

"It's almost too easy". Yeah, if you pretend that assumptions are facts.

[Jason]

Another problem with the D&C 10 version of events is that it requires some very evil men. These men were so evil that: (a) they knew without any doubt that JS was a prophet and that he could retranslate the missing pages word for word so they had to proactively modify the text in a way that untrained people would be unable to tell it was modified (so Martin Harris couldn't look at it and say "that's not my handwriting") or (b) they doubted JS was a prophet, stole the manuscript as a way to test whether he could reproduce it, JS reproduces it word for word, the evil men realize JS really is a prophet but they are so evil that they modify the text to try and discredit JS. Both scenarios sound far fetched to me.

It sounds farfetched to you that the world contains very evil men?

As has been mentioned, they needn't have believed that Joseph was an authentic prophet to beleive that something supernatural was aiding him. And there are in fact some men in the world who willingly play for the other side.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Everyone is assuming Lucy Harris stole the manuscript. We have no statement from her on what happened.

This theory is about as sound as those that think the BoM was produced with the "Manuscript Found" theory. Lots of speculation but no real evidence.