Saints Alive Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I've never even heard of Ensign Peak Advisors, or Deseret Management.I have to admit it would be, at the very least, "illuminating" to be educated to all the business and financial interests of the church.I imagine it would be incredibly boring to the vast majority of all interested parties.
Senator Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I imagine it would be incredibly boring to the vast majority of all interested parties.Maybe, maybe not.But that would make them uninterested parties; would it not?
Saints Alive Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 But that would make them uninterested parties; would it not?My guess is yes, almost immediately after the information was released.
Senator Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 My guess is yes, almost immediately after the information was released.My quess is that if one was given vision to the vast holdings and financial dealings of the church, the response would be kind of an involuntary, "WOW!"
Vance Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I thought that the Mormons controlled the FBI.And big oil!http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/jack-gerard-the-force-majeure-behind-big-oil/2012/04/06/gIQA1hjC0S_story.htmlThree and a half years later, Gerard is holding President Obama’s feet to the fire. A longtime supporter of fellow Mormon and former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, Gerard has repeatedly castigated Obama for his energy policies. He has also leaned on estimates — about the number of jobs the oil industry creates and the president’s power over oil prices — that many energy economists say are greatly
oremites Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 ...The leaders are certainly not putting the money into their homes.Maybe not their homes, but I did notice that President Uchtdorf had on a different tie every single conference session. That's got to really add up. The GA tie budget for conference must be enormous. And that's twice a year! 3
Sleeper Cell Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 What a bunch of knuckleheads. Imagine if they had put this much energy into teaching the Gospel or ministering to the poor?This is a bit unfair. After all, they are probably also devoting a lot of energy criticizing the church for not spending enough money to help the poor. Under the circumstances, I think it is unreasonable to ask them to actually minister to the poor. We should cut them some slack.
rameumptom Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 This Petition brought to you by the "Club to re-elect Barack Obama".
wenglund Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I imagine it would be incredibly boring to the vast majority of all interested parties.I am thinking that in some cases there may be some kind of voyeuristic appeal. It seems as though certain people are compelled to peek into things that are none of their business, particularly if there is the least suspicion, whether justified or not, of wrong-doing.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Maybe not their homes, but I did notice that President Uchtdorf had on a different tie every single conference session. That's got to really add up. The GA tie budget for conference must be enormous. And that's twice a year!Maybe not their homes, but I did notice that President Uchtdorf had on a different tie every single conference session. That's got to really add up. The GA tie budget for conference must be enormous. And that's twice a year!Scandalous!
Saints Alive Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I am thinking that in some cases there may be some kind of voyeuristic appeal. It seems as though certain people are compelled to peek into things that are none of their business, particularly if there is the least suspicion, whether justified or not, of wrong-doing.Thanks, -Wade Englund-I can only imagine what manufactured scandal would ensue...
wenglund Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I can only imagine what manufactured scandal would ensue...Busy-bodies tend to be a creative bunch. They find all sorts of ways to leer and all sorts of reasons to try and compel others to expose what isn't the busy-bodies' business. This type of voyeurism, while obnoxious, has been a boon to so-called reality TV.Then, too, there are the growing ranks of the overly-paranoid and cynical who suspect evil lurking behind even the most innocuous bushes, and who fuel the conspiracy industry, I am guessing, to the tune of millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars each year (shades of Y2K).Such is the bizarre world we live in.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Kenngo1969 Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I've never even heard of Ensign Peak Advisors, or Deseret Management.I have to admit it would be, at the very least, "illuminating" to be educated to all the business and financial interests of the church.See??? This huge conspiracy is taking place right under your nose!!!
