34 replies to this topic

[altersteve]

zerinus, on 25 December 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Ummm, never knew anything like that either. You must have been going to Church on a different planet from where I have been going.

Why is everything you say so negative? You always sound like you're in a bad mood.

[katherine the great]

OUmd, on 28 December 2011 - 06:59 AM, said:

Never? Wow. Indeed, I must be attending a Church on a different planet too.

I was kinda thinking the same thing.  I've been in many Stakes and many wards and one of the few constants is that there are always good sisters in Relief Society who constantly lament that they are too flawed and not good enough.  It's a phenomenon that I have particularly taken note of over the years.  It may be that men feel the same way, but that they are just not as verbal or it may be that many LDS women just don't feel that they are "good enough", but it's definitely there.

[zerinus]

altersteve, on 29 December 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:

Why is everything you say so negative? You always sound like you're in a bad mood.

It happens to me every time I come across your face. Don't know why!

Altersteve's comment was inappropriate but yours is even worse.  You have racked up so many warnings you are threatening your status on this board.   You are lucky to only be thrown out of the thread.

[birdgirl]

Peppermint Patty, on 23 December 2011 - 10:10 AM, said:

Great comment.  I agree 100%.  It gives me hope that despite my many, many shortcomings, Christ will make all things whole in the next life.  I know many woman in the Church that beat themselves up every day because they are not perfect.  They need  to hear Russell M. Nelson's counsel.

  

Some women in the church are fine with not being perfect.  After all, Joseph Smith wasn't perfect.  What I've come to understand is that women "beat themselves up" or are concerned because they don't enjoy doing righteous things as much as they think they should.  Julie B. Beck talks about how being a female equals nurturing and nurturing equals/includes cleaning house (Mothers Who Know talk).

Mothers who know are nurturers. This is their special assignment and role under the plan of happiness. ⁵ To nurture means to cultivate, care for, and make grow. Therefore, mothers who know create a climate for spiritual and temporal growth in their homes. Another word for nurturing ishomemaking. Homemaking includes cooking, washing clothes and dishes, and keeping an orderly home. Home is where women have the most power and influence; therefore, Latter-day Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world. Working beside children in homemaking tasks creates opportunities to teach and model qualities children should emulate. Nurturing mothers are knowledgeable, but all the education women attain will avail them nothing if they do not have the skill to make a home that creates a climate for spiritual growth. Growth happens best in a “house of order,” and women should pattern their homes after the Lord’s house (see D&C 109). Nurturing requires organization, patience, love, and work. Helping growth occur through nurturing is truly a powerful and influential role bestowed on women.

I believe that cooking, cleaning and washing clothes are just tasks that must be done but hold no eternal value connected to my reproductive organs.  I could hire out all these tasks and be a much better/happier mother.  I could nurture and teach my kids to be excellent people without scrubbing a single toilet.  If you feel the way I do but are taught to believe you should feel otherwise then the difference could be something to "beat yourself up" about.

My sister (with 2 kids) really wants to work outside the home (she is super extroverted and can't volunteer for enough stuff to compensate for the SAHM funk so she feels guilty for hating being at home and wanting a career).  She doesn't worry over slight imperfections but rather the huge discrepancy between what she should do and what she wants to do.  The problem is that she would be much happier getting a nanny even if it cost every penny of her salary- the improvement in her mental health would be well worth it but she feels that would be unrighteous.   She took comfort in the words of some LDS leaders who said we shouldn't judge women who work and some "I'm a Mormon" adds but then this lesson in the new "Basic Manual for Women" reduced my sister to tears because she doesn't want to groom dogs or babysit or any of the other options on the list or any other job "in the home".  

http://lds.org/manua...skills?lang=eng    

If a woman believes that living a certain way is to obey eternal female principles and should make her feel fulfilled or at least bring a sense of satisfaction and then she doesn't feel at all satisfied she worries that she is defective or doing it wrong.  I think it is similar to the despair a "same sex attracted" person might feel- that their truest self is antithetical to the eternal standard.  That would be depressing.  

Despite reassurance from Elder Nelson and other leaders that everything will work out in the eternities, my mother considers herself a "failure in the Home" due to the apostasy of most of her many children.  She cooked and cleaned, sewed and scrubbed, indoctrinated and nurtured the living daylights out of us.  I think reducing her pain to "beating herself up" over not being "perfect" is an oversimplification but that is probably how she would  articulate it herself in front of other women.

[Libs]

Quote

Despite reassurance from Elder Nelson and other leaders that everything will work out in the eternities, my mother considers herself a "failure in the Home" due to the apostasy of most of her many children.

I have seen this happen to women (both parents, of course, but it seems like the women take it more personally) who were actually very good parents and did everything they thought they were supposed to do.  I remember one woman, in particular, in tears, at a RS meeting, because all of her children had left the church (and she had many...I think five or six).  She was absolutely heartbroken and so depressed.  I'm sure she did blame herself, but she was also confused as to why this would happen.  I'm sure she didn't think she "deserved it".

I thought she was given some pretty wise counsel, by another older woman, who had two of her four children leave the church.  She said, for one thing, it helped her not be so judgmental about other parents whose children had left, because that had been her tendency, when she was younger (to assume it was the parents fault, somehow).  She also said that we have to remember that children are individuals and not extensions of their parents, and they have their own lessons to learn and paths to follow.  But, most of all, she reminded us all that we must continue to love and have hope for our children, no matter their current circumstances or state of mind.  To continue to love and pray for them.

