Fasting

[JVW]

I'm not going to take time to make this post pretty, so if anyone wants to add any sources or whatever feel free to do so below (or maybe I will when I get the time).

A few days ago the Utah state governor Cox put a post on Facebook asking Utahns to pray for snow/rain because of the drought this winter season. Yesterday I get an email from my Stake President asking the whole Stake to fast and pray for snow/rain because the Utah governor asked Utahns to pray for it. They both believe that there is power in fasting for snow/rain and that it will help our state.

Several years ago during the summer my Bishop asked the ward to pray for rain because there was drought-like conditions. IIRC Utah governor Cox asked the state to pray for rain around that time as well. I remember wondering at the time, "what if rain is against God's will and He wants a drought right now? I don't want to fast and pray for something contrary to God's will." I spent the next few weeks reflecting on this and studying about fasting to try and figure out exactly what fasting is and what purpose it serves. I read Isaiah 53, I looked up TG for fasting, I read about fasting in the D&C. The result of my study was as follows:

People don't eat when they are sad or stressed. People tend to feast when they are happy and celebrating. Therefore I do not believe that the verse in D&C mentioning fasting in joy is God's word, I believe that verse is false scripture. Every other canonized instance of fasting is coupled with mourning and weakness. Fasting is not some "super powered prayer" or a magic bullet to insert extra money into a Celestial vending machine to get a prize. Fasting is designed to help the soul recognize the gravity of the situation its in, its reliance on the Messiah for salvation and comfort, and to turn one's heart towards God.

After I came to this conclusion I decided to fast and pray for rain with the ward because I liked my Bishop. A curious thing followed. Later that same day on Fast Sunday, a teeny tiny little rain cloud passed over the ward neighborhood and we had a light sprinkling for about 10 seconds under a shadow, and then it passed. In that moment I laughed and recognized that God has His own ways of respecting the sacrifice of His saints while still getting His way.

I do not intend to fast and pray for rain with my Stake or in order to honor my local church leadership or Utah state govt. I believe it is God's will for Utah to have a drought. I do not believe that God is causing a drought with a condition that if people pray extra hard that He'll change His mind. I think that's a dumb notion to have.

Anyways, now that I have said my peace, what do you all think? What is fasting? Why do we fast? What can be accomplished with fasting? (If it's safe to ask) Do you think it's appropriate for govt leaders at any level to ask their constituents to pray for anything? Do you think it's a good idea to fast and pray for rain? Is there any historical precedent for this in LDS or early church history? Do you believe the verse on fasting in D&C is God's word? How do you reconcile that with all other verses on fasting? etc. etc.

Thanks for reading and participating in this thread everyone. I appreciate all of you and your wisdom and thoughtfulness. Yes, even you!

[bluebell]

I remember a few years ago in my Stake they were having a really bad drought. The Stake is mostly agriculture, farmers and ranchers, so it was a big deal. The Stake president asked everybody to fast for rain and a break from the record high temps, and then the day after the fast the temperature was like 105 and no rain in sight. A little while later, the Stake president told us he had shared this experience with a visiting GA.   The GA said “well, it never hurts to ask”

That’s my opinion as far as fasting and prayer goes. We do our best not to ask amiss, but we always leave it in God’s hands and work to accept his will.

[Pyreaux]

I don't see a drought as always deliberate. It doesn't seem like everything in nature is all a micromanaged act of God’s will that we shouldn't interfere with. The universe and the weather might just be "doing its thing" within a set of natural laws, and God leaves room for human intervention to influence the outcome.

There is no predestiny. There is no fixed fate. Prayer and fasting become active variables in an open system. The future isn't a pre-written script, then communal fasting could be a way to tap into what allows God to intervene without violating our agency. It’s not about "changing His mind," but about providing an opening for Him to act where He otherwise wouldn't.

Your view could be seen as fatalistic. If we believe God only acts when His "will" dictates it regardless of us, why pray at all? Why pray for the sick? Why pray for safety? I say our desires and efforts, even if misguided, could actually matter in the final equation of what happens on Earth.

Prayer and fasting aren't about trying to 'force' God to change a pre-set plan. Instead, they are ways we participate in the living plan. God might be waiting for us to exercise our agency and faith together before intervening in the natural order. 

"Ye have not, because ye ask not." (James 4:2)

[blackstrap]

Mat 13: 58 and Mark 5:6 ? speak of Christ not doing many miracles in some towns because of a lack of faith/belief. Does that mean He COULD NOT do the miracles ,or would not do them? 

We are instructed to  end healing blessings with the phrase , " If it is Thy will " .

