The Shocking IGNORANCE About Mormonism: It’s Worse Than You Think (Ft Luke Hanson)

[Stargazer]

I thought this was a really excellent defense of "Mormonism" in the sense of debunking the occasional rather ridiculous claim that Islam is closer to Christianity than "Mormonism" is. 

 

[Calm]

On 4/28/2025 at 4:25 PM, Stargazer said:

I thought this was a really excellent defense of "Mormonism" in the sense of debunking the occasional rather ridiculous claim that Islam is closer to Christianity than "Mormonism" is. 

 

It is ridiculous to compare us to Islam because we believe God is an exalted human (however that occurred).  Islam would view that as pure blasphemy.  There is a bigger gap between the God of Islam and mankind than there is between man and the God of creedal Christianity as I understand it.  There is no Son of God (who is divine) who descended to redeem mankind or bridge that gao in Islam.  One of the core beliefs of Islam is in the unity and indivisibility, uniqueness of God. Humans cannot become partakers of the Divine Nature.  Do Christians really want to see themselves as close in belief to a faith that denies the divinity of Christ?

Edited May 1, 2025 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is ridiculous to compare us to Islam when we believe God is an exalted human.  Islam would view that as pure blasphemy.  There is a bigger gap between the God of Islam and mankind than there is between man and the God of creedal Christianity as I understand it.  There is no Son of God (who is divine) who descended to redeem mankind in Islam.  One of the core beliefs of Islam is in the unity and indivisibility, uniqueness of God. Humans cannot become partakers of the Divine Nature.

Reminds me of the Baha'i Faith, which emerged from an Islamic context, recognizes Muhammad, Jesus, and other figures like Moses, and Joseph Smith as Manifestations of God that are sent periodically.

Edited April 28, 2025 by Pyreaux

[Zosimus]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

It is ridiculous to compare us to Islam because we believe God is an exalted human (however that occurred).  Islam would view that as pure blasphemy.  There is a bigger gap between the God of Islam and mankind than there is between man and the God of creedal Christianity as I understand it.  There is no Son of God (who is divine) who descended to redeem mankind in Islam.  One of the core beliefs of Islam is in the unity and indivisibility, uniqueness of God. Humans cannot become partakers of the Divine Nature.  Do Christians really want to see themselves as close in belief to a faith that denies the divinity of Christ?

replace the word Islam with Judaism in your comment, and for sure, Christians especially the Mormon variety really do want

[Zosimus]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I thought this was a really excellent defense of "Mormonism" in the sense of debunking the occasional rather ridiculous claim that Islam is closer to Christianity than "Mormonism" is. 

I don't know if its so ridiculous. Its probably true that Islam is closer to the Christianity of Jesus and the 12 apostles in the 1st century AD than our Americanized Christianities of the 21st century

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

I don't know if its so ridiculous. Its probably true that Islam is closer to the Christianity of Jesus and the 12 apostles in the 1st century AD than our Americanized Christianities of the 21st century

Islam denies the gospel of Christ (no Son of God, no Atonement, no resurrection, no forgiveness of sins, no salvation through Christ, etc).  Can you explain how denying the gospel of Christ is closer to the Christianity in the NT?

[teddyaware]

20 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

I don't know if its so ridiculous. Its probably true that Islam is closer to the Christianity of Jesus and the 12 apostles in the 1st century AD than our Americanized Christianities of the 21st century

Do tell? If you’re willing, please list at least 5 of the similarities that you see between Islam and “the Christianity of Jesus and the 12 apostles in the 1st century AD” so that it will be possible to to properly examine the validity of your assertion?

[The Nehor]

Closer in religious practice? Possibly. Closer in theology? That depends on how you weight the value of doctrinal similarity.

[Zosimus]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Islam denies the gospel of Christ (no Son of God, no Atonement, no resurrection, no forgiveness of sins, no salvation through Christ, etc).  Can you explain how denying the gospel of Christ is closer to the Christianity in the NT?

Judaism also denies the gospel of Christ (no Son of God, no Atonement, no resurrection, no forgiveness of sins, no salvation through Christ, etc)

We don't typically go around arguing that Judaism isn't close to the Christianity found in the NT.

Is Islam closer to the Judaism that Jesus and the 12 apostles practiced, or is it closer to 21st century American protestantism?

[Zosimus]

20 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Do tell? If you’re willing, please list at least 5 of the similarities that you see between Islam and “the Christianity of Jesus and the 12 apostles in the 1st century AD” so that it will be possible to to properly examine the validity of your assertion?

