A Drink In Seattle Vs. A Drink In Salt Lake City

[Scott Lloyd]

Why Can't we all just acknowledge that the so called Zion Curtin law is stupid and jsut makes we Utah(n)'s* look stupid and silly?

So what is it you want? The current regulations to be relaxed? More drinkers on the liquor control commission, presumably to do that very thing? Why should we accept that when you yourself have (unwittingly) given a very good premise for clamping down even harder on alcohol distribution in the state?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Johnnie Cake]

But you claim that the vast majority of alcohol drinkers do it responsibly. Apparently that's not as true for imbibers among residents and visitors to Utah if your assumption is true — that they are causing disproportionate fatalities despite the Mormon influence on the state.

If that's true, they pose a public menace that calls for an urgent remedy, and it is counter-intuitive that such a remedy entails relaxing restrictions on alcohol distribution — which is what you and others seem to want.

I don't know the numbers for alcohol related deaths in Utah caused by visitors to Utah...Do You? If so please share.

Scott this is a long thread and I've said many things so I may be wrong...but the only thing that I recall arguing for is the removal of the Zion Curtin in public restaurants...and I supported cold beer distribution at the liquor stores.

And IF I can get one single point across to my dear LDS friends on this board..responsible drinkers don't kill...drinkers who drive while drunk kill... jsut as responsible drivers don't kill...but drivers who txt while driving kill.

Its the person who makes a stupid choice that is the problem...not the product they legally chose to consume..seperate the two

[Johnnie Cake]

So what is it you want? The current regulations to be relaxed? More drinkers on the liquor control commission, presumably to do that very thing? Why should we accept that when you yourself have (unwittingly) given a very good premise for clamping down even harder on alcohol distribution in the state?

Unwittingly? Condescension doesn’t suit you Scott...I've merely pointed out that a larger drinking population WILL result in more stupid people driving while drunk. It’s a fact...Utah is unique in that it has a smaller drinking population...we all benefit from safer roads as a result of this anomaly. But what I can’t seem to get through the dross is the WHY Utah has safer roads….it NOT because of Utah’s control of liquor sales or distribution…its a complete result of our low liquor consumption in the state.

State control vis a vie Zion Curtin’s does not control liquor consumption nor alcohol related deaths...it has the same effect on murder from guns as limiting the number of rounds in a clip does...ZERO...but it does give the false impression to the non-drinking public that limits are being place on those evil sinners who desire a drink...which is false, it doesn't, all it does is make Utah look silly

Edited May 22, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't know the numbers for alcohol related deaths in Utah caused by visitors to Utah...Do You? If so please share.

Not off hand. I presume it's not just residents who are responsible for the alcohol-related deaths. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Scott this is a long thread and I've said many things so I may be wrong...but the only thing that I recall arguing for is the removal of the Zion Curtin in public restaurants...and I supported cold beer distribution at the liquor stores.

So you're not calling for relaxation in regulations, then?

And IF I can get one single point across to my dear LDS friends on this board..responsible drinkers don't kill...drinkers who drive while drunk kill... jsut as responsible drivers don't kill...but drivers who txt while driving kill.

But if the person is irresponsible by nature, access to alcohol is apt to aggravate the effects of that irresponsibility. That, presumably, is the premise behind laws and regulations that control the access to and distribution of alcohol — and hence, the existence of an Alocholic Beverage Control Commission.

Its the person who makes a stupid choice that is the problem...not the product they legally chose to consume..seperate the two

They can hardly be separated if the one aggravates the other.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Unwittingly? Condescension doesn’t suit you Scott...

I said "unwittingly" because I don't think you realized you were providing a reason for arguing against relaxed regulation of alcohol distribution in the state.

I've merely pointed out that a larger drinking population WILL result in more stupid people driving while drunk. It’s a fact...Utah is unique in that it has a smaller drinking population...we all benefit from safer roads as a result of this anomaly. But what I can’t seem to get through the dross is the WHY Utah has safer roads….it NOT because of Utah’s control of liquor sales or distribution…its a complete result of our low liquor consumption in the state.

And a corollary to that is liquor consumption tends to make the roads more dangerous — which is a reason to argue in favor of controlling liquor consumption.

State control vis a vis Zion Curtin’s does not control liquor consumption nor alcohol related deaths...

I haven't gotten into discussion of the effectiveness of the current laws. I've only held that there should be some regulation in place. Are you or are you not arguing in favor of relaxing regulation on alcohol distribution?

[Ahab]

Why Can't we all just acknowledge that the so called Zion Curtin law is stupid and jsut makes we Utah(n)'s* look stupid and silly?

*For Scott

The intelligent aspect of an intelligent law is the part that deters or makes it more difficult to do something bad or stupid.