Abraham's pleading with the Lord to spare the cities is also a lesson to us that we can ask for blessings even when the Lord may have other plans. 

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, JVW said:

I'm not going to take time to make this post pretty, so if anyone wants to add any sources or whatever feel free to do so below (or maybe I will when I get the time).

A few days ago the Utah state governor Cox put a post on Facebook asking Utahns to pray for snow/rain because of the drought this winter season. Yesterday I get an email from my Stake President asking the whole Stake to fast and pray for snow/rain because the Utah governor asked Utahns to pray for it. They both believe that there is power in fasting for snow/rain and that it will help our state.

Several years ago during the summer my Bishop asked the ward to pray for rain because there was drought-like conditions. IIRC Utah governor Cox asked the state to pray for rain around that time as well. I remember wondering at the time, "what if rain is against God's will and He wants a drought right now? I don't want to fast and pray for something contrary to God's will." I spent the next few weeks reflecting on this and studying about fasting to try and figure out exactly what fasting is and what purpose it serves. I read Isaiah 53, I looked up TG for fasting, I read about fasting in the D&C. The result of my study was as follows:

People don't eat when they are sad or stressed. People tend to feast when they are happy and celebrating. Therefore I do not believe that the verse in D&C mentioning fasting in joy is God's word, I believe that verse is false scripture. Every other canonized instance of fasting is coupled with mourning and weakness. Fasting is not some "super powered prayer" or a magic bullet to insert extra money into a Celestial vending machine to get a prize. Fasting is designed to help the soul recognize the gravity of the situation its in, its reliance on the Messiah for salvation and comfort, and to turn one's heart towards God.

After I came to this conclusion I decided to fast and pray for rain with the ward because I liked my Bishop. A curious thing followed. Later that same day on Fast Sunday, a teeny tiny little rain cloud passed over the ward neighborhood and we had a light sprinkling for about 10 seconds under a shadow, and then it passed. In that moment I laughed and recognized that God has His own ways of respecting the sacrifice of His saints while still getting His way.

I do not intend to fast and pray for rain with my Stake or in order to honor my local church leadership or Utah state govt. I believe it is God's will for Utah to have a drought. I do not believe that God is causing a drought with a condition that if people pray extra hard that He'll change His mind. I think that's a dumb notion to have.

Anyways, now that I have said my peace, what do you all think? What is fasting? Why do we fast? What can be accomplished with fasting? (If it's safe to ask) Do you think it's appropriate for govt leaders at any level to ask their constituents to pray for anything? Do you think it's a good idea to fast and pray for rain? Is there any historical precedent for this in LDS or early church history? Do you believe the verse on fasting in D&C is God's word? How do you reconcile that with all other verses on fasting? etc. etc.

Thanks for reading and participating in this thread everyone. I appreciate all of you and your wisdom and thoughtfulness. Yes, even you!

A couple of years ago I read/heard that fasting is good for your body. So that's a big plus. 

And in answer to one of the questions, it can't hurt to pray for rain. They've done studies on how lots of prayers for something can work.

[Kenngo1969]

@JVW

Quote

People don't eat when they are sad or stressed. People tend to feast when they are happy and celebrating. Therefore I do not believe that the verse in D&C mentioning fasting in joy is God's word, I believe that verse is false scripture.

Not necessarily.  Some people [even not a few, perhaps] do eat when they are "sad or stressed."  Surely, you've heard the old saying that DESSERTS is just STRESSED spelled backward?   And there are other scriptures that, while they don't necessarily associate joy with fasting, imply that we're not supposed to be "sad sacks" about it.  Cf. Matthew 6:16-18. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@JVW

Not necessarily.  Some people [even not a few, perhaps] do eat when they are "sad or stressed."  Surely, you've heard the old saying that DESSERTS is just STRESSED spelled backward?   And there are other scriptures that, while they don't necessarily associate joy with fasting, imply that we're not supposed to be "sad sacks" about it.  Cf. Matthew 6:16-18. 

My husband and I call it "eating out emotions". 

Of course, one stressor is not having enough food, which may be one reason why the people in the bible are feeling sad or stressed while fasting and then happy when feasting.

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Rain said:

My husband and I call it "eating out emotions". 

Of course, one stressor is not having enough food, which may be one reason why the people in the bible are feeling sad or stressed while fasting and then happy when feasting.

Is there any chance this is how fasting came about?  People were hungry, and the main thing they could do was pray, and as they prayed, they grew closer to God.  So they started to get the idea that if we go without food for a time while praying, then that will bring us closer to him?

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

Is there any chance this is how fasting came about?  People were hungry, and the main thing they could do was pray, and as they prayed, they grew closer to God.  So they started to get the idea that if we go without food for a time while praying, then that will bring us closer to him?

