Thoughts on new First Presidency?

[teddyaware]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

President Holland is the most senior apostle in the quorum of the 12 apostles.

I’m well aware of this fact. My point is that some members of the church fail to understand that the members of the First Presidency are also apostles. President Oaks is the most senior apostle and president of the church, while Jeffrey R Holland is the most senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think they only call an acting president when the actual president is in the first presidency. So Oaks was the actual president of the previous quorum of the 12 apostles but because he was in the first presidency, they called an acting president to fulfill those duties.

But there is no need for an acting president at this time because president Holland is the actual president. 

You're right, I had a brain fart. With Oaks becoming President of the Church that makes Holland the actual President of the 12.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

I’m well aware of this fact. My point is that some members of the church fail to understand that the members of the First Presidency are also apostles. President Oaks is the most senior apostle and president of the church, while Jeffrey R Holland is the most senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. 

I don’t think they fail to understand it, I think they just aren’t always very careful with their wording. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don’t think they fail to understand it, I think they just aren’t always very careful with their wording. 

Nonmembers can be confused when it turns out there are more than 12 apostles though in my experience.

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Nonmembers can be confused when it turns out there are more than 12 apostles though in my experience.

Definitely.  But teddy said this about members, and in response to JAHS post specifically.

Edited October 15, 2025 by bluebell

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

He does look old, but I meant tired. When the camera panned over to the new counselors elder hiring was looking a little out of it for the first few seconds.  

He has had that far away look for years. I think he "sees" more than most of us do and gets caught up in his thoughts. I believe that may be a reason he has remained in the FP for so long.

Edited October 15, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You're right, I had a brain fart. With Oaks becoming President of the Church that makes Holland the actual President of the 12.

Which means if the 93 year old Oaks doesn't have the Hinckley/Nelson longevity we could have President Holland in a few years.

But seriously, what medicine are they all taking to be that active into their 90s?  Just statistically how does such a small select group of men have such a high percentage living past 90? Age expectancy is still just under 80.

[ZealouslyStriving]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Which means if the 93 year old Oaks doesn't have the Hinckley/Nelson longevity we could have President Holland in a few years.

But seriously, what medicine are they all taking to be that active into their 90s?  Just statistically how does such a small select group of men have such a high percentage living past 90? Age expectancy is still just under 80.

Pres. Holland seems to be improving in health, so there is a good possibility.

[Calm]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Which means if the 93 year old Oaks doesn't have the Hinckley/Nelson longevity we could have President Holland in a few years.

But seriously, what medicine are they all taking to be that active into their 90s?  Just statistically how does such a small select group of men have such a high percentage living past 90? Age expectancy is still just under 80.

Healthy living, including staying active and have a deep meaningful purpose, knowing you are needed goes a long way to extending one’s life according to many studies.

They probably have very good healthcare as well.

Edited October 15, 2025 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Nonmembers can be confused when it turns out there are more than 12 apostles though in my experience.

Yep. We're told that Christ's Church had 12 Apostles, so does the restored church. But then we find out there are 15, and sometimes even more. I remember being told that Peter, James, and John were the first presidency, but then that left a quorum of the 9?

This isn't an argument that you are wrong. It's just an observation that, at least in the past, you maybe simplified things to make your church organization seem the same as the NT.

[ZealouslyStriving]

I just read somewhere that that highest calling Pres. Oaks held in the Church prior to becoming an Apostle was 1st Counselor in a Stake Presidency. So much for needing experience as a GA first, eh?

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I just read somewhere that that highest calling Pres. Oaks held in the Church prior to becoming an Apostle was 1st Counselor in a Stake Presidency. So much for needing experience as a GA first, eh?

He was President of BYU, so he did work for the Church for a time.

There aren’t any callings listed prior to being called as an apostle, so it is certainly possible, but I suspect one needs to be highly visible in some fashion and to have working relationships of some sort with upper church leaders, meaning mostly apostles and the First Presidency.  Reliability, trustworthiness, etc need to have been demonstrated.

Edited October 15, 2025 by Calm

[Damien the Leper]

Ok. Just so I don't have to go through all the posts... Who are the winners after Oaks?

[ZealouslyStriving]

13 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

Ok. Just so I don't have to go through all the posts... Who are the winners after Oaks?

Henry B. Eyring

D. Todd Christofferson 

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

He was President of BYU, so he did work for the Church for a time.

There aren’t any callings listed prior to being called as an apostle, so it is certainly possible, but I suspect one needs to be highly visible in some fashion and to have working relationships of some sort with upper church leaders, meaning mostly apostles and the First Presidency.  Reliability, trustworthiness, etc need to have been demonstrated.

he also was a Regional Representative

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Duncan said:

he also was a Regional Representative

That is what I get for skimming wiki rather than reading it.

Quote

During part of his time as BYU president, Oaks served as a regional representative, assigned to oversee some of the stakes in the Salt Lake Valley. After leaving BYU, Oaks conducted research and other assignments for the church's special affairs committee, headed by Gordon B. Hinckley, and overseeing public relations, government relations, and related matters.[79]

So a familiar face when called.

