85 replies to this topic

[smac97]

Here:

"We Have no Issue with the Members of the Mormon Church, their Doctrines, or their Faith. The Purpose of this Petition is to bring Financial Transparency to the Financial Dealings of the Leadership of the Mormon Church. Where indicated, we desire a criminal investigation that would focus on potential Fraud, Personal Enrichment, Theft by Deception, RICO violations, Money Laundering, Kickbacks and Criminal Conspiracy. This Petition will be forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, United States Attorney General, Congress and other Law Enforcement, Political or Media entities.

WHEREAS

: The Mormon (LDS)Church is run as a Corporation Sole with no known financial accountability to the General Membership, and will not disclose its financial dealings, assets or liabilities to the General Membership or any public entity.

WHEREAS

: The Mormon Church did fully disclose its finances to the General Membership prior to the 1950s.

WHEREAS

: Without Consent of the General Membership Church Donations, Tithes, Fast offerrings and other sacrifices by the General Membership have built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

WHEREAS

: The Corporation of the Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric of the Church of Latter-Day Sainst were created without the specific approval of the General Membership as Corporate soles, contrary to Church Doctrine, which states that ALL THINGS MUST BE DONE BY COMMON CONSENT of the General Membership.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors was created without the Common Consent of the General Membership as a Secret Holding Company for the receipt of Church Assets from the sales of Church Businesses and other assets without the COMMON CONSENT of the General Membership.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors has been involved in transferring wealth "Off the Books" of the Church and into highly suspect investments according to public articles in the media. These transactions appeared to involve sub-prime mortgages, high-risk derivatives, put options, call options and futures.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors appears to be an instrument of plunderto transfer Wealth from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors Appears to have involved Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and Robert Gay and Goldman Sachs in this wealth transfer.

WHEREAS

: H Burton Davis, the President of the Presiding Bishopric was terminated in his position after these allegations were made public, a possible cover-up, and attempt to thwart any criminal investigation and possible Obstruction of Justice.

WHEREAS

: Robert Gay was just appointed to First Quorum of the Seventy of the Church.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors and other Church Assets that rightfully belong to the General Membership were used to construct a Luxury Retail Mall with cost over-runs in the billions of dollars, without the COMMON CONSENT of the MEMBERSHIP.

WHEREAS

: Retail Developments with extensive cost over-runs often involve kick-backs and money-laundering, as well as theft by deception, and could violate RICO laws.

WHEREAS

: The Assets of Beneficial Life, another Church Asset, also appears to have been plundered through the use of subprime mortages and derivatives that may involve Ensign Peak Advisors, Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and Leaders of the Mormon Church.

WHEREAS

: The President of Deseret Management, which manages Beneficial Life as a Church Holding Company was also terminated recently, in what could be another attempt to thwart justice.

WE Petition The FBI, Congress, The United States Attorney General and other entities to investigate

the First Presidency, Presiding Bishopric, Ensign Peak Advisors, Deseret Management, for high crimes and misdemeanors against the General Membership fo the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

WE Further Petition

:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to make public all of its financial holdings and records

through its newspaper, the Deseret Morning News. That the Church would disband its Corporations of the First Presidency and Presiding Bishopric forthwith, and replace them with a proper Board of Directors or other governing organization to be sustained by the General Membership of the Church.

WE Further Petition

: That all past financial dealings be disclosed to the General Membership of the Church, including assets, liabilities, expenditures, salaries, other holdings, investment losses and performance of all Church owned entities which rightfully belong to the General Membership."

_________

Notice that this petition was not started by Mormons ("We Have no Issue with the Members of the Mormon Church, their Doctrines, or their Faith.").

There are a few puzzling bits about this.  The third "Whereas" clause ("Without Consent of the General Membership Church Donations, Tithes, Fast offerrings and other sacrifices by the General Membership have built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints") is strange. How are voluntary donations used "without consent?

The bit about Ensign Peak Advisors is interesting, as I hadn't heard about this entity before.  There are a few antipathetic articles about it online, including breathless claims about apostles being paid $600K/yr.  Uh, yeah.