It’s hard to say. In the Old Testament fasting is always voluntary. The people had access to food, but voluntarily chose not to eat. Such as when Moses didn’t eat before going up to the mountain and eventually receiving the 10 Commandments.

Your question made me curious, so I looked it up and according to ChatGPT, the first instance of fasting in the Bible, I’m thinking where the word is used, is in judges when the Israelites fast because they lost a battle.  But I don’t know if we can trust ChatGPT on that.

In the book of Mormon, it sounds like fasting is always used in combo with prayer and seeking favor from God or supplication. It doesn’t sound like it was typically caused by a lack of food or famine, but that’s after a very cursory exploration of the idea.  There’s probably more and better information available out there on the topic.

 

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, Rain said:

Is there any chance this is how fasting came about?  People were hungry, and the main thing they could do was pray, and as they prayed, they grew closer to God.  So they started to get the idea that if we go without food for a time while praying, then that will bring us closer to him?

It is more likely that not eating for extended periods can lead to hallucinations and altered states of mind. This makes it more likely that someone has visions or other ecstatic experiences. You can also see it as God using that change in the body and mind to communicate more easily.

[Calm]

I am out of it today and so am going to let Chat do the summarizing below.  Iirc, this first part matches what I have seen in discussions on fasting in the context of health.  Other hormones/chemicals can improve or lower mood depending on individual biological differences.

For example.  I tend to feel energized and upbeat the first bit of fasting, but headaches hit after that.  If I need to get stuff done just eating fruit for half of the day is the best way to do it because as soon as I eat something more complex, my mood and energy level typically drops. 

Quote

 

Fasting reliably alters consciousness.

Even short fasts:

Increase catecholamines and cortisol

Reduce sensory grounding from eating

Heighten interoceptive awareness

Thin the boundary between body and attention

 

That produces states described, in religious language, as:

Watchfulness

Sobriety

Contrition

“Awakening”

Vulnerability before the divine

 

In premodern contexts, this was useful, not pathological. The goal was not comfort; it was receptivity.

 

[rpn]

My take is that the OP and everyone who hasn't seen it should watch the old movie "Windows of Heaven" before opining on miracles of prayer and fasting.   Which I think you can watch here:

 

[Tony uk]

I have always felt, at least from my own angle on the matter. That prayer and fasting, is way of showing a commitment to what is being called for. And for God to see the persons desire for the outcome to be acceptable. If God then desires the outcome to be done in a certain way, so it will.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tony uk said:

I have always felt, at least from my own angle on the matter. That prayer and fasting, is way of showing a commitment to what is being called for. And for God to see the persons desire for the outcome to be acceptable. If God then desires the outcome to be done in a certain way, so it will.

Agreed.

It can be one way to show that we have some skin in the game, so to speak.  I think it can also help us focus our own thoughts so that we can better understand God's will.

[JVW]

On 1/30/2026 at 7:27 PM, bluebell said:

I remember a few years ago in my Stake they were having a really bad drought. The Stake is mostly agriculture, farmers and ranchers, so it was a big deal. The Stake president asked everybody to fast for rain and a break from the record high temps, and then the day after the fast the temperature was like 105 and no rain in sight. A little while later, the Stake president told us he had shared this experience with a visiting GA.   The GA said “well, it never hurts to ask”

That’s my opinion as far as fasting and prayer goes. We do our best not to ask amiss, but we always leave it in God’s hands and work to accept his will.

That's hilarious. I appreciate this story a lot!

1 hour ago, rpn said:

My take is that the OP and everyone who hasn't seen it should watch the old movie "Windows of Heaven" before opining on miracles of prayer and fasting.   Which I think you can watch here:

 

You're response requires 50 minutes of my time to communicate? Dang, that's hardcore. I'm sorry but I won't be able to watch this for a while due to my hectic life. But if I ever get a moment to sit down and enjoy a short film then I'll do so and respond to you at that point.

 

On 1/30/2026 at 9:48 PM, Pyreaux said:

I don't see a drought as always deliberate. It doesn't seem like everything in nature is all a micromanaged act of God’s will that we shouldn't interfere with. The universe and the weather might just be "doing its thing" within a set of natural laws, and God leaves room for human intervention to influence the outcome.

I take a different stance here, I suppose I could say it's more "Old Testament-y Biblical" stance. I think the weather is under God's purview and man, like they do with everything else, are trying to insert themselves in the place of God regarding the weather. I think that praying and fasting for certain weather just because someone feels like it is the religious version of Bill Gates getting permission from the UK to spread a bunch of chalk dust in the air to dim the sun for Climate Change.