So, as always, there can be some real positives in adversity.

[why me]

katherine the great, on 29 December 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

I was kinda thinking the same thing.  I've been in many Stakes and many wards and one of the few constants is that there are always good sisters in Relief Society who constantly lament that they are too flawed and not good enough.  It's a phenomenon that I have particularly taken note of over the years.  It may be that men feel the same way, but that they are just not as verbal or it may be that many LDS women just don't feel that they are "good enough", but it's definitely there.

This can be a problem. But it is also good to look for sources for the problem. Is it lds culture? Is it the time that we are living in where the great majority of us must be productive and efficient? Is from low self esteem? Maybe you should initiate a discussion when you hear this said by women in relief society.

Edited by why me, 30 December 2011 - 12:44 AM.

[why me]

birdgirl, on 29 December 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

Despite reassurance from Elder Nelson and other leaders that everything will work out in the eternities, my mother considers herself a "failure in the Home" due to the apostasy of most of her many children.  She cooked and cleaned, sewed and scrubbed, indoctrinated and nurtured the living daylights out of us.  I think reducing her pain to "beating herself up" over not being "perfect" is an oversimplification but that is probably how she would  articulate it herself in front of other women.

The problem with your post is with the word 'indoctrinated'. And perhaps her mistake as to why many of her children fell away. If the children felt that an indoctrination was taking place, a reverse outcome will happen. Children will rebel. Most adults can measure their success by their children. If they feel that the children did not succeed, they can blame themselves.

[why me]

Libs, on 29 December 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

I have seen this happen to women (both parents, of course, but it seems like the women take it more personally) who were actually very good parents and did everything they thought they were supposed to do.  I remember one woman, in particular, in tears, at a RS meeting, because all of her children had left the church (and she had many...I think five or six).  She was absolutely heartbroken and so depressed.  I'm sure she did blame herself, but she was also confused as to why this would happen.  I'm sure she didn't think she "deserved it".

In general this is a common occurance with parenting. Mormon parents can equate their parenting skills to church activity of their children. Other parents outside the church can become judgemental of themselves if their children are drinking too much alcohol or taking drugs etc. And the same beating up process occurs with parenting depending on the success of the children for members and nonmembers.

[Senator]

why me, on 30 December 2011 - 12:50 AM, said:

The problem with your post is with the word 'indoctrinated'. And perhaps her mistake as to why many of her children fell away. If the children felt that an indoctrination was taking place, a reverse outcome will happen.

There's no problem with the word.

"to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."


You really feel that indoctrination is non-existant in the church, or that the church doesn't indoctrinate parents to indoctrinate their children?

Edited by Senator, 30 December 2011 - 08:36 AM.

[bluebell]

Senator, on 30 December 2011 - 08:35 AM, said:

There's no problem with the word.

"to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."


You really feel that indoctrination is non-existant in the church, or that the church doesn't indoctrinate parents to indoctrinate their children?

All parents indoctrinate their children.  Every religion (or non-religion in regards to atheism) indoctrinates.  Schools indoctrinate.  Sports teams indoctrinate.  Commercials on t.v. indoctrinate.  We all, in small or big ways, are attempting to indoctrinate each other here on this board.

Indoctrination definitely exists in the church, per the definition you have used, as it should.

If someone uses the term 'indoctrination' to mean 'brainwashing'-as many like to do-then that would be incorrect, but i don't believe that's how birdgirl meant it at all.

Edited by bluebell, 30 December 2011 - 09:05 AM.

[Senator]

bluebell, on 30 December 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

but i don't believe that's how birdgirl meant it at all.

Me neither.

[birdgirl]

bluebell, on 30 December 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

If someone uses the term 'indoctrination' to mean 'brainwashing'-as many like to do-then that would be incorrect, but i don't believe that's how birdgirl meant it at all.

If I understand why me correctly, the implication isn't so much that I view the term indoctrination in a negative way (which I do) but that my mother viewed teaching me LDS doctrine as a task- one performed without proper sincerity and, if so, she deserves the blame she assigns to herself.  My parents wouldn't have called it indoctrination and I always knew they were very sincere and heartfelt about what they taught me.

[bluebell]

birdgirl, on 30 December 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:

If I understand why me correctly, the implication isn't so much that I view the term indoctrination in a negative way (which I do) but that my mother viewed teaching me LDS doctrine as a task- one performed without proper sincerity and, if so, she deserves the blame she assigns to herself.  My parents wouldn't have called it indoctrination and I always knew they were very sincere and heartfelt about what they taught me.

I would be very surprised if Why Me's reaction to your post had to do with his perceived insincerity of your mother, but he'll have to speak for himself here since i certainly can't speak for him.

[DBMormon]

just saw this and too feel more Grace being taught.  I love this change.... log time coming as the Book of Mormon teaches this throughout.  I just started a post on Grace and Mercy that you guys might like

[Peppermint Patty]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

just saw this and too feel more Grace being taught.  I love this change.... log time coming as the Book of Mormon teaches this throughout.  I just started a post on Grace and Mercy that you guys might like

Thanks, Reelmormon.  I will check out your post.