God Is Mean

[JVW]

Hi everyone. I haven't been around lately because I was getting to distracted from working and had the network admin block the site from my work computer. Anyways ... onto the discussion topic.

Several nights ago I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No". His response kind of broke me a little. I got really angry with God because I rarely ask Him for anything and I've recently decided to start a path to return to the temple as I strive to get a good relationship with Him again.

As I've reflected on my walk with God, it's ups and downs since I met Him in my early twenties, I've come to realize something. The more effort I make to get close to God, the more mean He is to me. I was reminded of this verse in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 3:19), "...willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to INFLICT upon him..."

I decided to express my anger to God and study the scriptures to see if He'd communicate anything to me, and He did. Right after the garden suffering, when Jesus is being arrested ... John 18:11, "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" Jesus was sinless, blameless, compassionate, and loving. And God gave Him a cup filled to the brim with the most potent poison. Talk about being mean! If I am trying to follow Jesus, of course I should be expected to drink a similar cup, with poison tailored for me.

So here is my question. Do I really want to walk the path of Christianity if God is going to treat me like this if I intentionally choose to follow Him? What are the pro's and con's? I know that life will involve suffering whether or not I choose to follow Jesus, but why would I want to experience additional God-given suffering when I could just ignore God and deal with regular stuff instead? Hopefully this post makes sense and I look forward to learning from y'all about this topic.

[rpn]

I don't see this as I put in a dime and get a firecracker.    And I'm not sure He can make a baby shut up and go to sleep ---- seems to me that is part of the baby's body, and the temp of the home, and what they ate and when and a whole lot of things other things that are just part of any earthly journey.

I'd be working on my own patience with that child because with that, I can manage most things.

[JVW]

21 minutes ago, rpn said:

I don't see this as I put in a dime and get a firecracker.    And I'm not sure He can make a baby shut up and go to sleep ---- seems to me that is part of the baby's body, and the temp of the home, and what they ate and when and a whole lot of things other things that are just part of any earthly journey.

I'd be working on my own patience with that child because with that, I can manage most things.

The crying baby story was the context. I don't have any issues currently with my crying baby or being woken up in the middle of the night. It was just that one particular moment for some reason. I don't want to talk about crying babies in this thread. My thread wasn't entitle "Crying Babies" it was called "God is Mean". I want to hear from you about that.

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, JVW said:

Hi everyone. I haven't been around lately because I was getting to distracted from working and had the network admin block the site from my work computer. Anyways ... onto the discussion topic.

Several nights ago I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No". His response kind of broke me a little. I got really angry with God because I rarely ask Him for anything and I've recently decided to start a path to return to the temple as I strive to get a good relationship with Him again.

As I've reflected on my walk with God, it's ups and downs since I met Him in my early twenties, I've come to realize something. The more effort I make to get close to God, the more mean He is to me. I was reminded of this verse in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 3:19), "...willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to INFLICT upon him..."

I decided to express my anger to God and study the scriptures to see if He'd communicate anything to me, and He did. Right after the garden suffering, when Jesus is being arrested ... John 18:11, "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" Jesus was sinless, blameless, compassionate, and loving. And God gave Him a cup filled to the brim with the most potent poison. Talk about being mean! If I am trying to follow Jesus, of course I should be expected to drink a similar cup, with poison tailored for me.

So here is my question. Do I really want to walk the path of Christianity if God is going to treat me like this if I intentionally choose to follow Him? What are the pro's and con's? I know that life will involve suffering whether or not I choose to follow Jesus, but why would I want to experience additional God-given suffering when I could just ignore God and deal with regular stuff instead? Hopefully this post makes sense and I look forward to learning from y'all about this topic.

This is a fight that God and I have had quite a few times over the years. I’ve wrestled with the topic a lot, and had many moments of being very resentful of God, and then gratefully many more moments where He walked with me through that and brought me out the other side, to an understanding I didn’t see coming.  But it’s a dance that we will probably do again I think.  It’s a weakness that I doubt I will ever completely overcome in this mortal life.

