I believe

[MustardSeed]

There’s a big difference between “this is what I believe (or feel or think)” and “what I believe is what you should believe”. 
 

In 2025, what is your perception of how the church leaders want us to express our beliefs?

 

 

[webbles]

The former?  I don't think I've ever heard the later as a valid way to express beliefs.  If it has been done, I never understood it that way.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

There’s a big difference between “this is what I believe (or feel or think)” and “what I believe is what you should believe”. 
 

In 2025, what is your perception of how the church leaders want us to express our beliefs?

 

 

I think my bias is too strong.  Even if I heard “what I believe is what you should believe”, my memory will rewrite it to “this is what I believe” if there is any way to work it.   
 

I did do a Google search on “what you should believe” just to see if such language was used on the Church website, though my guess is if that was the message, it would be typically more implied than outright.  Nothing came up for the exact phrase, so I did “should believe”.  There are several scriptures that popped up first and then some “should believe” did show up, including in persuasion.  I do think the latter message could be inferred, but the focus of “should believe” seems more to me because of what the message is teaching—a belief in prophets, in being a child of God—and not who is teaching it, others should believe because that’s what I, a leader, the Church, etc believes.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2020/04/youth/what-do-you-say-when-your-friends-dont-believe-that-things-like-the-first-vision-could-happen?lang=eng

Quote

Ask your friends to study the Bible. If they believe in it as the word of God, then they should believe that God does speak to us today by visions such as the First Vision because He did the same with Adam, Moses, Isaiah, and other prophets in many different ways.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2023/03/afc-eng-local-pages/local-news-002?lang=eng

Quote

“Please pray for me,” the woman persisted, but I felt prompted by the Spirit of the Lord to cautiously decline. Instead, I urged her to turn to our Heavenly Father, assuring her that she was His beloved daughter, that He knew her and wanted the best for her, and that she should believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/spirit-can-guide-all-aspects-of-life-elder-scott-says?lang=eng

Quote

We Should Believe

Elder Scott taught that we should believe that the Lord wants to inspire us through the Holy Ghost and that we need to be confident in His ability to do so. He said that we’ll gain confidence in recognizing the Spirit as we follow the promptings we receive and observe the results. When action is required and we’re still uncertain what to do, he said, begin to act and “the Spirit will prompt you if you’re on the wrong path.”

 

Edited September 13, 2025 by Calm

[GoCeltics]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

There’s a big difference between “this is what I believe (or feel or think)” and “what I believe is what you should believe”. 
 

In 2025, what is your perception of how the church leaders want us to express our beliefs?

 

 

I saw this YT video by Nemo the Mormon. It’s more “I know” than “I believe”.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

I saw this YT video by Nemo the Mormon. It’s more “I know” than “I believe”.

I’d rather hear I know than to hear “I believe and so should you.”

[MustardSeed]

Does a religion that leans into proselytizing as much as we do imply the latter? 
 

it always has to me.  But I’m also open to change.  If most people don’t see it that way maybe I have been incorrect in my interpretation. 

[Tacenda]

I've seen the "I know" approach to maybe testify more firmly. 

[Senator]

52 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Does a religion that leans into proselytizing as much as we do imply the latter? 
 

it always has to me.  But I’m also open to change.  If most people don’t see it that way maybe I have been incorrect in my interpretation. 

Our message is that everyone eventually must believe as we believe, if they wish to receive all that God has. “Should” is too soft

[webbles]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Does a religion that leans into proselytizing as much as we do imply the latter? 
 

it always has to me.  But I’m also open to change.  If most people don’t see it that way maybe I have been incorrect in my interpretation. 

 

19 minutes ago, Senator said:

Our message is that everyone eventually must believe as we believe, if they wish to receive all that God has. “Should” is too soft

Maybe a different way of expressing it is "what I believe is the truth and so at some point you will believe it is true as well"?  But I don't think "what I believe is what you should believe" or "what I believe is what you must believe" has the same meaning to that.  Those feel like I'm pushing my beliefs on them while it is more of we want them to learn it of themselves.

[Senator]

12 minutes ago, webbles said:

 

  But I don't think "what I believe is what you should believe" or "what I believe is what you must believe" has the same meaning to that. 

