Tolerance

[Rivers]

I saw a couple of  Facebook posts following  the passing of Pres. Monson demeaning him and saying he was intolerant.  I’m not sure why they single him out as being intolerant.  They probably aren’t remembering his messages on charity and kindness.  In fact, I cannot recall him saying anything regarding LGBT issues.  So I had to scratch my head while reading these posts.

But it got me thinking about the meaning of  the word “tolerance” and I turned to the dictionary.

tol·er·ance

ˈtäl(ə)rəns/

noun

1. 1. 
   the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.

    

    

   Tolerance does not mean to agree with others but to respect their choices and beliefs in spite of disagreements.  It seems to me that some folks want to mean that others must agree with them.  Elder Oaks said we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Isn’t that tolerance?

Edited January 4, 2018 by Rivers

[JLHPROF]

Not trying to play anti here, but come on.  We don't have to agree with the critics responses but the source of claims of intolerance is pretty obvious.

 

[Rivers]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not trying to play anti here, but come on.  We don't have to agree with the critics responses but the source of claims of intolerance is pretty obvious.

 

I know. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

I saw a couple of  Facebook posts following  the passing of Pres. Monson demeaning him and saying he was intolerant.  I’m not sure why they single him out as being intolerant.  They probably aren’t remembering his messages on charity and kindness.  In fact, I cannot recall him saying anything regarding LGBT issues.  So I had to scratch my head while reading these posts.

But it got me thinking about the meaning of  the word “tolerance” and I turned to the dictionary.

tol·er·ance

ˈtäl(ə)rəns/

noun

1. 1. 
   the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.

    

    

   Tolerance does not mean to agree with others but to respect their choices and beliefs in spite of disagreements.  It seems to me that some folks want to mean that others must agree with them.  Elder Oaks said we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Isn’t that tolerance?

I dare say the authors of those posts are angry at the Church for its doctrine/policies and are taking it out on a good man by demeaning his memory. 

It’s a very juvenile attitude. 

[kiwi57]

Tolerance is what you don't have to show others if your "liberal" credentials are sufficient. Or maybe it's what you're not allowed to show to certain others if you want to keep your "liberal" street cred intact.

[strappinglad]

From what I've seen , tolerance is a one-way street.

[The Nehor]

As an intolerant person myself it is nice to be in good company.

[mfbukowski]

On 1/4/2018 at 2:28 PM, Rivers said:

I saw a couple of  Facebook posts following  the passing of Pres. Monson demeaning him and saying he was intolerant.  I’m not sure why they single him out as being intolerant.  They probably aren’t remembering his messages on charity and kindness.  In fact, I cannot recall him saying anything regarding LGBT issues.  So I had to scratch my head while reading these posts.

But it got me thinking about the meaning of  the word “tolerance” and I turned to the dictionary.

tol·er·ance

ˈtäl(ə)rəns/

noun

1. 1. 
   the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.

    

    

   Tolerance does not mean to agree with others but to respect their choices and beliefs in spite of disagreements.  It seems to me that some folks want to mean that others must agree with them.  Elder Oaks said we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Isn’t that tolerance?

I agree completely but I love to point out the circularity of dictionary definitions which most arguments begin with.

Tolerance is defined as the willingness to "tolerate" something?  

And if you don't know what that means where do you look that one up?  

Sorry all, just one of the many little things that I have trouble tolerating.... 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dormitive_principle

 

[RevTestament]

On 1/4/2018 at 5:22 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I dare say the authors of those posts are angry at the Church for its doctrine/policies and are taking it out on a good man by demeaning his memory. 

It’s a very juvenile attitude. 

If I were Pres. Monson, I too would take a fairly hard line against what I perceive the scriptures say is sin. In other words I too would uphold excommunication of gay married couples with active sex lives, heterosexual adulters, and unrepentant fornicators. Yet, I view myself as tolerant, and shake hands with all these sinners, and even eat in their homes. I will try to teach them things of the gospel, which my guess is they won't want to hear - why? Could it be they are intolerant?