So having shared where I’m coming from, I think the answer to your question idepends on what kind of person you want to be at the end. And I don’t mean that flippantly I mean it sincerely.

I don’t know if you are a Lord of the rings fan, but I think the books are some of the best literature ever written. And the movies are pretty good too. Recently, I’ve been re-watching the movies with my 11-year-old daughter. If you’re at all familiar with the story, then you know of the transformation that Pippin and Merry go through over the course of the story. They start out as two good natured, good hearted yet immature young hobbits who are full of mischief. They have a lot of loyalty, but very little skill or brains to be able to do anyone much good. And in the end, they are warriors whose courage, choices, and sacrifices help turn the tide and ultimately save all the people that they love.

The difference between them at the beginning and them at the end is of course everything that they have to go through in the middle. And they go through some very, very hard, dark stuff. And they are tested, and tried, and they fail a few times, but never give up.

I was watching the second movie and it occurred to me very strongly that there was absolutely no way for Merry and Pippen (and all the other characters too) to become the amazing beings that they eventually become without going through all that they went through. That kind of fundamental change is not one that anyone can decide to make, even if they really really wanted to. It would be like a caterpillar trying become a butterfly by skipping the cocoon stage.  Just not possible.  Agency and desire alone can’t do it.

It seems pretty clear that the same is true for us.  There are some changes that are not possible without the growth and knowledge that comes from hardship and sorrow. If we want to go from a Pippin at the beginning of the book to a Pippin at the end of the book, then we have to be willing to go through the same kind of stuff that Pippin went through in the middle of the book.  If we’re happy to stay a Pippin-at-the-beginning-of-the-book sort, then there is no need for all of the suffering in the middle and we can choose the easier path with no regrets.  There will still be sorrow and suffering, because that is how life works. There will still be growth. It just won’t be of the same level.

So from my perspective, I think you just have to decide what your goal is. Who are you trying to be at the end?

[JVW]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is a fight that God and I have had quite a few times over the years. I’ve wrestled with the topic a lot, and had many moments of being very resentful of God, and then gratefully many more moments where He walked with me through that and brought me out the other side, to an understanding I didn’t see coming.  But it’s a dance that we will probably do again I think.  It’s a weakness that I doubt I will ever completely overcome in this mortal life.

So having shared where I’m coming from, I think the answer to your question idepends on what kind of person you want to be at the end. And I don’t mean that flippantly I mean it sincerely.

I don’t know if you are a Lord of the rings fan, but I think the books are some of the best literature ever written. And the movies are pretty good too. Recently, I’ve been re-watching the movies with my 11-year-old daughter. If you’re at all familiar with the story, then you know of the transformation that Pippin and Merry go through over the course of the story. They start out as two good natured, good hearted yet immature young hobbits who are full of mischief. They have a lot of loyalty, but very little skill or brains to be able to do anyone much good. And in the end, they are warriors whose courage, choices, and sacrifices help turn the tide and ultimately save all the people that they love.

The difference between them at the beginning and them at the end is of course everything that they have to go through in the middle. And they go through some very, very hard, dark stuff. And they are tested, and tried, and they fail a few times, but never give up.

I was watching the second movie and it occurred to me very strongly that there was absolutely no way for Merry and Pippen (and all the other characters too) to become the amazing beings that they eventually become without going through all that they went through. That kind of fundamental change is not one that anyone can decide to make, even if they really really wanted to. It would be like a caterpillar trying become a butterfly by skipping the cocoon stage.  Just not possible.  Agency and desire alone can’t do it.

It seems pretty clear that the same is true for us.  There are some changes that are not possible without the growth and knowledge that comes from hardship and sorrow. If we want to go from a Pippin at the beginning of the book to a Pippin at the end of the book, then we have to be willing to go through the same kind of stuff that Pippin went through in the middle of the book.  If we’re happy to stay a Pippin-at-the-beginning-of-the-book sort, then there is no need for all of the suffering in the middle and we can choose the easier path with no regrets.  There will still be sorrow and suffering, because that is how life works. There will still be growth. It just won’t be of the same level.