Actually it kind of does in my estimation 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Does a religion that leans into proselytizing as much as we do imply the latter? 
 

it always has to me.  But I’m also open to change.  If most people don’t see it that way maybe I have been incorrect in my interpretation. 

Depends on what is attached to “you should to” imo.  If by this you mean “you should too because any reasonable person would accept this belief” or the shorter version “be stupid not to believe”, I don’t believe that is what is intended to be implied by proselytizing by most doing it (though most missionaries are young and that tends to push arrogance higher in my experience, but also drops confidence, so maybe it balances out).

I think there is an implied and even explicit “you should too” because it’s a better life (or so many believe and I do too speaking generally, but not individually and in the end individually matters more to me in missionary work, so I love that we are spreading out across the world into every niche and cranny and I am grateful when we are gentle and welcoming of disagreement rather than aggressive in our reaching out).

Edited September 13, 2025 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

I can’t help but relate to those who feel we come across in a way that forces defensiveness from them.  
 

When it comes to po li tix and people expressing themselves in a way that suggests that there is only way way to think, it makes me want to operate completely differently in every aspect of my life.  When I was a kid, I honestly believed that I was favored of God because I was a member of his only true church and everybody else was lost. I of course, do not feel that way now. But I don’t know if it’s because I’m rebellious or if it’s because I’m just more emotionally and spiritually intelligent than I was before. 
 

Anybody who attaches themselves to a theology or a religion or a dogma or a pol I tical position and states it in such a way that suggests that I am less than or immoral or stupid or what have you is off putting to me. I never wanna be that guy. But I think I am sometimes.

Edited September 13, 2025 by MustardSeed

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Senator said:

Actually it kind of does in my estimation 

If by this you mean we are saying “we have something that will help you have a better life”, I would agree with you.

If by this you mean “we have something you must believe to be fully saved by Christ”, I would insist on adding “eventually” and would point out by “fully saved” we are saying we believe in the Celestial Kingdom and living with God the Father and Christ there as the most desirable, while recognizing that some won’t desire to do so even after learning about the gospel (never if not believing in progression between kingdoms and ‘not at first’ for those who do).

If by this you mean “if you don’t, your life is going to end up in the crapper” or “if you don’t, you are wrong! wrong! wrong!”, I would disagree as I don’t see the first as doctrinal and don’t see the second as aligning with our beliefs about faith.

There are quite a few ways to dissect “should believe” and I don’t think in every case it works with the traditional LDS view or at least the one I was exposed to early at Church (less at home) and there are less that work with actual doctrine imo (because I interpret doctrine as allowing for progression between kingdoms and making it clear God doesn’t close doors).

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I can’t help but relate to those who feel we come across in a way that forces defensiveness from them.  
 

In the vast majority of cases, we require them to leave beliefs and ideas, often behaviours behind them, so why wouldn’t people be defensive if they actually consider it?  It’s change.  Sometimes massive and often painful change. And much loss.

Change can be good, but it’s not inherently good, so it’s wise for our brains and hearts to automatically challenge the push for change as well as being open to it.  I think a balance of openness and defensiveness is healthy.  As long as we don’t let defensiveness shut down communication and exploration of new ideas…

If they are just sitting having a nice discussion, but not opening their mind to being a member, it’s just a topic for discussion, no need for defensiveness, but this is not what missionaries are hoping for.

We should have a lot more respect for converts and not just be excited for them to join our community, but mourn with them as well if applicable imo.

Edited September 13, 2025 by Calm

[Senator]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would insist on adding “eventually”

I did.  See my original post.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Senator said:

I did.  See my original post.

I missed that somehow (the whole post).  I felt a bit foolish when I finally noticed, but too late…

Edited September 13, 2025 by Calm

[Senator]

Are missionaries encouraged to use “I believe “ language in their testifying?

[blackstrap]

"  every knee shall bow and every tongue confess "   . Does not that mean  ' will/ must ' ? 

Eventually,  sure.  Is , " the sooner the better " implied ?  

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Does a religion that leans into proselytizing as much as we do imply the latter? 
 

it always has to me.  But I’m also open to change.  If most people don’t see it that way maybe I have been incorrect in my interpretation. 