2 Timothy 3:

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, ^acovetous, boasters, ^bproud, blasphemers, ^cdisobedient to parents, ^dunthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 ^aTraitors, ^bheady, ^chighminded, lovers of ^dpleasures more than lovers of God;

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

The scriptures take a fairly hard line against sinners. God is not tolerant of sin.

2 Timothy 4:3

3 For the time will come when they will not ^aendure sound ^bdoctrine; but after their own ^clusts shall they heap to themselves ^dteachers, having itching ears;

If ever these scriptures were applicable, I would say it is now. I believe the Church has shown a remarkable tolerance of those who are gay. It has supported anti-discrimination laws for gays in housing and other areas. Yet, they still rail against Pres. Monson as being an intolerant monster because of gay marriage and Church policies. They simply view him as the opposition so spew vehement words against him although he probably never uttered a cross word towards them. They will do the same with the next President, and thereafter, unless they get their way - so yeah - "juvenile attitude" is very appropriate.

[carbon dioxide]

The biggest test of tolerance is to tolerate those that one finds to be intolerant.  Many who preach tolerance can't pass this test.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The biggest test of tolerance is to tolerate those that one finds to be intolerant.  Many who preach tolerance can't pass this test.

This is why I do not consider myself tolerant. There are some opinions we should not tolerate. I am intolerant towards Nazis, KKK members, Trump supporters, human traffickers, radical fundamentalist Islamists, Wal-Mart greeters, and cat people. This does not mean I want to kill them all though in some cases they need to die. I would do what I can in my power to end the belief people have in these ideologies. Technically that is intolerance. Being tolerant is overrated. Being wise in what we choose to tolerate is where we should go.

Tolerance has become a nebulous concept and intolerance a meaningless slur. That is what you get when you rely on meaningless rhetoric like the idiots who attack Monson online.

[Gray]

19 hours ago, RevTestament said:

2 Timothy 4:3

3 For the time will come when they will not ^aendure sound ^bdoctrine; but after their own ^clusts shall they heap to themselves ^dteachers, having itching ears;

 

Some people desire to hear anti-gay teachings - they will always find teachers to scratch their itching ears.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Some people desire to hear anti-gay teachings - they will always find teachers to scratch their itching ears.

And some like to listen to teachers who teach sins are OK - that all they have to do is move their mouth to proclaim Jesus, and they will be fine...

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Some people desire to hear anti-gay teachings - they will always find teachers to scratch their itching ears.

Truth is truth, regardless of teachers or what teachings are desired.

[Gray]

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

And some like to listen to teachers who teach sins are OK - that all they have to do is move their mouth to proclaim Jesus, and they will be fine...

Yes, like the sin of intolerance towards gay people.

[longview]

On 1/6/2018 at 6:26 PM, The Nehor said:

I am intolerant towards Nazis, KKK members, Trump supporters, human traffickers, radical fundamentalist Islamists, Wal-Mart greeters, and cat people.

And hopefully Antifa types that hate American Exceptionalism?

[kiwi57]

10 hours ago, Gray said:

Some people desire to hear anti-gay teachings - they will always find teachers to scratch their itching ears.

Why do people "desire to hear anti-gay teachings?" So that they can burnish their own feelings of superiority over those who are teaching them?

Do you think that might explain why some choose to interpret moral standards as "anti-gay teachings?"

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Yes, like the sin of intolerance towards gay people.

The world has always hated the righteous, because Satan is in the world. The world does not accept calls for repentance because that is viewed as intolerance. If Yeshua Himself came and told them to repent they would view Him as being "intolerant towards gay people." 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

And hopefully Antifa types that hate American Exceptionalism?

There is no overarching Antifa organization to like or dislike. I dislike some of them. I admit I have a soft spot for the Antifa types whose main concern seems to be white supremacists coopting Japanese games and cartoons. Not that I think their cause is worthwhile or anything but they make me laugh.