So from my perspective, I think you just have to decide what your goal is. Who are you trying to be at the end?

Well, that sucks.

I'll think on what you've said but you are making a lot of sense to me. I'm also reminded of Ender's Game where the commanding officer does everything in his power to make Ender's life a living hell in order to build him into the commander he needs in order to save humanity.

But on the other hand, wouldn't you think that, perhaps, life already has enough hard stuff and instead God would just be supportive and help you feel peaceful and happy all the time through the hard times?

[Senator]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is a fight that God and I have had quite a few times over the years. I’ve wrestled with the topic a lot, and had many moments of being very resentful of God, and then gratefully many more moments where He walked with me through that and brought me out the other side, to an understanding I didn’t see coming.  But it’s a dance that we will probably do again I think.  It’s a weakness that I doubt I will ever completely overcome in this mortal life.

So having shared where I’m coming from, I think the answer to your question idepends on what kind of person you want to be at the end. And I don’t mean that flippantly I mean it sincerely.

I don’t know if you are a Lord of the rings fan, but I think the books are some of the best literature ever written. And the movies are pretty good too. Recently, I’ve been re-watching the movies with my 11-year-old daughter. If you’re at all familiar with the story, then you know of the transformation that Pippin and Merry go through over the course of the story. They start out as two good natured, good hearted yet immature young hobbits who are full of mischief. They have a lot of loyalty, but very little skill or brains to be able to do anyone much good. And in the end, they are warriors whose courage, choices, and sacrifices help turn the tide and ultimately save all the people that they love.

The difference between them at the beginning and them at the end is of course everything that they have to go through in the middle. And they go through some very, very hard, dark stuff. And they are tested, and tried, and they fail a few times, but never give up.

I was watching the second movie and it occurred to me very strongly that there was absolutely no way for Merry and Pippen (and all the other characters too) to become the amazing beings that they eventually become without going through all that they went through. That kind of fundamental change is not one that anyone can decide to make, even if they really really wanted to. It would be like a caterpillar trying become a butterfly by skipping the cocoon stage.  Just not possible.  Agency and desire alone can’t do it.

It seems pretty clear that the same is true for us.  There are some changes that are not possible without the growth and knowledge that comes from hardship and sorrow. If we want to go from a Pippin at the beginning of the book to a Pippin at the end of the book, then we have to be willing to go through the same kind of stuff that Pippin went through in the middle of the book.  If we’re happy to stay a Pippin-at-the-beginning-of-the-book sort, then there is no need for all of the suffering in the middle and we can choose the easier path with no regrets.  There will still be sorrow and suffering, because that is how life works. There will still be growth. It just won’t be of the same level.

So from my perspective, I think you just have to decide what your goal is. Who are you trying to be at the end?

Geez, you should write a book!

 I would read it.

[The Nehor]

God likes suffering. It seems to be His favorite tool.

[JVW]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

God likes suffering. It seems to be His favorite tool.

Yeah lately when people ask me "Why do bad things happen to good people?" My (serious, not joking) answer is now, "Because God loves them."

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

Hi everyone. I haven't been around lately because I was getting to distracted from working and had the network admin block the site from my work computer. Anyways ... onto the discussion topic.

Several nights ago I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No". His response kind of broke me a little. I got really angry with God because I rarely ask Him for anything and I've recently decided to start a path to return to the temple as I strive to get a good relationship with Him again.

As I've reflected on my walk with God, it's ups and downs since I met Him in my early twenties, I've come to realize something. The more effort I make to get close to God, the more mean He is to me. I was reminded of this verse in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 3:19), "...willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to INFLICT upon him..."