 

Better to examine the wide variety of Christian groups that, although Christian, believed things like 

• Jesus was the Messiah, but not divine — just a human prophet anointed by God
• Rejected the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, and Paul
• Emphasized obedience to the Mosaic Law (Torah)
• Jesus was not co-eternal with God, but a created being — a superior creature, not fully divine
• Trinity was polytheism

There is a lot of wiggle room in the Abrahamic tradition. I'm not at all offended if 21st century protestant youtubers want to lump Mormonism into a bucket along with Islam and "heretical" Christian sects. IMO the beliefs and practices of American youtubers are farther from 1st century Christianity than Islam

If Jesus were to return today, my guess is he would feel more at home in a mosque than he would an evangelical megachurch

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, Zosimus said:

I don't know if its so ridiculous. Its probably true that Islam is closer to the Christianity of Jesus and the 12 apostles in the 1st century AD than our Americanized Christianities of the 21st century

Apparently, you didn't watch the video. Sorry I can't summarize the video for you right at the moment.

[teddyaware]

10 hours ago, Zosimus said:

 

Better to examine the wide variety of Christian groups that, although Christian, believed things like 

• Jesus was the Messiah, but not divine — just a human prophet anointed by God
• Rejected the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, and Paul
• Emphasized obedience to the Mosaic Law (Torah)
• Jesus was not co-eternal with God, but a created being — a superior creature, not fully divine
• Trinity was polytheism

There is a lot of wiggle room in the Abrahamic tradition. I'm not at all offended if 21st century protestant youtubers want to lump Mormonism into a bucket along with Islam and "heretical" Christian sects. IMO the beliefs and practices of American youtubers are farther from 1st century Christianity than Islam

If Jesus were to return today, my guess is he would feel more at home in a mosque than he would an evangelical megachurch

It’s obvious to me that the early Christian sects you’re referring to either rejected the apostles and doctrines of the New Testament Church founded by Christ, or they severely misinterpreted the teachings of the New Testament Church founded by Christ. I find it curious that you’re appearing to identify early Judaizing quasi-Christian sects (I.e. those who refused to believe Christ was divine and that the law of Moses had been fulfilled) with “the Christianity of Jesus and the 12 apostles?”  I say this because as a believing Latter-Day Saint it’s incontestable that Christ is indeed divine, and that the Law of Moses had been fulfilled and superseded by the law of the gospel.

Edited April 29, 2025 by teddyaware

[Zosimus]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Apparently, you didn't watch the video. Sorry I can't summarize the video for you right at the moment.

I did watch the video. I disagree with him when he says "the idea that Christianity is closer to Islam than Mormonism betrays a complete misunderstanding of Christianity"

the Christianity of the NT is for certain closer to Islam than Mormonism

 

[Zosimus]

45 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It’s obvious to me that the early Christian sects you’re referring to either rejected the apostles and doctrines of the New Testament Church founded by Christ, or they severely misinterpreted the teachings of the New Testament Church founded by Christ.

The Christianity I am referring to is considered to be the closest form of Christianity in time, practice and doctrine to the Church founded by Christ. Trinitarianism and the creeds came much later. Islam is closer to the early church than are the creedal churches of today.

In Theology and History of Jewish Christianity, Hans-Joachim Schoeps taking up the research of Harnack and Schlatter and completing it with studies by C. Clemen, T. Andrae and H.H. Schaeder comes to the following broadly substantiated conclusion:

“Though it may not be possible to establish exact proof of the connection, the indirect dependence of Muhammad on sectarian Jewish Christianity is beyond any doubt. This leaves us with a paradox of truly world historical dimensions: the fact while Jewish Christianity in the Church came to grief (disappeared) it was preserved in Islam and, with regard to some of its driving impulses at least, it has lasted till our own time.”

Quote

I say this because as a believing Latter-Day Saint it’s incontestable that Christ is indeed divine, and that the Law of Moses had been fulfilled and superseded by the law of the gospel.

Exactly, my point is that not all the early Christian sects believed that the Law of Moses had been fulfilled and that Christ was divine. Judaism and Islam are no different

This is why I say the Christianity of the NT (including the apostles) is for certain closer to Judaism and Islam than your beliefs as a Latter-Day Saint. 

[Stargazer]

16 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

I did watch the video. I disagree with him when he says "the idea that Christianity is closer to Islam than Mormonism betrays a complete misunderstanding of Christianity"

the Christianity of the NT is for certain closer to Islam than Mormonism

"[F]or certain"? Please, I would love to hear your argument for that!

OK, nevermind, I see that you explained yourself already to Ted. Got it. 