(not complaining here, I think it very, very wise when it comes to a calling one gets released from only by death or excommunication, it’s best to know this is someone you can work with from experience as well as inspiration)

Edited October 15, 2025 by Calm

[Benjamin McGuire]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

But seriously, what medicine are they all taking to be that active into their 90s?  Just statistically how does such a small select group of men have such a high percentage living past 90? Age expectancy is still just under 80.

Actually, statistically, this isn't that out of the ordinary. Since I work with geriatric populations, you could say that even though I work in what is often a palliative (end-of-life) setting, that the high percentage of people who are super old at our facility is not normal either. There are some things to remember. Life expectancy is always skewed. A third of men in the US, for example, will die by the age of 70. But once you get to 70 (we generally choose new apostles in that mid-60s to early 70s age range), your chances of making it to 85 are really very good. Those who are in poor health, or who have other obvious factors that would limit lifespan simply don't make it into that small group of apostles. The selection criteria has already created a group with a high chances of long lifespan.

And, while our apostles have largely been in their 80s and 90s when they died (at least in my lifetime), there are some notable exceptions: Richard L. Evans was 64. Harold B. Lee was 74. Alvin R. Dyer was 74. Marvin J. Ashton was 79. Bruce R. McConkie was 70. Neal A. Maxwell was 78. But these are exceptions. Mormons (and Mormon leaders) tend to live healthy lifestyles. And of course, they get great medical care and have constant good social interactions. If we look at the statistical factors for older Americans that we know from research correlate with earlier death, we see a number of things that are relevant. The biggest factors that reduce longevity are high BMI, being unmarried, current and past smoking, high alcohol consumption, and low physical activity. When we look at apostles, they tend to never have smoked, the generally have good BMI, they don't smoke or drink, and they generally remain active until very late in life.

[Benjamin McGuire]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I just read somewhere that that highest calling Pres. Oaks held in the Church prior to becoming an Apostle was 1st Counselor in a Stake Presidency. So much for needing experience as a GA first, eh?

This would be incorrect. President Oaks followed a different path is all. He was President of BYU for nearly a decade (1971-1980). Generally speaking, this would actually be considered parallel to or a little above a Mission President (perhaps even above the current area 70s). His ten years there (mission presidents are called for 3 and are usually chosen from Stake Presidents and their counselors) would provide not only extensive experience working with the Quorum of the Twelve, but regular contact with them in his role. His time as a Supreme Court Justice (he would likely have stayed there if not called as an apostle) was also appealing to then First Presidency, and is reflected in his assignments as an apostle. So, I would argue that while his route to General Authority was a little less traditional, it wasn't out of the blue.

Edited October 15, 2025 by Benjamin McGuire

[ZealouslyStriving]

🤦🏻‍♂️ Again, my comments are being misrepresented.

I was merely musing on the idea that some have that someone needs GA experience to become an Apostle- as the comment has been made that Elder Brown is too new to the 70 to become an Apostle.

I was not saying that callings can just be some random dude that no one has ever interacted with. Of course they have to have some level of responsibility that puts them in touch with Church leaders- how else would anyone know them to make the recommendation for consideration???

 

[Nofear]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don’t think they fail to understand it, I think they just aren’t always very careful with their wording. 

Something that may not rise to awareness is that the First Presidency is a priesthood quorum (D&C 107:22). The bishopric isn't a quorum (bishop is president of the priest's quorum). Stake presidency isn't a quorum (stake president is president of the high priest's quorum). But the First Presidency is a quorum in of itself.

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Actually, statistically, this isn't that out of the ordinary. ...

These are the actuarial tables for the US of continued life expectancy as one ages. No time to run the probabilities of a group of 12 males all living from 80 to 90 (but that's not what we have exactly either). I suspect it won't be all that high.

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

Something that may not rise to awareness is that the First Presidency is a priesthood quorum (D&C 107:22). The bishopric isn't a quorum (bishop is president of the priest's quorum). Stake presidency isn't a quorum (stake president is president of the high priest's quorum). But the First Presidency is a quorum in of itself.

That is something I never realized, thank you for explaining it!  

[Tacenda]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

I did not know this…or had forgotten, hard to tell these days, lol:

Wiki

I wonder if they have already run out of reminiscences to share…

Got to say I am feeling a bit younger at the moment because Oaks was already a law clerk the year I was born. 

The apostles longevity is amazing right? And you're young Calm! We ain't old, haha!!

[Duncan]

If there ever was a "random dude" called to the Apostleship it was Howard W. Hunter. Wasn't from Utah, no connection to BYU, never served a mission, wasn't a mission president,wasn't a Seventy. He was a lawyer from Los Angeles, Stake President like a thousand others. He was on some Welfare committee for the Los Angeles area but nothing really out of the ordinary

 

Edited October 15, 2025 by Duncan

[JAHS]

Historian Ben Parks opinion on the new First Presidency selection:
Benjamin Parks