I decided to express my anger to God and study the scriptures to see if He'd communicate anything to me, and He did. Right after the garden suffering, when Jesus is being arrested ... John 18:11, "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" Jesus was sinless, blameless, compassionate, and loving. And God gave Him a cup filled to the brim with the most potent poison. Talk about being mean! If I am trying to follow Jesus, of course I should be expected to drink a similar cup, with poison tailored for me.

So here is my question. Do I really want to walk the path of Christianity if God is going to treat me like this if I intentionally choose to follow Him? What are the pro's and con's? I know that life will involve suffering whether or not I choose to follow Jesus, but why would I want to experience additional God-given suffering when I could just ignore God and deal with regular stuff instead? Hopefully this post makes sense and I look forward to learning from y'all about this topic.

I think a good relationship with God is developed by realizing what we (and the Father!) are asking of Him: personal, infinite and eternal suffering for the negative consequences of our choices so that we can be free to pursue the positive consequences as joint-heirs with Him and all the family of God. This brings about a broken heart and contrite spirit which renders any suffering worth keeping a covenant relationship with Him.

His suffering was no easier to handle than it is be for us, plus He suffers the infinite and eternal consequences which we cannot begin to comprehend. But we do taste the liberation and glory when He extends mercy, grace, repentance and forgiveness.

Regarding the use of the word “inflict,” the three Nephites, who presumably enjoyed an advanced relationship with Christ, still suffered pain and sorrow for the sins of the world (3 Nephi 28:38). Knowing how Christ suffered and still weeps for these which have been inflicted upon Him, this is a particularly severe kind of suffering; all other kinds pale in comparison. He asks of us only what He does. So, there is the blessing in walking the path of glory and infliction. This is what enhances a broken heart and a contrite spirit in unity with Christ, and the attendant joy is surpassing.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

Hi everyone. I haven't been around lately because I was getting to distracted from working and had the network admin block the site from my work computer. Anyways ... onto the discussion topic.

Several nights ago I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No". His response kind of broke me a little. I got really angry with God because I rarely ask Him for anything and I've recently decided to start a path to return to the temple as I strive to get a good relationship with Him again.

As I've reflected on my walk with God, it's ups and downs since I met Him in my early twenties, I've come to realize something. The more effort I make to get close to God, the more mean He is to me. I was reminded of this verse in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 3:19), "...willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to INFLICT upon him..."

I decided to express my anger to God and study the scriptures to see if He'd communicate anything to me, and He did. Right after the garden suffering, when Jesus is being arrested ... John 18:11, "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" Jesus was sinless, blameless, compassionate, and loving. And God gave Him a cup filled to the brim with the most potent poison. Talk about being mean! If I am trying to follow Jesus, of course I should be expected to drink a similar cup, with poison tailored for me.

So here is my question. Do I really want to walk the path of Christianity if God is going to treat me like this if I intentionally choose to follow Him? What are the pro's and con's? I know that life will involve suffering whether or not I choose to follow Jesus, but why would I want to experience additional God-given suffering when I could just ignore God and deal with regular stuff instead? Hopefully this post makes sense and I look forward to learning from y'all about this topic.

I hate the idea of just throwing out a scripture in answer to a question like this, but I think Hebrews chapter 12 provides insight into this question in a very beautiful way.

This is Hebrews 12:1-11 using the New KJV translation (since it irons out some of the archaic language and flows a little better):

1. Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares [us], and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 
2. looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of [our] faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 
3. For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 
4. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 
5. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 
6. For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." (Proverbs 3:11-12)
7. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 
8. But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 
9. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected [us], and we paid [them] respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 
10. For they indeed for a few days chastened [us] as seemed [best] to them, but He for [our] profit, that [we] may be partakers of His holiness. 
11. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

I see these verses conveying the love of our heavenly Father and his desire to make something more of us in our walk of life, and he sent his Son to provide the atonement and to help us through the hard times. And, verse 11 sums it all up.

