Scrupulousity and Perfectionism among LDS

[MustardSeed]

Why do you think the author states that the study indicates an outcome that might surprise people? 
 

TBH sometimes I feel gaslit with this topic .

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

True. I thought of that briefly, but nothing came to mind at the time, but it's definitely a big thing for sales "goals".

The one I hated was engaging everyone who walked in the store in conversation and giving them at least one suggestion based on what they were looking for.  Some don’t share that info, so it’s impossible and some really, really don’t want to talk while shopping (like me, I will seek out help if needed, otherwise pretend I am not there, please).

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Why do you think the author states that the study indicates an outcome that might surprise people? 
 

TBH sometimes I feel gaslit with this topic .

Because I think we remember the negatives more and while that can inflate their impact, I am guessing it doesn’t inflate it as much as we expect.  I can’t remember anyone who expressed the belief there was less perfectionism in the Church over the years, I thought perhaps it was equivalent in and out, but wouldn’t have been surprised if actually more in it.

I really need to read those articles.  Hopefully tomorrow I can retain something in my mind beyond 5 secs.

Edited Wednesday at 12:40 AM by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So it is a moral decision? I suspect it is more a condition created by environmental and genetic and psychological and familial and social conditions.

Fair point... And along the lines of what I meant- not that they decided to be that way.

But I do stand by the point that the Church, it's teachings and policies, have less to do with their scrupulosity than they or others opposed to the Church propose.

[ttribe]

I was born/molded by parents to have some perfectionist traits. Through some combination of my own tendencies and the teachings of the Church, my perfectionist drive was dramatically amplified on my mission and carried over for many years after.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, blackstrap said:

Lengthen your stride, quicken your pace.  When this hit the Elder's quorum I remember the general feeling that ,,, " whatever " ,we will inch forward when possible.  The RS ladies, however , took it much more to heart. My spouse said the lessons always made her feel inadequate if not unworthy. Is this usual or am I just being s ******. 

I can tell you my husband certainly felt inadequate with lessons like that.  He even hated conference for a long time because of how inadequate he felt.  There was definitely anxiety tied to it for him. You might have only heard the whatevers, because the inadequates were silent.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

No pain, no gain.

Where did the mentality that having unreachable goals causes us to incredibly stretch ourselves rather than curl up eventually in learned hopelessness come from?  Who was the first person in history who said something asinine like “reach for the stars” rather than “isn’t it lovely to sit out here and be dazzled by the glory that is the night sky”?

Not saying having dreams is a bad things, it’s unrealistic expectations I am concerned about.

It's good to be reminded that being highly determined or motivated isn't always a great thing.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Neither am I. 

For one thing, there was a period of time when I wasn't paying tithing at all. And due to loss of records, I have no way to go back to figure out how much I should have paid. Perfection would require making up the shortfall. Since I can't, it needs be that I rely upon Christ's grace for that.

This makes me think back to all the times when I was much less than worthy, and have no way to make recompense because of the nature of the offenses. And of course, even full recompense does not fix the sin (because I can't turn back time). So I thank God daily for the gift of His Son's sacrifice.

Yes, thank God for His mercy and grace.  I think if we could remember that more, we would struggle with perfectionism less.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Yes, thank God for His mercy and grace.  I think if we could remember that more, we would struggle with perfectionism less.

It’s so sad that my experience has little memory of this message prior to 2015. 

[BlueDreams]

16 hours ago, Senator said:

I guess I need to read the articles, because I'm not understanding the disassociation.  

Take my mission experience for example.  Serving a mission could rightfully be classed as a "higher religious involvement".  Yet it was reeking of TP. So I don't understand.  Are we speaking in generalities, so my mission experience was just an outlier? 

I'm just starting and I'm admittedly skipping around as I have most immediate interest. In the article "understanding perfectionism," It iterates the key for TP is not the striving for high goals. It's fear/shame of what it means if you make a mistake or don't meet the goal. 