In general though I am pro-people punching Nazis and fascists. I think we should do more of it. I suspect your Antifa groups that hate American Exceptionalism are largely a myth created by white nationalists peddling garbage. If ones defense of American Exceptionalism requires defending people who throw Nazi salutes and wear ghost costumes then maybe that person should reevaluate their definitions of "American" and "Exceptionalism".

Edited January 8, 2018 by The Nehor

[carbon dioxide]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In general though I am pro-people punching Nazis and fascists. I think we should do more of it. I suspect your Antifa groups that hate American Exceptionalism are largely a myth created by white nationalists peddling garbage. If ones defense of American Exceptionalism requires defending people who throw Nazi salutes and wear ghost costumes then maybe that person should reevaluate their definitions of "American" and "Exceptionalism".

I love the First Amendment and believe that the most important form of speech is the speech that is not popular and even hateful.  I don't agree with a Nazi or a communist but they have a right to say what they want.  Once their rights are taken away, who is the next group to have their rights removed?  Nazi salutes and clothing is meaningless to me.  They don't offend me nor harm me.  If one does like other views, just ignore them. 

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I love the First Amendment and believe that the most important form of speech is the speech that is not popular and even hateful.  I don't agree with a Nazi or a communist but they have a right to say what they want.  Once their rights are taken away, who is the next group to have their rights removed?  Nazi salutes and clothing is meaningless to me.  They don't offend me nor harm me.  If one does like other views, just ignore them. 

I like the First Amendment. I am not sure how you see hateful speech as "important" though. If you mean it is important to protect that argument has merit. I am not advocating taking away their rights or imprisoning them or having the government persecute them. I just think private citizens should punch them in their stupid faces, that they should lose their jobs when their horrible views are found out, that they should never get invited to anything, that people should throw mudballs at them as they walk down the street, and they should be socially scorned as fundamentally terrible people.

I am sure your counsel to ignore the Nazis would have been very helpful to the Jews and other undesireables being carted off to death camps in the 30s and 40s. Have you considered writing a paper on how ignoring Nazis could have prevented the Holocause? Yours is a simplistic take. Viewpoints can and do change things and can hurt and threaten people. Hate speech is not something you can just ignore and ignoring it will render it harmless.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

The world has always hated the righteous, because Satan is in the world. The world does not accept calls for repentance because that is viewed as intolerance. If Yeshua Himself came and told them to repent they would view Him as being "intolerant towards gay people." 

And he would hear a group of past Mormons and current Mormons condemning him for his anti-gay slurs.  Shame on him for his hate-filled speech! It is obviously the man does not have any love in his heart.  While they say these things they are of course over looking the nail prints in his hands and feet and the wound in his side.  

Ya gotta love those who choose to be blind and pray for them that they may one day see.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

The world has always hated the righteous, because Satan is in the world. The world does not accept calls for repentance because that is viewed as intolerance.

Indeed. Righteous gay couples still deal with a lot of hate from misguided fundamentalists. These fundamentalists seem to count sin as a virtue and repent not of their prejudice.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Gray

[Calm]

So many seem so certain about what the 'other' is like and how they will act.

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, Gray said:

Indeed. Righteous gay couples still deal with a lot of hate from misguided fundamentalists. These fundamentalists seem to count sin as a virtue and repent not of their prejudice.

I agree there is unjustified hate Gray. I just googled Westboro Baptist Church and found this website as their home page: www.godhatesfags.com. I hope you do not put the LDS Church in this category.  I in no way support this kind of hate. I also don't understand why such groups seem to single out gays and not adulterers or the many fornicators of our society. I am not going to go out and yell at "sinners." I'm not going to assume people are sinners. However, if someone wants to know how to get closer to God, I am going to advise them to repent of their sins. And I am going to tell them what I believe sin is.

Edited January 8, 2018 by RevTestament
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