[blackstrap]

35 minutes ago, JVW said:

Yeah lately when people ask me "Why do bad things happen to good people?" My (serious, not joking) answer is now, "Because God loves them."

Is this the same answer for " why do good things happen to bad people ? "

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Is this the same answer for " why do good things happen to bad people ? "

Because God has given up on them changing so what is the point of suffering that won’t “help”?

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think a good relationship with God is developed by realizing what we (and the Father!) are asking of Him: personal, infinite and eternal suffering for the negative consequences of our choices so that we can be free to pursue the positive consequences as joint-heirs with Him and all the family of God. This brings about a broken heart and contrite spirit which renders any suffering worth keeping a covenant relationship with Him.

His suffering was no easier to handle than it is be for us, plus He suffers the infinite and eternal consequences which we cannot begin to comprehend. But we do taste the liberation and glory when He extends mercy, grace, repentance and forgiveness.

Regarding the use of the word “inflict,” the three Nephites, who presumably enjoyed an advanced relationship with Christ, still suffered pain and sorrow for the sins of the world (3 Nephi 28:38). Knowing how Christ suffered and still weeps for these which have been inflicted upon Him, this is a particularly severe kind of suffering; all other kinds pale in comparison. He asks of us only what He does. So, there is the blessing in walking the path of glory and infliction. This is what enhances a broken heart and a contrite spirit in unity with Christ, and the attendant joy is surpassing.

So why don’t we call it the Plan of Suffering?

[JVW]

11 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Is this the same answer for " why do good things happen to bad people ? "

Nobody asks that question.

[JVW]

27 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I hate the idea of just throwing out a scripture in answer to a question like this, but I think Hebrews chapter 12 provides insight into this question in a very beautiful way.

This is Hebrews 12:1-11 using the New KJV translation (since it irons out some of the archaic language and flows a little better):

1. Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares [us], and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 
2. looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of [our] faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 
3. For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 
4. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 
5. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 
6. For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." (Proverbs 3:11-12)
7. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 
8. But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 
9. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected [us], and we paid [them] respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 
10. For they indeed for a few days chastened [us] as seemed [best] to them, but He for [our] profit, that [we] may be partakers of His holiness. 
11. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

I see these verses conveying the love of our heavenly Father and his desire to make something more of us in our walk of life, and he sent his Son to provide the atonement and to help us through the hard times. And, verse 11 sums it all up.

That is a beautiful chapter and hits directly at the heart of the matter. "And scourges every son whom He receives" indeed. I wish I recognized this earlier, I would have been a little more thoughtful about my decision to initially commit myself to God. Nevertheless, I'm here now learning about this and definitely have some thinking to do on it. I know that God is love, but I don't know if I want to have a relationship with someone who will scourge me lol.

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So why don’t we call it the Plan of Suffering?

Because suffering is only a step in the process. Whatever Christ did to fully experience it and then turn it inside out for the fulness of happiness is the end of the process.

I think faith helps us see, feel and act upon this glorious future even though we are in the midst of the knowledge of a painful past and present.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Because suffering is only a step in the process. Whatever Christ did to fully experience it and then turn it inside out for the fulness of happiness is the end of the process.

I think faith helps us see, feel and act upon this glorious future even though we are in the midst of the knowledge of a painful past and present.

And probably a painful future. I haven’t seen anything that convinces me that death will stop the pain.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Several nights ago I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No". His response kind of broke me a little. I got really angry with God because I rarely ask Him for anything and I've recently decided to start a path to return to the temple as I strive to get a good relationship with Him again.

Have you considered the “No” was because your baby’s needs at that moment were more crucial to her personal development than you getting the rest you needed was crucial to yours?  I know you said this isn’t about the crying baby, but I can’t explain my thought well without using that example.  Skip to the very end if you really don’t want to explore the idea this way as I do manage a brief one liner summary.