I have no clue what your mission was like. It could be that you had a few key people (MP's, ZL's, DL's, certain companions) that would fit into the categories for TP (other oriented perfectionism, would be particularly problematic, IMHO). It could be that your own predispositions and experiences colored how you viewed or experienced these. From what I see, it can be both...but the latter is more potent and increases the likelihood of negative experiences. I've seen this in real time, where the message I hear and the message a client or friend etc hears from the exact same source are completely different. They may pick up on things that seemed small to me because I didn't have the same trigger points as they did.  

2 mission related examples. Serving a mission actually helped reduce some of my unhealthy mindsets and beliefs. The first bit was quite an emotional roller coaster as I had to confront some emotional concerns I'd been ignoring prior. At one point I was wracked with a deep sense of inadequacy. The inadequacy wasn't new, it was something I'd had for years prior. But before I'd found ways to mitigate or ignore it. My mission brought it front and center. Not because of any leader, but because of the very structured context with high goal orientations that do not mix well with shame orientations. No one treated me like I was inadequate on my mission. I'd come to assume as much because of the parts of me that didn't measure up. At some point in some meeting or discussion it dawned on me that this is not how God sees me. I believed strongly that God had given me an outline of who I truly was in my PB. Before than I both believed strongly in it and could feel how much I fell short of it, which fed my inadequacy. But something switch and I then used the same tool to combat my sense of inadequacy and shame. I made a short list based on descriptions in it labeled "how God sees me" and kept it in my scriptures. Whenever the inadequacy would attack I'd pull it out and read a number of those, reminding me this was who I was to God, not my fears and shames. 

My sister is also currently serving a mission. She's a very strong-headed sort. Once she knows what she needs to do, she's very likely to do it and just about nobody could sway her otherwise. She got an MP who I would say used unhealthy means to try and persuade her that cutting her mission a month short to continue her education and not lose her credits was the wrong choice. She took his words, thought about them carefully....and came to the exact same conclusion she'd had before. His actions had little long-term effect on her beyond taking a moment of self-reflection. I know for others having someone like that would have eaten them alive and led them to chronically question their decision if it went against the counsel of a leader. The leader wouldn't have helped...but the negative consequence can only go so far without a person with just the wrong set of struggles to act as a catalyst to them.

So your mission could have had TP in it, you could have had personal contexts that made you more sensitive to TP or been TP yourself, or both could have been at play.

But, this research does suggest that TP is not necessarily a structural reality of the gospel/church at large. This doesn't mean it's not there though...it's just not as ubiquitous as assumed before.

 

WIth luv,

BD   

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:14 PM by BlueDreams

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Why do you think the author states that the study indicates an outcome that might surprise people? 
 

TBH sometimes I feel gaslit with this topic .

I couldn’t find the study. I want to look at the question phrasing for the test.

I admit I am suspicious when BYU does a study and it comes out with the church looking great. I don’t think they would lie but there are way you could (intentionally or not) bias the results.

[BlueDreams]

FTR, I'm planning to definitely read at least 3 of these and may later peruse the others later on. I'm really curious about this as it definitely dovetails with my day job a bunch. (Therapy probably disproportionately has a ton of people with some version of TP). 

I would note for myself my experiences with TP were time limited (teens to middish 20's) and subject specific (I was deeply afraid of having a dysfunctional family). In most other ways I probably am more healthy perfectionistic at most. I tend to set big goals, but I'm usually fine if they don't pan out or if I veer off course from what I initially expected. I use them more as ways to push myself when I want to grow in something. Not litmus tests for how good I am or what my worth is. 

I've often assumed that I'm not a perfectionist because I think toxic variants are what most of us focus on as THE definition for perfectionism. And I don't really fit that mold.  

 

With luv,

BD

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's good to be reminded that being highly determined or motivated isn't always a great thing.

[Kenngo1969]

18 hours ago, bluebell said:

I’ll be forever grateful that my mission president never pushed goals or ideas about exact obedience. He was refreshingly down to earth.  We set goals, but they were about just trying to help us do the work. Most importantly, they were only ever goals for ourselves and not goals for other people. The idea that you can set a goal for how many people you were going to baptize in a month seemed insane to me. And we still have to do it in our ward’s and stakes today. It is the one culture of the church that I cannot stand.