On 1/30/2026 at 9:48 PM, Pyreaux said:

There is no predestiny. There is no fixed fate. Prayer and fasting become active variables in an open system. The future isn't a pre-written script, then communal fasting could be a way to tap into what allows God to intervene without violating our agency. It’s not about "changing His mind," but about providing an opening for Him to act where He otherwise wouldn't.

Predestination is a synonym for foreordination. Do you not believe in foreordination? I agree with you that the future isn't a pre-written script, but I do believe that whatever God wants, God gets. Everything that is, only is because God decides to take action (or not).

What you wrote here reminds me a little of the Bible Dictionary entry on prayer which, while nice, is not canon and I'm happy that we can have differing opinions here. There is still a lot I have to learn about prayer and fasting, but from what I currently understand I view prayer and fasting as tools to help facilitate one's submission wholly to God's will. As Bluebell mentioned, it doesn't hurt to ask, and that vulnerable expression of fears and desires in prayer is part of what it means to commune with God. But I believe that any expectation beyond "God will do what He wills and I accept that" will lead to cognitive dissonance and struggle. 

On 1/30/2026 at 9:48 PM, Pyreaux said:

Your view could be seen as fatalistic. If we believe God only acts when His "will" dictates it regardless of us, why pray at all? Why pray for the sick? Why pray for safety? I say our desires and efforts, even if misguided, could actually matter in the final equation of what happens on Earth.

Life is a wrestle, prayer helps us submit, expressing desires and working hard for what we want are expressions of vulnerability and commitment which can strengthen our relationship with God if done with humility. The most beautiful prayer ever prayed was in the Garden of Gethsemane when Christ says (Mark 14:36), "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." There's vulnerability in using a term of endearment that a little child would use, expression of honest personal desires to not do it, there's acknowledgement of God's power, and there's submission. Imagine if Christ prayed that exact same prayer but in pride, not in humility.

On 1/30/2026 at 9:48 PM, Pyreaux said:

Prayer and fasting aren't about trying to 'force' God to change a pre-set plan. Instead, they are ways we participate in the living plan. God might be waiting for us to exercise our agency and faith together before intervening in the natural order. 

"Ye have not, because ye ask not." (James 4:2)

I agree with you here. But I think the action that God is waiting to do is changing our hearts; breaking us, humbling us, comforting us, yoking Himself with us. Because, in the end, the only decision that matters is whether or not we choose God to be our Father.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, JVW said:

Predestination is a synonym for foreordination.

Not really. There is a nuance that is important. Predestination is usually interpreted as something that will occur no matter what while foreordination is more something is appointed to occur, but people’s choice is still involved. 
 

Dan Peterson pointed out an interesting fact several years ago talking about a possible ‘plan B’ if Joseph Smith had not lived up to his foreordination.  Joseph Knight, Jr was in the same area living with his family headed by Joseph Knight, Sr….a family that were stalwarts in the faith.

Looks like he’s mentioned that more than once.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/revelations-in-context/the-knight-and-whitmer-families?lang=eng

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, JVW said:

Predestination is a synonym for foreordination.

Not really. There is a nuance that is important. Predestination is usually interpreted as something that will occur no matter what while foreordination is more something is appointed to occur, but people’s choice is still involved. 
 

Dan Peterson pointed out an interesting fact several years ago talking about a possible ‘plan B’ if Joseph Smith had not lived up to his foreordination.  Joseph Knight, Jr was in the same area living with his family headed by Joseph Knight, Sr….a family that were stalwarts in the faith.

Looks like he’s mentioned that more than once.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/revelations-in-context/the-knight-and-whitmer-families?lang=eng

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Not really. There is a nuance that is important. Predestination is usually interpreted as something that will occur no matter what while foreordination is more something is appointed to occur, but people’s choice is still involved. 
 

Dan Peterson pointed out an interesting fact several years ago talking about a possible ‘plan B’ if Joseph Smith had not lived up to his foreordination.  Joseph Knight, Jr was in the same area living with his family headed by Joseph Knight, Sr….a family that were stalwarts in the faith.

Looks like he’s mentioned that more than once.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/revelations-in-context/the-knight-and-whitmer-families?lang=eng

I said it was a synonym because of this https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/predestination?lang=eng

I've heard the "plan B" for Joseph thing before. I don't believe it. I believe that God foreordains people while taking into account their agency which means we still get moral agency and the foreordination is fulfilled without either one stepping on the other's toes.

ETA: I didn't expect a topic to go on a tangent trying to reconcile God's omniscience with human agency, but I'm totally here for it. What an interesting concept to explore!