As a child, I was apparently very easy to manage.  My mother told me I would be happy in my crib by myself for hours, which she considered a great blessing to her and the family because my two older siblings were more difficult.  She used to tell me that a lot as a child, to the point I believe it became a part of my identity…I was never the one who caused trouble or sought help in the family, I became the one others appealed to when they were in trouble.  And this got embedded in people’s minds so deeply that when I did reach out when I finally felt like we were drowning (when my daughter was diagnosed with diabetes and my husband plunged into depression because he couldn’t protect her from it), that not only didn’t I get a “what can we do to help” response from my parents, I got a “you need to reach out to your sister because she’s struggling right now” ending.  I got off the phone thinking “what just happened?”.  It wasn’t until I was in my 50s that I saw that time spent alone in the crib not as me just being happy to be left to myself, but possibly me often making do with being left alone because I had accepted others weren’t concerned with me in some infantile fashion when I would have been better served by having comfort and support from another.  Once I reframed that early experience as not purely positive, I started to make connections to not only strengths, but weaknesses I had always wondered about since they are very incongruent with parts of my personality, some weaknesses being very significant imo…such as desiring physical contact with others but not being able to benefit much from it (I love the idea of of being hugged, but feel uncomfortable getting them and I only naturally give them as ways to help others, though recently I have started to ask for them and am working on trying to be just there in the moment rather than jumping to what I need to do next in my head).

The highly valued “independence” attribute in me shows up in other ways besides not being able to clearly communicate my needs, such what I called “terminal shyness “ as a child because I didn’t believe anyone wanted me there (as in lack of interest rather than active dislike) and being unable to work in teams as if I struggle with not understanding what my role is supposed to be with others, I can’t negotiate with them to reach an understanding because I work off of the assumption I need to do something myself rather than actual communication with others to find out what is really needed because I can’t push for answers. 

 Obviously these and other attributes were laid down by much more than just one night’s self soothing rather than comfort by a parent, but there was a moment when the first neurons that contributed to that pattern of thinking in me was put in place in my brain and therefore made it easier in the future for my brain to think/feel “I am on my own” and therefore baby me to more quickly give up reaching out and therefore baby me was that much less likely to get any response that would counteract what became a lifelong response pattern.

Maybe that night could have been the start of a personality weakness for your baby if you hadn’t taken the longer time to interact with them.  Thus God’s “No” to you wasn’t meanness at all, but love for not only your baby, but for you as a parent who would be troubled when your child had problems later on.  My parents certainly weren’t trying to shape me into someone who was socially awkward when they left me alone much of the time as an infant, they believed I was happy there, but studies have shown early interactions can really affect later social and physical development.  Physical contact has been shown to stimulate brain growth and development of the immune system, for example.

Long way of saying a lot of our ideas about other people are more based on our own feelings rather than on theirs and who they actually are.  Maybe God was doing you a favour with that “No”.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Calm

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, JVW said:

Hi everyone. I haven't been around lately because I was getting to distracted from working and had the network admin block the site from my work computer. Anyways ... onto the discussion topic.

Several nights ago I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No". His response kind of broke me a little. I got really angry with God because I rarely ask Him for anything and I've recently decided to start a path to return to the temple as I strive to get a good relationship with Him again.

As I've reflected on my walk with God, it's ups and downs since I met Him in my early twenties, I've come to realize something. The more effort I make to get close to God, the more mean He is to me. I was reminded of this verse in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 3:19), "...willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to INFLICT upon him..."

I decided to express my anger to God and study the scriptures to see if He'd communicate anything to me, and He did. Right after the garden suffering, when Jesus is being arrested ... John 18:11, "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" Jesus was sinless, blameless, compassionate, and loving. And God gave Him a cup filled to the brim with the most potent poison. Talk about being mean! If I am trying to follow Jesus, of course I should be expected to drink a similar cup, with poison tailored for me.