You can’t make goals for other people. At that point they’re just wishes.

Yep.  Elder-cum-President Dallin H. Oaks made that point in a BYU Devotional once:

Quote

 

In my conference talk last October I gave another illustration—the importance of following the Lord’s timing with those we try to interest in hearing the gospel message. Proclaiming the gospel is His work, not ours, and therefore it must be done on His timing, not ours. There are nations in the world today that must hear the gospel before the Lord will come again. We know this, but we cannot force it. We must wait upon the Lord’s timing. He will tell us, and He will open the doors or bring down the walls when the time is right. We should pray for the Lord’s help and directions so that we can be instruments in His hands to proclaim the gospel to nations and persons who are now ready—persons He would have us help today. The Lord loves all of His children, and He desires that all have the fulness of His truth and the abundance of His blessings. He knows when groups or individuals are ready, and He wants us to hear and heed His timetable for sharing His gospel with them. ... [Heading omitted].

The achievement of some important goals in our lives is subject to more than the timing of the Lord. Some personal achievements are also subject to the agency of others. This is particularly evident in two matters of special importance to young people of college age—missionary baptisms and marriage.

 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/timing/

But then, Jimmy Jones said (sang) it first, and, with due respect to then-Elder Oaks, said it better:

 

Edited Wednesday at 02:43 PM by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I couldn’t find the study. I want to look at the question phrasing for the test.

I admit I am suspicious when BYU does a study and it comes out with the church looking great. I don’t think they would lie but there are way you could (intentionally or not) bias the results.

My memory/impression is that Justin Dyer usually works with nonmembers ( professors at other universities) when he does these studies, sometimes even nonbelievers.  If I can’t find the study or info when I manage to read the issue, I will ask him if there is a way to get it as well as who he worked with.  I will also try and remember to ask him if my impression is correct.

I agree about the unintentional biasing of questions.  Definitely will have to remember to ask him that.  My opinion of him based on our talks is he is comfortable with the Church contributing at times negative experiences, that the Church has made mistakes, etc, but has a positive view of it over all, especially of its potential…but I may be projecting my own opinions on him because it appears we agree on many things when we are chatting (which has unfortunately only occurred a few times, but he’s one of the people I feel instantly at home with like I have known him for ages).

Edited Wednesday at 11:28 AM by Calm

[BlueDreams]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I couldn’t find the study. I want to look at the question phrasing for the test.

I admit I am suspicious when BYU does a study and it comes out with the church looking great. I don’t think they would lie but there are way you could (intentionally or not) bias the results.

Personally I don't take the data to immediately mean the church is looking great. Yes, active members are scoring less perfectionistic. But what I also take from this is that members who have some variant of TP are still falling through the cracks. And that those who are still members with TP may be more at risk for taking in unhealthy messages from church or becoming alienated. I'm assuming, like most social research, the link isn't fully causal and more a series of snapshots that expose trends. 

 

 

with luv,

BD

Edited Wednesday at 01:41 PM by BlueDreams

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

But what I also take from this is that members who have some variant of TP are still falling through the cracks. And that those who are still members with TP may be more at risk for taking in unhealthy messages from church or becoming alienated.

What would be the solution?

It would be impossible to stop everyone with TP or scrupulosity tendencies from the taking talks, policies, procedures in an unhealthy manner. In fact, in recent years the Church seems to be bending over backwards to try and reassure people of the acceptability of weakness/mistakes.

Edited Wednesday at 03:41 PM by ZealouslyStriving

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s so sad that my experience has little memory of this message prior to 2015. 

I don't have much of a memory of it one way or another, but I do feel like we are doing such a better job now of focusing on Christ's grace than before and that feeling must be coming from somewhere.  It must mean that I was hearing different messages earlier even if they didn't make any specific impact on my mind.

[Chum]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

12 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s so sad that my experience has little memory of this message prior to 2015. 

I don't have much of a memory of it one way or another,

24 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

In fact, in recent years the Church seems to be bending over backwards to try and reassure people of the acceptability of weakness/mistakes.