Edited April 29, 2025 by Stargazer

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Judaism also denies the gospel of Christ (no Son of God, no Atonement, no resurrection, no forgiveness of sins, no salvation through Christ, etc)

We don't typically go around arguing that Judaism isn't close to the Christianity found in the NT.

Is Islam closer to the Judaism that Jesus and the 12 apostles practiced, or is it closer to 21st century American protestantism?

We don't really argue that it is close to it either though.  And I've never heard anyone argue that Judaism is closer to Christianity than Christianity is.

Christianity in it's basic definition = the Gospel of Christ.  

[The Nehor]

SHOCKING?

YES, TRULY SHOCKING!!!!

NOT CLICK BAIT!!!!

VERY SHOCKING!!!!!!!!!

[Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

SHOCKING?

YES, TRULY SHOCKING!!!!

NOT CLICK BAIT!!!!

VERY SHOCKING!!!!!!!!!

Everything is click bait.

I'm working on a video for my YouTube channel about a pair of villages near me here in England, and the only exciting thing about them is that there is a wooded area near one of them (Clapham Wood) that has some relatively recent stories involving supernatural, UFO, or criminal activity (murder). And of course the title of the video will lead with the "haunting" theme, even though I will hardly cover the woods themselves. Instead of "The Villages of Clapham and Patching," which will attract few if any clicks, the title will be something like "Are Patching and Clapham's Woods Haunted?" Or maybe "Is the World Ending in Patching?" referring to the pub in Patching, called "The World's End".

[Niblo]

As a Muslim, I accept – without reservation – the Beloved is our Creator and Lord; who can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things; who is absolutely perfect; who is actually infinite in every perfection; who is absolutely simple; who is the One (True) God, possessing an infinite power of cognition; who is absolute Veracity; who is absolutely faithful; who is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others; who is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness; who is absolute Benignity; who is absolutely immutable; who is eternal and everywhere present in created space; whose knowledge is infinite; whose Attributes really are identical among themselves and with His Essence; who is omnipotent; who is Lord of the heavens and of the earth; who is infinitely just and infinitely merciful.

I was a Christian for over sixty years, and well educated in that Faith (I had excellent teachers!).

I know of no Muslim – or Christian – scholar who would disagree with what I have written.

There is absolutely no requirement for a Christian (or a Jew) to embrace Islam – to become a Muslim.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you.  If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48). 

And this is what He has to say about Christians and Jews:

 

‘Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation.  Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him.  All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7 -8; my emphases).

Take especial note of these verses. It has been my privilege to know – and to love – Christians, and Jews, who were shining examples of love and good practice.  These verses assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven.  These verses assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Beloved in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward.  This is a solemn promise, and the Beloved does not renege on His promises. 

 There is no disagreement between Islamic scholars that Muslim men are permitted to marry Christian or Jewish women.  In such marriages, the wife retains an absolute right, not only to retain her faith, but to practise it.  My wife, for example, is a Christian.

 Without doubt, Islam is closer to Christianity – and to Judaism – than it is to Mormonism.

 Blessings.

Edited April 30, 2025 by Niblo

[JVW]

13 minutes ago, Niblo said:

As a Muslim, I accept – without reservation – the Beloved is our Creator and Lord; who can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things; who is absolutely perfect; who is actually infinite in every perfection; who is absolutely simple; who is the One (True) God, possessing an infinite power of cognition; who is absolute Veracity; who is absolutely faithful; who is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others; who is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness; who is absolute Benignity; who is absolutely immutable; who is eternal and everywhere present in created space; whose knowledge is infinite; whose Attributes really are identical among themselves and with His Essence; who is omnipotent; who is Lord of the heavens and of the earth; who is infinitely just and infinitely merciful.

By "the Beloved" do you mean Jesus Christ? Or do you mean Allah? Or just God in general? From what I understand Islam does not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God or that He was crucified and resurrected. Which belief stands in stark contrast to LDS and Christianity.

13 minutes ago, Niblo said:

I know of no Muslim – or Christian – scholar who would disagree with what I have written.

I know of no LDS that would disagree with what you have written either.

13 minutes ago, Niblo said:

There is absolutely no requirement for a Christian (or a Jew) to embrace Islam – to become a Muslim.

Does Islam believe that everyone is Islam whether they know it or not?

13 minutes ago, Niblo said:

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you.  If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

If I understand this correctly. Everyone is going to heaven? Or perhaps, more specifically, everyone who followed whatever law and path that was "assigned" to them?

13 minutes ago, Niblo said:

And this is what He has to say about Christians and Jews:

‘Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation.  Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him.  All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7 -8; my emphases).

Those who believe what, exactly? Believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God? Believe in Allah?