So here is my question. Do I really want to walk the path of Christianity if God is going to treat me like this if I intentionally choose to follow Him? What are the pro's and con's? I know that life will involve suffering whether or not I choose to follow Jesus, but why would I want to experience additional God-given suffering when I could just ignore God and deal with regular stuff instead? Hopefully this post makes sense and I look forward to learning from y'all about this topic.

While reading your comments, my thoughts immediately went to the Apostle Paul’s description of the manifold sufferings he endured throughout his ministry in devotion to the cause of Christ.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. (2 Corinthians 11)

and more…

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Corinthians 12)

And then my thoughts gravitated to the final triumphant testimony which herbore when he knew he was about to suffer a martyr’s death by the sword…

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4)

Finally, my reflections drifted away from Paul’s valiant example of steadfastness and to the marvelous wisdom manifested in God’s wondrous plan of salvation; for in his great love, mercy and compassion he has seen to it that even those souls who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus will still be able to look forward to a glorious inheritance in the terrestrial kingdom.

Edited August 21, 2025 by teddyaware

[ZealouslyStriving]

35 minutes ago, JVW said:

Nobody asks that question.

The Psalmist asks it many times.

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And probably a painful future. I haven’t seen anything that convinces me that death will stop the pain.

I'd say the operative word in my experience is "trusted" instead of "seen. How would you describe the trajectory of your trust in Christ over time?

[Calm]

I need to add I think it’s very useful to try and reframe what we see as negatives as positives depending on what we can do about the negatives.  While there are instances I pushed down my negative response when I should have protested more (for instance doctors insisting I was depressed when I just felt exhausted as I was not depressed, but had a sleep disorder that was ignored for almost 30 years by doctors), it has been very helpful to reframe situations that just were what they were in more positive terms.  For example, my daughter has the same sleep disorder and the nights of much of her early life were spent with hours each night of me attempting to help her relax, something that was often only possible with me having her on my chest gently thumping her bottom as it turns out vibrations distract from the weird sensations our sleep disorder causes.

 While it was extraordinarily frustrating for me to endure this when exhausted myself due to low quality sleep even when I got it, I did manage to avoid resentment and turn it into a greater bond between us because I saw myself doing for her what I wished someone had done for me in the lonely hours of lying awake as a child (my parents were firm believers in early to bed, early to rise, but the clock often read midnight before I would fall asleep…it never occurred to me as far as I remember to tell anyone I was awake, probably due to lessons unintentionally taught in the crib).  I think approaching her situation that way helped heal some of my own wounds.  And I am very grateful I went the extra mile with her back then now I actually know what caused her inability to sleep rather than listening to others telling me she needed to learn to settle herself down.

I am much happier in my current life now I have stopped racking my brains trying to figure out what the heck God is trying to teach me through my health and now just accept it is simply the result of natural consequences of a fallen world.  Accepting that and continuing to believe that God will turn it all to my good as well as others removes a ton of stress from my life as well as fear that somehow I am failing because I am not picking up on what he is trying to teach me.  I probably have had more effective insights into my life since I stopped trying so hard to have them as well.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Calm

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

 

But on the other hand, wouldn't you think that, perhaps, life already has enough hard stuff and instead God would just be supportive and help you feel peaceful and happy all the time through the hard times?

Heck ya.  I've thought that lots of times.  I'm sure I will again in the future.  Who doesn't want to rail against the injustice of it all sometimes?  But then, when I come to myself again, I feel this nudge in the back of my soul,  a nudge that whispers, "He does do those things, just not how you want Him too".  It's not a peace that comes by taking away the pain, changing the circumstances, or manipulating moods and because that's the kind of peace I want, I sometimes reject the other offering. 

That's how the world gives peace though, and the scriptures are clear.  The Savior does not give peace in the same way the world does.  It's only when I'm willing to look for peace His way, that I'm ever able to find it.

But it's so hard.  