Zakuska Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 My eyes roll so far back in my head I can see ... forget it; there is no need to get graphic. I invite everyone that has a problem with the LDS Church's finances to never pay tithing it again. Please stop immediately. Then you will no longer be pained with not knowing where your hard earned money goes. More importantly, we won't ever need to hear about it.This is a Church organization. It is no one's business but their own. The people who need to know how the money is spent, wait for it, THEY KNOW where every bloody dime is spent.I cannot tell you how tired I am of these type of whining threads. If you have a problem with the Church, (here is my Christ-like attitude being completely overcome by my carnal self), please don't let the door hit your backside on the way out. Run for the exits; do not pass go; do not collect $200 dollars; just leave.Here is the deal. You are called to be a disciple of Christ. To be a disciple demands humility and a willingness to submit to God's will. Even if the leaders of the Church were total cut-throats and con men; as long as you pay your tithes you are in good shape. It does not matter what they do with the funds.The best news is that the world becomes a more pleasant, sane place in which to live. We don't have to hear the bloody whining and complaining that YOU are not in charge of the tithes of the church. God grant me the patience to put up with these people because frankly, they annoy the bloody heck right out of me.Tell me about it. I wonder if the church of Jesus Christ and his twelve rufians had full financial disclosure?John 12 1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. 3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
Senator Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I am thinking that in some cases there may be some kind of voyeuristic appeal. It seems as though certain people are compelled to peek into things that are none of their business, particularly if there is the least suspicion, whether justified or not, of wrong-doing.Thanks, -Wade Englund-I am sure there are some cases of such people. I hope you didn't have me in mind when making that statement.I do have an interest in what the church is doing, where it's going, and how it's getting there. This is not voyeuristic, or "busy-bodying" in any regard. The church is to be a Zion. The mind of the church is to be the mind of the people, and the mind of the poeple is to be the mind of the church. We aught to be very interested in the interests and affairs of Zion.Through revelation it was counceled, "make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness". I am keenly interested in how that was interpreted historically as well as contemporarily; how/if the church has used Babylon's game to achieve its own purposes.
Senator Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 See??? This huge conspiracy is taking place right under your nose!!!I have no such suspicion.
Damien the Leper Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Here: "We Have no Issue with the Members of the Mormon Church, their Doctrines, or their Faith. The Purpose of this Petition is to bring Financial Transparency to the Financial Dealings of the Leadership of the Mormon Church. Where indicated, we desire a criminal investigation that would focus on potential Fraud, Personal Enrichment, Theft by Deception, RICO violations, Money Laundering, Kickbacks and Criminal Conspiracy. This Petition will be forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, United States Attorney General, Congress and other Law Enforcement, Political or Media entities. WHEREAS : The Mormon (LDS)Church is run as a Corporation Sole with no known financial accountability to the General Membership, and will not disclose its financial dealings, assets or liabilities to the General Membership or any public entity. WHEREAS : The Mormon Church did fully disclose its finances to the General Membership prior to the 1950s. WHEREAS : Without Consent of the General Membership Church Donations, Tithes, Fast offerrings and other sacrifices by the General Membership have built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. WHEREAS : The Corporation of the Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric of the Church of Latter-Day Sainst were created without the specific approval of the General Membership as Corporate soles, contrary to Church Doctrine, which states that ALL THINGS MUST BE DONE BY COMMON CONSENT of the General Membership. WHEREAS : Ensign Peak Advisors was created without the Common Consent of the General Membership as a Secret Holding Company for the receipt of Church Assets from the sales of Church Businesses and other assets without the COMMON CONSENT of the General Membership. WHEREAS : Ensign Peak Advisors has been involved in transferring wealth "Off the Books" of the Church and into highly suspect investments according to public articles in the media. These transactions appeared to involve sub-prime mortgages, high-risk derivatives, put options, call options and futures. WHEREAS : Ensign Peak Advisors appears to be an instrument of plunderto transfer Wealth from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. WHEREAS : Ensign Peak Advisors Appears to have involved Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and Robert Gay and Goldman Sachs in this wealth transfer. WHEREAS : H Burton Davis, the President of the Presiding Bishopric was terminated in his position after these allegations were made public, a possible cover-up, and attempt to thwart any criminal investigation and possible Obstruction of Justice. WHEREAS : Robert Gay was just appointed to First Quorum of the Seventy of the Church. WHEREAS : Ensign Peak Advisors and other Church Assets that rightfully belong to the General Membership were used to construct a Luxury Retail Mall with cost over-runs in the billions of dollars, without the COMMON CONSENT of the MEMBERSHIP. WHEREAS : Retail Developments with extensive cost over-runs often involve kick-backs and money-laundering, as well as theft by deception, and could violate RICO laws. WHEREAS : The Assets of Beneficial Life, another Church Asset, also appears to have been plundered through the use of subprime mortages and derivatives that may involve Ensign Peak Advisors, Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and Leaders of the Mormon Church. WHEREAS : The President of Deseret Management, which manages Beneficial Life as a Church Holding Company was also terminated recently, in what could be another attempt to thwart justice. WE Petition The FBI, Congress, The