The bit about "H Burton Davis, the President of the Presiding Bishopric" is amusingly off-base.  First, there is no such thing as a "President of the Presiding Bishopric."  Second, there is no "H Burton Davis."  The author is clearly referring to H. David Burton, the presiding bishop of the LDS Church from 12/27/95 to 03/31/12.

I doubt this petition will get much traction.  

-Smac

Edited by smac97, 08 April 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Log]

The mask drops - not a word about the poor up in here.

[Bikeemikey]

Got to love the democratic underground - protecting us Mormons from ourselves.

The only time this issue is worth pursuing is when it is coming from the members themselves.

Until then nonmormons should respect that most Mormons are happy with the current financial disclosures.

I am sure there are auditing practices and policies  in place that would make my head explode.

(null)

Edited by Bikeemikey, 08 April 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[Kenngo1969]

"H. Burton Davis" was the Presiding Bishop?   You can't make this stuff up, folks!  (Oh, wait ... actually you can.  Sorry; my bad. )

P.S.:  I knew there was something fishy about that "Giant In Our City" Award from the Chamber of Commerce!

P.P.S.:  I see you beat me to the punch about "Bishop Davis," Smac.  Good call!

Edited by Kenngo1969, 08 April 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[Duncan]

The FBI and Church must get stuff like this on a regular basis.

[Sleeper Cell]

 smac97, on 08 April 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Here:

WE Petition The FBI, Congress, The United States Attorney General and other entities to investigate

the First Presidency, Presiding Bishopric, Ensign Peak Advisors, Deseret Management, for high crimes and misdemeanors against the General Membership fo the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I thought that the Mormons controlled the FBI.

[Kenngo1969]

Quote

WE Petition The FBI, Congress, The United States Attorney General and other entities to investigate
the First Presidency, Presiding Bishopric, Ensign Peak Advisors, Deseret Management, for high crimes and misdemeanors against the General Membership fo the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

They'll get right on it, I'm sure.    Who needs pesky things like evidence, reasonable suspicion, probable cause, and due process, when you've got rumor, suspicion, innuendo, and baseless allegations?!  And "high crimes and misdemeanors"?  Is somebody being impeached?  Oooh, I hope C-SPAN's carrying the hearings!  Who wants to bring the popcorn?

[ebeddoulos]

My experience is about a decade old but every branch, ward district and stake was audited every six months.  I am quite sure that the upper echelons received much the same treatment.  It is from these twice annual audits that the Conference financial report is based.

I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that whomever wrote this "petition" is not an one either.  This reads more like a high school debate topic. I suspect that there is a lack of standing as well.  I doubt that one "full" tithe paying member had a hand in drafting it.

A cleaned up version of this may get some traction along about October.

[Zakuska]

And here I thought us Mormons were in control of the FBI and the CIA.  Isn't that a conflict of intrest?

[TAO]

Someone might consider posting a link to this thread on their site.  =p.  Some of these flaws are pretty bad.

Edited by TAO, 08 April 2012 - 07:37 PM.

[wenglund]

 Kenngo1969, on 08 April 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

[b][/size][/font][/color]

They'll get right on it, I'm sure.    Who needs pesky things like evidence, reasonable suspicion, probable cause, and due process, when you've got rumor, suspicion, innuendo, and baseless allegations?!  And "high crimes and misdemeanors"?  Is somebody being impeached?  Oooh, I hope C-SPAN's carrying the hearings!  Who wants to bring the popcorn?

I can't wait for the sequel, where they petition the Dept. of  Homeland Security to investigate Mother Teresa for her alleged terrorist plots.

Is there a "Stuck-on-Stupid" award? If so, we have a clear nominee.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Bernard Gui]

Many, many years ago I worked as a file clerk for a government agency.
We had a large storage area for letters like this. The area was named "Crackpots."
Reading through some of them back then was a hoot. This one qualifies.