People can still do bad and stupid things, of course, but we don't have to make it easy for those who insist on doing stupid things.

The idea behind "Do whatever you want regardless of the consequences it may have on you or someone else" is a stupid idea.

[ERayR]

Unwittingly? Condescension doesn’t suit you Scott...I've merely pointed out that a larger drinking population WILL result in more stupid people driving while drunk. It’s a fact...Utah is unique in that it has a smaller drinking population...we all benefit from safer roads as a result of this anomaly. But what I can’t seem to get through the dross is the WHY Utah has safer roads….it NOT because of Utah’s control of liquor sales or distribution…its a complete result of our low liquor consumption in the state.

State control vis a vie Zion Curtin’s does not control liquor consumption nor alcohol related deaths...it has the same effect on murder from guns as limiting the number of rounds in a clip does...ZERO...but it does give the false impression to the non-drinking public that limits are being place on those evil sinners who desire a drink...which is false, it doesn't, all it does is make Utah look silly

You keep complaining about a "Zion curtain" Pray tell what is a "Zion curtain" ?

[Scott Lloyd]

You keep complaining about a "Zion curtain" Pray tell what is a "Zion curtain" ?

It's a buzz term used by people who think the Church has too much influence on Utah, its government and its people. It plays off the Cold War term Iron Curtain, implying of course, that the Church can be likened to Cold War-era totalitarian Communist regimes.

Nice.

The fact that Johnnie Cake has been incessantly throwing it around here as a substitute for solid argumentation indicates, perhaps, that he lacks a solid argument.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[rpn]

Well in this specific instance, it means the barrier that places selling liquor have to set up so that people who are eating can't see the drinks being prepared. Lots more like the jackboots.

[ERayR]

Well in this specific instance, it means the barrier that places selling liquor have to set up so that people who are eating can't see the drinks being prepared. Lots more like the jackboots.

Not unusual. Why is that such a heinous hardship.

Edited May 22, 2013 by ERayR

[ERayR]

It's a buzz word used by people who think the Church has too much influence on Utah, its government and its people. It plays off the Cold War term Iron Curtain, implying of course, that the Church can be likened to Cold War-era totalitarian Communist regimes.

Nice.

The fact that Johnnie Cake has been incessantly throwing it around here as a substitute for solid argumentation indicates, perhaps, that he lacks a solid argument.

If you can't dazzle them with footwork baffle them with BS. You gotta love em.

[Bernard Gui]

Why, do you eat your ice cream on the way home from the store so it won't melt?

?

[Bernard Gui]

Were you to make some extrapolations on Utahs drinking/non-drinking population...would you agree that Utah's number are rather squewed to the lower end due to 50-60% of our populations views regarding alcohol consumption...maybe once all those non-drinkers are removed, Utah has a rather high number of alcohol related deaths...which would suggest that Utah's current control system isn't really having much of an impact

No. It means some people in Utah do not have the smarts not to drink and drive.

[Bernard Gui]

Unquestionably!

Er....., uh...

How would I know?

Before I joined the church, one of my favorite things was a tall (cold- sorry Brits!) glass of Guiness Stout!

Oh man, my mouth just waters thinking about it!

But I like the gospel better.

Hah! How about non-alcohlic beers?

[Johnnie Cake]

You keep complaining about a "Zion curtain" Pray tell what is a "Zion curtain" ?

Zion curtains are partitions unique to Utah restaurants that separate restaurant bartenders preparing alcoholic drinks from the customers who order them. These partitions are often made of frosted glass. They were mandated in hopes of combating excessive drinking by keeping alcohol out of sight of restaurant patrons who choose not to consume alcohol.

They DON"T achieve their intended purpose

[Johnnie Cake]

If you can't dazzle them with footwork baffle them with BS. You gotta love em.

Why the acrimony? Can't two people with different points of view have a friendly discussion without turning to attacks or belittling...I don't insist that we agree...but I would hope that we could reach a place of mutual respect for each other ERayR

[Johnnie Cake]

But you claim that the vast majority of alcohol drinkers do it responsibly. Apparently that's not as true for imbibers among residents and visitors to Utah if your assumption is true — that they are causing disproportionate fatalities despite the Mormon influence on the state.

If that's true, they pose a public menace that calls for an urgent remedy, and it is counter-intuitive that such a remedy entails relaxing restrictions on alcohol distribution — which is what you and others seem to want.

I've asked you to back up your claim...you've admitted that you can't...responsible people are responsible...those who are not...arn't... Drinking aside

[ERayR]

Why the acrimony? Can't two people with different points of view have a friendly discussion without turning to attacks or belittling...I don't insist that we agree...but I would hope that we could reach a place of mutual respect for each other ERayR

Your "Zion curtain" jabs at the church are not acrimony? Keep poking a stick in somebody's eye long enough and they will react.