United States Attorney General and other entities to investigate the First Presidency, Presiding Bishopric, Ensign Peak Advisors, Deseret Management, for high crimes and misdemeanors against the General Membership fo the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. WE Further Petition : The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to make public all of its financial holdings and records through its newspaper, the Deseret Morning News. That the Church would disband its Corporations of the First Presidency and Presiding Bishopric forthwith, and replace them with a proper Board of Directors or other governing organization to be sustained by the General Membership of the Church. WE Further Petition : That all past financial dealings be disclosed to the General Membership of the Church, including assets, liabilities, expenditures, salaries, other holdings, investment losses and performance of all Church owned entities which rightfully belong to the General Membership." _________Notice that this petition was not started by Mormons ("We Have no Issue with the Members of the Mormon Church, their Doctrines, or their Faith.").There are a few puzzling bits about this. The third "Whereas" clause ("Without Consent of the General Membership Church Donations, Tithes, Fast offerrings and other sacrifices by the General Membership have built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints") is strange. How are voluntary donations used "without consent?The bit about Ensign Peak Advisors is interesting, as I hadn't heard about this entity before. There are a few antipathetic articles about it online, including breathless claims about apostles being paid $600K/yr. Uh, yeah.The bit about "H Burton Davis, the President of the Presiding Bishopric" is amusingly off-base. First, there is no such thing as a "President of the Presiding Bishopric." Second, there is no "H Burton Davis." The author is clearly referring to H. David Burton, the presiding bishop of the LDS Church from 12/27/95 to 03/31/12.I doubt this petition will get much traction. -SmacI honestly don't know what to say to this. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to have an opinion. Can someone dumb this down for me?
Cobalt-70 Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) The other thing is "separation of church and state". There appears to be a long-standing constitutional principle that is at stake here.There wouldn't be a constitutional problem if there truly were fraud going on. But if the church makes no promises on how it will use the money, there is no fraud. If a man showed up on your door and asked you for a donation of $100, without telling you what it would be used for, and you voluntarily gave him the money, then you couldn't complain to have been defrauded. Edited April 9, 2012 by Cobalt-70
cinepro Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 There wouldn't be a constitutional problem if there truly were fraud going on. But if the church makes no promises on how it will use the money, there is no fraud. If a man showed up on your door and asked you for a donation of $100, without telling you what it would be used for, and you voluntarily gave him the money, then you couldn't complain to have been defrauded.And apparently if you politely asked what he was going to do with it (or what he had done with it), it would be rude.
Buzzard Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I honestly don't know what to say to this. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to have an opinion. Can someone dumb this down for me?Happy to. Someone wants thier 15 minutes of fame, makes wild/baseless allegations. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.
altersteve Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) I honestly don't know what to say to this. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to have an opinion. Can someone dumb this down for me?The Church doesn't disclose all its finances to the public (in most countries) because it isn't required to, so some people want the FBI to investigate the Church to see if it's committing fraud and other crimes against its membership. Bit stupid, really. Edited April 9, 2012 by altersteve
LDSToronto Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 My experience is about a decade old but every branch, ward district and stake was audited every six months. I am quite sure that the upper echelons received much the same treatment. It is from these twice annual audits that the Conference financial report is based.Who does the auditing?H.
Stargazer Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Just for the fun of it, I registered at the site and made a couple of comments. If you happen to stop by, the comments I made are made by "Cyberherbalist."
cdowis Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) I honestly don't know what to say to this. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to have an opinion. Can someone dumb this down for me?OK.We are professionals and members of the opposition research group for Team Obama. We have done just enough research to manufacture a scandal for Romney and his church. The petition makes everything sound sinister, even though it is normal business for any financial institution. No big deal but it sounds very very scary --"These transactions appeared to involve sub-prime mortgages, high-risk derivatives, put options, call options and futures.""Ensign Peak Advisors Appears to have involved Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and Robert Gay and Goldman Sachs in this wealth transfer." (emphasis mine)Very clever how we bring Romney into this with complete deniability ("appears" is used several times).This is carefully written with a specific agenda. It is a "hit piece" with Romney as the target.Note: On the registration page, it says, "Join the Web's most popular liberal message board!" Edited April 10, 2012 by cdowis
LDSToronto Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Who does the auditing?H.Meh, you guys are taking to long to answer this - so I'll do it. Stake and ward auditing is done by a stake auditor. This person is called and is trained in the church auditing system. The auditor does not need to have any skill or training in auditing or accounting.As for the twice per year requirement, audits only need to happen once per year if I recall. However, the stakes I have been in have always gotten behind for various reasons. SLC sends a notice reminding stakes to catch up. I've been in stakes where wards were not audited for a couple of years.H.
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