13 minutes ago, Niblo said:

Take especial note of these ʾāyāt.  It has been my privilege to know – and to love – Christians, and Jews, who were shining examples of love and good practice.  These ʾāyāt assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven.  These ʾāyāt assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Beloved in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward.  This is a solemn promise, and the Beloved does not renege on His promises.

Who is the Beloved?

13 minutes ago, Niblo said:

There is no disagreement between Islamic scholars that Muslim men are permitted to marry Christian or Jewish women.  In such marriages, the wife retains an absolute right, not only to retain her faith, but to practise it.  My wife, for example, is a Christian.

 Without doubt, Islam is closer to Christianity – and to Judaism – than it is to Mormonism.

 Blessings.

There is one thing that distinguishes Christianity from other world religions. It is the belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, which I understand is not a belief shared by Islam. What are the beliefs that you view as overlapping between Islam and Christianity but don't overlap with LDS?

I didn't know that we had Muslim representation on this board. I'm glad to read your perspective. A few questions: what is the Al-Ma’ida, the Al-Bayyina, the āyāt? Which sect of Islam are you, and why did you pick that sect over the other(s)?

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, Zosimus said:

The Christianity I am referring to is considered to be the closest form of Christianity in time, practice and doctrine to the Church founded by Christ. Trinitarianism and the creeds came much later. Islam is closer to the early church than are the creedal churches of today.

In Theology and History of Jewish Christianity, Hans-Joachim Schoeps taking up the research of Harnack and Schlatter and completing it with studies by C. Clemen, T. Andrae and H.H. Schaeder comes to the following broadly substantiated conclusion:

“Though it may not be possible to establish exact proof of the connection, the indirect dependence of Muhammad on sectarian Jewish Christianity is beyond any doubt. This leaves us with a paradox of truly world historical dimensions: the fact while Jewish Christianity in the Church came to grief (disappeared) it was preserved in Islam and, with regard to some of its driving impulses at least, it has lasted till our own time.”

Exactly, my point is that not all the early Christian sects believed that the Law of Moses had been fulfilled and that Christ was divine. Judaism and Islam are no different

This is why I say the Christianity of the NT (including the apostles) is for certain closer to Judaism and Islam than your beliefs as a Latter-Day Saint. 

The Judaizing apostate Messianic sects who tenaciously held on to the law of Moses (no doubt out of a bullheaded and misplaced sense of loyalty to Jewish identity and tradition) might very well have provided the religious and cultural seedbed out of which Islam arose. But the leaders of the true apostolic New Testament church established by Christ roundly repudiated those truth perverters who asserted Christ wasn’t divine while obstinately clinging to the inferior law of carnal commandments that was yoked upon Israel as a consequence of disobedience.

Edited April 29, 2025 by teddyaware

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

SHOCKING?

YES, TRULY SHOCKING!!!!

NOT CLICK BAIT!!!!

VERY SHOCKING!!!!!!!!!

He is very laidback in the video itself, one of the easier ones to watch for me (sped up a bit) because it’s not overly dramatic, etc.  The title was very out of place imo, and obviously meant to attract attention.

Edited April 29, 2025 by Calm

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I thought this was a really excellent defense of "Mormonism" in the sense of debunking the occasional rather ridiculous claim that Islam is closer to Christianity than "Mormonism" is. 

Well I do not need to watch the video to know that is a ludicrous claim. And honestly, in all my years as a hobby apologist, I never ran into that argument that I can recall.

[Zosimus]

6 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The Judaizing apostate Messianic sects who tenaciously held on to the law of Moses (no doubt out of a bullheaded and misplaced sense of loyalty to Jewish identity and tradition) might very well have provided the religious and cultural seedbed out of which Islam arose. But the leaders of the true apostolic New Testament church established by Christ roundly repudiated those truth perverters who asserted Christ wasn’t divine while obstinately clinging to the inferior law of carnal commandments that was yoked upon Israel as a consequence of disobedience.

Ah ok, so the earliest followers of Christ, the ones who knew him personally, were heretics and it wasn't until the 3rd and 4th centuries that we start to see the formation of the true apostolic New Testament church established by Christ by leaders who lived hundreds of years after Christ.

I'm not going to try and convince you of anything, but if you are interested in a different perspective on the early Church:

• Were the Ebionites Heretics? Or Our Best Witness to the Jesus Movement?
• The surprising beliefs of the first Christians
• Who Were the Ebionites? With Dr. Ali Ataie

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well I do not need to watch the video to know that is a ludicrous claim. And honestly, in all my years as a hobby apologist, I never ran into that argument that I can recall.

The video references a few occurrences of it, out in the "wild."