Over the years I've learned that sometimes, I do not want to be comforted, I do not want the peace that the Savior offers.  I want to despair and be angry because I want God to finally figure out that He is not being fair, or just, or a good parent/God and to stop doing what He is doing, and start doing 'better' (which really just means doing what I wanted instead).  I want validation and compliance, and my instinct is too often to resist the feelings of the Spirit, its teachings, its peace, and its comfort, as a weird kind of punishment for God.  Kind of a 'see what you've done!  See what you've turned me into!  If I lose faith or lose my testimony it will be your fault!' attempt at manipulation.  I've learned that a lot of the time I don't want to let God be God.  It's too risky.

Lately, I've been working really hard on asking God to help me change my perspective rather than praying that He will change my circumstances.  That kind of trust and giving up of my will and my agenda is like trying to mix oil and water, but I know it's where these trials are leading me--I can feel it's the dross the Savior is trying to burn out--so I'm trying to fight it less.  Not every day is a win on that.

[Emily]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Several nights ago I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No". His response kind of broke me a little. I got really angry with God because I rarely ask Him for anything and I've recently decided to start a path to return to the temple as I strive to get a good relationship with Him again.

As I've reflected on my walk with God, it's ups and downs since I met Him in my early twenties, I've come to realize something. The more effort I make to get close to God, the more mean He is to me. I was reminded of this verse in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 3:19), "...willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to INFLICT upon him..."

I decided to express my anger to God and study the scriptures to see if He'd communicate anything to me, and He did. Right after the garden suffering, when Jesus is being arrested ... John 18:11, "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" Jesus was sinless, blameless, compassionate, and loving. And God gave Him a cup filled to the brim with the most potent poison. Talk about being mean! If I am trying to follow Jesus, of course I should be expected to drink a similar cup, with poison tailored for me.

So here is my question. Do I really want to walk the path of Christianity if God is going to treat me like this if I intentionally choose to follow Him? What are the pro's and con's? I know that life will involve suffering whether or not I choose to follow Jesus, but why would I want to experience additional God-given suffering when I could just ignore God and deal with regular stuff instead? Hopefully this post makes sense and I look forward to learning from y'all about this topic.

I'm actually a little confused by your example...was God saying "No" to putting the baby to sleep an example of Him being mean? Or handing you "extra" trials? Unless having a baby wasn't in your plans until you decided to follow God, a crying baby would be considered one of those normal trials you'll have whether you follow God or not.

If having a baby was always part of your plan, then I'm going to hazard a guess, from the perspective of an old Grandma who is looking back on a lot of kids, that God was blessing you by saying no.

Here are a few blessings you'll gain from your experience.

It sounds like your wife would have normally been the one to get up with the crying baby.

You've now gained a greater appreciation for what your wife deals with while you sleep. This will increase your respect for her. Mutual respect in a marriage makes the marriage stronger.

Your wife now knows her husband is willing to help with the baby even when its a rough job. This will increase her love and trust in you, also important for a good marriage.

This will be a memory you will cherish someday when your daughter is sulking through her early teenage years. You will realize that what seemed unbearable at the time, was just a very long night. You survived, your daughter survived, and she even smiled at you again.

The Lord of the Rings analogy is a very good point. But while trials are inevitable and we can learn from them, I firmly believe the gospel truly is "the plan of happiness" and life is much more difficult living outside the fold.

Cups will be presented regardless of where you are standing, maybe different cups, cups are going to come regardless. But if you are standing with God, you will always be able to call on the Holy Spirit for comfort. 

Perhaps next time, don't pray for the cup to pass, just pray for comfort. Christ had to bear all that He bore without comfort, specifically so you don't have to. You might as well take advantage of the gift. 

[Emily]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am much happier in my current life now I have stopped racking my brains trying to figure out what the heck God is trying to teach me through my health and now just accept it is simply the result of natural consequences of a fallen world.  Accepting that and continuing to believe that God will turn it all to my good as well as others removes a ton of stress from my life as well as fear that somehow I am failing because I am not picking up on what he is trying to teach me.  

Sounds like He may well have been trying to teach you acceptance. God must need loads of that. 😄