I agree with the above; I've perceived some new counseling - that we should take stock of our personal investment in the Church to make sure we're not investing in a counterproductive way.  2015 sounds about right for the start of it.

edit: Regarding messaging in general, the Church can be scrupulously non-specific when it is (I believe) avoiding micro-managing.  The older I get the more wisdom I see in this.

Edited Wednesday at 04:04 PM by Chum

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Why do you think the author states that the study indicates an outcome that might surprise people? 
 

 

Good question.  Maybe it's because I've heard so many stories from people who really struggled with self worth in the church that I assume toxic perfectionism must be behind them when maybe it's not actually that at all?  I'm not sure.   With this topic, so much depends on personality and environment growing up.  Maybe we downplay the effect those have on our perceptions of church teachings (for good and bad) and so give the church more credit in our personal issues (both strengths and weaknesses) than it deserves?

Quote

TBH sometimes I feel gaslit with this topic .

I think as humans we are really bad at embracing or explaining our own personal experiences with something without trying to use those experiences to invalidate the experiences of others that are different.  If it's true for us then it also has to be true for everyone else, kind of thing.  I don't think we do it on purpose, it's probably a way to make our own world more congruous or something. 

So I bet you have been gaslit in the past on this topic.  Maybe even by me at some point, and if so I'm so sorry.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:55 PM by bluebell

[BlueDreams]

8 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What would be the solution?

It would be impossible to stop everyone with TP or scrupulosity tendencies from the taking talks, policies, procedures in an unhealthy manner. In fact, in recent years the Church seems to be bending over backwards to try and reassure people of the acceptability of weakness/mistakes.

There's not a one size fits all solution on that. And there's no way that everyone will be taken care of. 

But I do think talk is nice, but there can be far more examples from others of what it looks like to be imperfect. More space to show and value variation in thought or implementation of gospel principles. More care to correct and work with those who may tend to social perfectionism to help reduce the unintended damage they can render by their insistence on other's perfection. More training on how to ask questions to gage for misunderstanding or miscommunications in meetings or groups.  

I do think we've moved in better directions over the years, but that doesn't mean we've suddenly arrived. 

 

With luv,

BD

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What would be the solution?

It would be impossible to stop everyone with TP or scrupulosity tendencies from the taking talks, policies, procedures in an unhealthy manner. In fact, in recent years the Church seems to be bending over backwards to try and reassure people of the acceptability of weakness/mistakes.

Like @BlueDreams said, I think one way would be to make sure that we gentle correct it when we see it being taught at church.  

When someone goes off the rails in a talk or comment in class about how something has to be to be worthy or acceptable or forgiven, etc. we tend to grit our teeth and ignore it. We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or make the room feel awkward (and those are all important things to consider).  But unfortunately that often means that there is no counter voice to the one that is obviously a little off.  And so our kids and those members who are vulnerable to those messages are just left to stew in them.

If it's a leader, then it's even harder.  And there won't be a way to do it every time.  But we should probably be more focused on "teaching correct doctrine" than social niceties.  Sometimes we have it backwards.

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

When someone goes off the rails in a talk or comment in class about how something has to be to be worthy or acceptable or forgiven, etc. we tend to grit our teeth and ignore it.

Could you expand on this? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Could you expand on this? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

I mean we've all heard someone say something outlandish or just flat out not true in a class or in a talk and assign it to the gospel when it's not.  Most of the time these comments are never corrected because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. 

I remember growing up and hearing my grandparents talk about some guy in sunday school that was always saying weird stuff.  They referred to his comments as "The gospel according to bro. so-and-so".  Everyone was just used to him and so let him talk.  We should probably move away from that way of dealing with odd comments when they come up.  But it's much easier said than done.

[Chum]

As children we learn to tie our self-esteem to external things, like public perception. It's part of our social growth.

I think we later learn how to tie our self-esteem to the expectations of external bodies (IDK a better term. entities?) - in this case the Church.  Our sense of worth is on the line and self-preservation comes into play. In this state, we might be exploitable or be driven to behave over-assertively.  I think this is okay in the process of growth. It's the thing were we expand ourselves and enter a period prone to mistake-making. It think it's natural but signals more growth is needed.