Edited May 22, 2013 by ERayR

[Bernard Gui]

They were mandated in hopes of combating excessive drinking by keeping alcohol out of sight of restaurant patrons who choose not to consume alcohol.

CFR (call for reference), please. Where is this documented?

[ERayR]

Zion curtains are partitions unique to Utah restaurants that separate restaurant bartenders preparing alcoholic drinks from the customers who order them. These partitions are often made of frosted glass. They were mandated in hopes of combating excessive drinking by keeping alcohol out of sight of restaurant patrons who choose not to consume alcohol.

They DON"T achieve their intended purpose

CFR that they were mandated to curb excessive drinking. As I remember my on the road days there were several places where alcohol could not be in the eating area where minors were served. It has nothing to do with curbing drinking.

[Johnnie Cake]

So what is it you want? The current regulations to be relaxed? More drinkers on the liquor control commission, presumably to do that very thing? Why should we accept that when you yourself have (unwittingly) given a very good premise for clamping down even harder on alcohol distribution in the state?

Scott...we could make all kinds of correlations…more drinkers DO = more irresponsible driver...as I've "Whittingly" pointed out...I’ve never claimed otherwise…just as more drivers DO = more accidents…by your logic we should limit the number of drivers on the road…irrespective of how responsible they are…

Let’s ban all cars from our highways and there will never again be a highway fatality. problem solved per Scott's logic

But responsible drivers are responsible…whether they drink or not…separate the two…stop lumping all drinkers in with irresponsible drinkers.

If someone drives drunk throw the book at them…BUT controlling alcohol by hiding it behind a wall…does not control alcohol…what is so difficult about this for you to understand? Responsible consumption of alcohol is NOT the problem…it’s the irresponsible consumption of alcohol (a product that is legally available in large quantities in Utah) How exactly do you restrict the consumption of these irresponsible consumers? That’s the million dollar question…but don’t attack and restrict responsible consumers…they self-restrict…because they are responsible

Edited May 22, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

CFR that they were mandated to curb excessive drinking. As I remember my on the road days there were several places where alcohol could not be in the eating area where minors were served. It has nothing to do with curbing drinking.

Oh Brother...I did a quick cut and paist from Wiki to explain to you what a Zions Curtin is...do your own damn CFR

Edited May 22, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

Your "Zion curtain" jabs at the church are not acrimony? Keep poking a stick in somebody's eye long enough and they will react.

Take your complaints and sensitivities up with the Deseret News

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865575564/Zion-wall-in-Utah-restaurants-will-stand-for-now.html?pg=all

[Bernard Gui]

Johnnie Cake: There is a CFR rule on this discussion board. When you are asked to support an assertion, you

are expected to provide it.

Refusing to provide appropriate references to support your statements

This is what you claimed:

They were mandated in hopes of combating excessive drinking by keeping alcohol out of sight of restaurant patrons who choose not to consume alcohol.

This is what the Deseret News article says:

Since 2009, the state has required restaurants to construct the barriers to shield young people from liquor displays and the mixing of alcoholic beverages.

Valentine says a "wetter" environment where drinking is more socially acceptable or visible gives rise to more youth drinking on or off premises.

"I'm concerned about the culture of alcohol. I'm concerned about changing the atmosphere of our restaurants to bars," Valentine said. "Our restaurants are family friendly. We don't want the atmosphere that encourages the consumption of alcohol."

You have 2 standing CFRs. Please provide your sources.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

Scott...we could make all kinds of correlations…more drinkers DO = more irresponsible driver...as I've "Whittingly" pointed out...I’ve never claimed otherwise…just as more drivers DO = more accidents…by your logic we should limit the number of drivers on the road…irrespective of how responsible they are…

Let’s ban all cars from our highways and there will never again be a highway fatality. problem solved per Scott's logic

But responsible drivers are responsible…whether they drink or not…separate the two…stop lumping all drinkers in with irresponsible drinkers.

If someone drives drunk throw the book at them…BUT controlling alcohol by hiding it behind a wall…does not control alcohol…what is so difficult about this for you to understand? Responsible consumption of alcohol is NOT the problem…it’s the irresponsible consumption of alcohol (a product that is legally available in large quantities in Utah) How exactly do you restrict the consumption of these irresponsible consumers? That’s the million dollar question…but don’t attack and restrict responsible consumers…they self-restrict…because they are responsible

The best answer to that million dollar question is what people have been trying to figure out for quite a while now. It's not like we can cover all the bases to make sure people can't do something stupid after what you would refer to as responsible drinking, so our lawmakers have to figure out what they can do to avoid the stupid acts of other people.

If you've got a better solution to the problem of limiting the stupidity of other people, share it. Otherwise you're not helping to solve the problem.