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 08 April 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[cinepro]

 ebeddoulos, on 08 April 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

My experience is about a decade old but every branch, ward district and stake was audited every six months.  I am quite sure that the upper echelons received much the same treatment.  It is from these twice annual audits that the Conference financial report is based.

I haven't seen a group of people so enamored with auditing since I stopped into the Scientology center on Hollywood Blvd. to use the bathroom last year.

Financial auditing does nothing to speak to the soundness of a business or wisdom in financial management.  It just makes sure all the numbers add up and nothing is mysteriously missing.  With no public reports, an auditor's report doesn't really mean much to those on the outside looking in.

After all, Enron was heavily audited.

Edited by cinepro, 08 April 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[KevinG]

 Sleeper Cell, on 08 April 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I thought that the Mormons controlled the FBI.

When the investigation fails to happen that will be further proof.

What a bunch of knuckleheads.  Imagine if they had put this much energy into teaching the Gospel or ministering to the poor?

[why me]

 smac97, on 08 April 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Notice that this petition was not started by Mormons ("We Have no Issue with the Members of the Mormon Church, their Doctrines, or their Faith.").

The petition has everything to do with it. However, they cannot admit it and need this disclaimer.

[Stargazer]

 ebeddoulos, on 08 April 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

My experience is about a decade old but every branch, ward district and stake was audited every six months.  I am quite sure that the upper echelons received much the same treatment.  It is from these twice annual audits that the Conference financial report is based.

I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that whomever wrote this "petition" is not an one either.  This reads more like a high school debate topic. I suspect that there is a lack of standing as well.  I doubt that one "full" tithe paying member had a hand in drafting it.

A cleaned up version of this may get some traction along about October.

I'm a current branch financial clerk, and yes, I get audited twice a year.

"Lack of standing" for sure.

The other thing is "separation of church and state".  There appears to be a long-standing constitutional principle that is at stake here.

[kolipoki09]

After going to the original poster's website, I find it rather odd that the first thing you encounter is a request for a $5 donation. I wonder whether Mormon Reform plans to disclose all of its assets as well.

Apparently the "Mormon Mafia" is "informally involved" in this shebang.

I'd better call Brother Corleone stat. I know they're busy with the whole "Temple in Rome" thing, but unless I'm released as Consigliere any time soon, I'm going to end up with a tapir head in my bed.

[Alan]

Although this is a bit silly, I do think the church should be more transparent with it's finances. It isn't as if it isn't possible - the information is available. Al they have to do is make it public. I don't see why they won't; seems to be a no-brainer to me.

I confess to having a bit of a gripe about this. Our building has some major problems which need fixing, yet we are constantly told there is no money. But then I hear of new temples, shopping malls etc and I wonder.

[Storm Rider]

My eyes roll so far back in my head I can see ... forget it; there is no need to get graphic.  I invite everyone that has a problem with the LDS Church's finances to never pay tithing it again.  Please stop immediately.  Then you will no longer be pained with not knowing where your hard earned money goes.  More importantly, we won't ever need to hear about it.

This is a Church organization.  It is no one's business but their own.  The people who need to know how the money is spent, wait for it, THEY KNOW where every bloody dime is spent.

I cannot tell you how tired I am of these type of whining threads.  If you have a problem with the Church, (here is my Christ-like attitude being completely overcome by my carnal self), please don't let the door hit your backside on the way out.  Run for the exits; do not pass go; do not collect $200 dollars; just leave.

Here is the deal.  You are called to be a disciple of Christ.  To be a disciple demands humility and a willingness to submit to God's will.  Even if the leaders of the Church were total cut-throats and con men; as long as you pay your tithes you are in good shape.  It does not matter what they do with the funds.

The best news is that the world becomes a more pleasant, sane place in which to live.  We don't have to hear the bloody whining and complaining that YOU are not in charge of the tithes of the church.  God grant me the patience to put up with these people because frankly, they annoy the bloody heck right out of me.

[Pa Pa]

People have too much time on their hand's...The leaders are certainly not putting the money into their homes.

http://www.moroni10....hets_homes.html