Edited February 2 by JVW

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Not really. There is a nuance that is important. Predestination is usually interpreted as something that will occur no matter what while foreordination is more something is appointed to occur, but people’s choice is still involved. 
 

Dan Peterson pointed out an interesting fact several years ago talking about a possible ‘plan B’ if Joseph Smith had not lived up to his foreordination.  Joseph Knight, Jr was in the same area living with his family headed by Joseph Knight, Sr….a family that were stalwarts in the faith.

Looks like he’s mentioned that more than once.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/revelations-in-context/the-knight-and-whitmer-families?lang=eng

And if Plan B failed?

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And if Plan B failed?

Who knows?  Maybe Joseph was Plan B or Plan W even, humans being what we are.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Who knows?  Maybe Joseph was Plan B or Plan W even, humans being what we are.

But doesn’t that mean there is a possibility that every contingency could fail?

[Calm]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

But doesn’t that mean there is a possibility that every contingency could fail?

Until one works more or less. Isn’t that life in the mortal world?

I speculate that God trained and prepared those he foreordained so they would be capable of fulfilling his plan if they chose to do so while still leaving the choice up to them. I don’t see mortality as creating a completely different person even if there are heavy environmental and biological influences that get in the way of the eternal nature of our spirit manifesting fully, if much at all here.  So those he chose would be the most probable to be the type of people who desire what God desires even with a lot of noise overwhelming much of any spiritual communication going on as well as being capable of acting on those desires and so would choose to act on their foreordination even if they happen to lack the awareness to follow his instructions precisely.  So some stuff gets messed up, but not enough to totally derail the process.  Course corrections needed of course and made by God through inspiration/revelation (timing may not be immediate).

Tangent:  I would not be the least surprised if the “veil” that is placed on us is simply the limits of our human body.  God can step in and for a short time turn up the volume/brightness during visions, etc so to speak so we can receive more from the spirit side of our existence or he is simply skilled enough to be able to precisely target the receptors that mediate between the biological and the spiritual aspects of our being where typically spiritual sensations are more scatter shot, point to point or direct communication vs broadcast or diffuse communication.  I speculate we can also train ourselves to distinguish spirit stimuli from mundane stimuli that typical drowns out the other, just as a musician can pick out details of music much better than someone not trained.  Not sure how the Holy Ghost fits in to this speculation, perhaps being a spirit, when his presence overlaps ours, it increases receptivity.

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

But doesn’t that mean there is a possibility that every contingency could fail?

I don't personally believe that God has Plan B's, because I do believe that He is omniscient and doesn't need to hedge His bets, and He didn't seem to have a Plan B for the Atonement, which implies to me that He doesn't need to rely on contingency plans to ensure His will is done and His plan isn't frustrated.

But, if they do exist then I would think they would be more about preserving our agency than making sure His plan doesn't fail.  

[Calm]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

But, if they do exist then I would think they would be more about preserving our agency than making sure His plan doesn't fail.  

Yes, this is how I see it.  It might be one way to ensure options for agency.  That would be the only justification I can think of for a setup like that.

Though I should be clear, I am not the least committed to the idea of plan B’s. I wondered if it only occurred to Dan because of the coincidence of two Joseph Sr. and Jrs in the same area or if he already had the idea and he just made the possible connection later.  Added:  Dan never presents it as far as I am aware as anything but an interesting idea.  When I heard him say it (feels like eons ago), there was no sense of ‘I have been inspired’ or anything more than ‘fun idea here’ that I remember.

Agency isn’t about being able to make any choice whatsoever for me, it’s about being able to make choices that are true to oneself.  And I don’t see any way to get away from determinism in the sense that behaviour is predetermined by the kind of people we are, but it’s moral agency in my view if our behaviour is ultimately determined by our uncreated, ever existing self rather than others’ influences, even if our only true choice is to choose God.

I don’t see the multiple Josephs as that much of a coincidence given how common the name of Joseph was back then as well as the habit of using Sr and Jr.  Plan B is, imo, a fun idea to toss around, but certainly I wouldn’t suggest anyone should form their ideas about God around it.

Edited February 4 by Calm

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't personally believe that God has Plan B's, because I do believe that He is omniscient and doesn't need to hedge His bets, and He didn't seem to have a Plan B for the Atonement, which implies to me that He doesn't need to rely on contingency plans to ensure His will is done and His plan isn't frustrated.

But, if they do exist then I would think they would be more about preserving our agency than making sure His plan doesn't fail.  

I don’t believe there are contingencies if God has the attributes we ascribe to Him. There are hints in the D&C that point to contingencies existing though. I have no idea what to make of those.