Yes. From the perspective of a friend, yes,yes, and yes again.

[Tony uk]

I believe what I know, and I know what I believe. Confusing I know, but the opening remark, somehow, had made sense to me over the years. Imo, the more we come into contact with others, the more our life experience develops, and from there, this helps with our knowledge building, and in turn how our beliefs develop.

Coming to this board, I hoped to develop my my own belief in Christianity. Also to gain a larger understanding of LdS which is happening. I have never felt pressured by anyone here. And also, no pressure from any missionaries that I have come into contact. When people join a Church, LdS, RC or any Church I expect there will an expectation that the new member accepts the ways and specific teachings of the Church they are joining.

Edited September 14, 2025 by Tony uk
Spelling correction.

[CV75]

I think "normal and natural ways" allows either depending on a variety of factors that are conducive to inspiration and the Spirit witnessing to the one needing it. They teach "normal and natural," "love-share-invite," and other peaceable ways https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/serve/share?lang=eng

[Amulek]

On 9/13/2025 at 4:41 PM, MustardSeed said:

Does a religion that leans into proselytizing as much as we do imply the latter? 

it always has to me.  But I’m also open to change.  If most people don’t see it that way maybe I have been incorrect in my interpretation. 

For me, I’ve come to think of it less as “what I believe is what you should believe” and more along the lines of “this is what I believe, and here’s why it matters to me.”

The church definitely encourages us to share, but I don’t think that has to mean pushing. When something has brought me peace, hope, or joy, it feels natural to want to talk about it - just like I would talk about anything else that’s been a blessing in my life. Honestly, it’s the same impulse that makes me want to tell everyone about that new authentic Italian restaurant I ran across the other day that makes its noodles from scratch daily. To me, that’s just part of being a good friend.

I’ve noticed that leaders in recent years put more emphasis on inviting and testifying rather than pressuring. An invitation can be freely accepted or declined, but the act of sharing still communicates care.

So, I see proselytizing less as “this is what you must do” and more as “this has blessed me so much that I want you to know it exists - if you ever want it for yourself.”

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

I see proselytizing less as “this is what you must do” and more as “this has blessed me so much that I want you to know it exists - if you ever want it for yourself.”

 

This is how it feels for me as well.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

For me, I’ve come to think of it less as “what I believe is what you should believe” and more along the lines of “this is what I believe, and here’s why it matters to me.”

The church definitely encourages us to share, but I don’t think that has to mean pushing. When something has brought me peace, hope, or joy, it feels natural to want to talk about it - just like I would talk about anything else that’s been a blessing in my life. Honestly, it’s the same impulse that makes me want to tell everyone about that new authentic Italian restaurant I ran across the other day that makes its noodles from scratch daily. To me, that’s just part of being a good friend.

I’ve noticed that leaders in recent years put more emphasis on inviting and testifying rather than pressuring. An invitation can be freely accepted or declined, but the act of sharing still communicates care.

So, I see proselytizing less as “this is what you must do” and more as “this has blessed me so much that I want you to know it exists - if you ever want it for yourself.”

 

I spent the last two days trying to figure out a way to post this exact sentiment, and I could not think of a way to put it into words. So I just decided not to post at all. But yes!  Thank you for saying it in a way that I could not.

[Navidad]

I can only speak for and about myself. ere is how I have experienced LDS proselytizing and beliefs. All are quotes:

Your wife is godly but does not have the Gift of the Holy Spirit and cannot until she joins the church

Your baptism was not valid in form, method, or manner. You cannot receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit until you experience our baptism which is the only baptism that is pleasing to Christ.

Christians are ------- pick your choice of negative generalizations and normalizations. . . . . 

The LDS are victims of systematic innocent persecution

You are not spiritually qualified to minister in a manner approved of band pleasing to Christ until you join our church

The only spiritual authority recognized by Christ is found in our church

Your baptism was not pleasing to, nor is it accepted by Heavenly Father.   This is based on no knowledge of my baptism except that it was not administered by a LDS elder.

The LDS church is the only living church approved of by Christ.      I could go on and on