Is Baptism required for a person to go to Spirit Paradise?

[bluebell]

This topic is being discussed in the social forum among someone asking questions about the church's doctrines and some of the posters.  It's clear that the church teaches unequivocally that only people who have been baptized are allowed into paradise and everyone else goes to spirit prison to wait for their work to be done.

Personally, I disagree with the manuals' implications and I'll explain why. 

First, as far as I am aware (and I could definitely be missing something), there is no revelation on the subject, and all of the scriptures that we have that talk about it say nothing about baptism being a requirement, only that righteousness is.  I'm wary of pronouncements of doctrine that aren't rooted in scripture or revelation, but instead on extrapolation.  

Second, we know that exceptions to the baptism requirement in general do exist (children, for example, enter paradise without baptism). 

Third, though we do believe that baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom of God, the kingdom of God and paradise are not the same place. 

Fourth, we are taught that the spirits who go to spirit prison are the ones who are to be taught the gospel and need to repent of their sins.  What of those who have already accepted the gospel and lived a life full of repentance during mortality, but never made a covenant with Christ through baptism?  People like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lehi, Nephi, etc. who we have no record of ever having been baptized (or having baptized anyone else)?  Though baptism would still be necessary, I don't personally believe they spent time in spirit prison after death waiting for their baptism to happen.

Fifth, I do believe that the majority of people who die without baptism will go to spirit prison to be taught the gospel.  My disagreement with the lesson manuals is that it ignores the exceptions we do have and also ignores the messy questions about those who died who had already accepted the gospel, but just were not baptized as part of their beliefs.  

Thoughts? 

(This is meant to be an interesting topic of discussion and not a means to argue about who's doctrinally right and castigate anyone on either side).  

[blackstrap]

Was the thief on the cross beside Christ  baptized ? I think not. Baptism for entry into the Kingdom ,sure. For entry into paradise , no. If the manual says this they need to rethink it. 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Was the thief on the cross beside Christ  baptized ? I think not. Baptism for entry into the Kingdom ,sure. For entry into paradise , no. If the manual says this they need to rethink it. 

I think JS said that the translation of paradise when Christ was talking to the thief was an error and that Christ just meant he would be with Him in the spirit world that day.  Whether or not JS believed that because of a revelation on the topic, or because of our beliefs about baptism being essential for salvation, I don't know.  I don't think we have a record of why he taught it was a mistranslation.

[blackstrap]

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

he taught it was a mistranslation.

I have always thought that paradise = spirit world part that is not spirit prison. If there is another word for that place , I can be educated.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

I have always thought that paradise = spirit world part that is not spirit prison. If there is another word for that place , I can be educated.

I think he meant a mistranslation of the person who used the word paradise in the bible.  I'll see if I can find the quote.

 

[Dario_M]

I also disagree with that. Good people go to paradise anyway i feel like. But... if you wanna be a saint you need to get baptized and receive the holly ghosts. Otherwise you will never be a saint. And there is no other way. 🤷‍♀️

Edited January 21, 2025 by Dario_M

[Pyreaux]

I say, accepting the gospel, the atonement of Jesus Christ, is all you need to get out of Spirit Prison, because you'll not be getting punished for your sins. Then Spirit Paradise is where the righteous wait until judgment, that is where they wait for ordinances, like Baptism and others. Baptism is the way to the Celestial Kingdom.

Spirit Paradise for the righteous and Spirit Prison for the wicked. Both are preparatory stages for either salvation or further judgment. Those in Spirit Prison can receive the gospel and they may at that time accept baptism that is vicariously by proxy. Doctrine and Covenants 138 is the Spirit World Section. 

"And they [the righteous] who were in the spirit prison, and had been in darkness, for they were in darkness, and could not receive the light of the gospel while they were in the flesh... were now taught the truth, and they were baptized for the remission of their sins." (Doctrine and Covenants 138:32–34).

"And thus was the gospel preached to those who were in prison, who had repented of their sins, and in [Spirit Prison], they received the gospel, and were baptized, and they could not be separated." (Doctrine and Covenants 138:57)

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the law and the gospel which was given unto them... But those who have died without a knowledge of the gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God." (Doctrine and Covenants 137:7–10)

The Jewish idea was the that the generic "righteous" went to Paradise, in Hell no one has been cast into fire yet, people are only being punished with "temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners." (Josephus, Hades). Cornelius, through daily prayer and giving to the poor, was pure enough to receive the Holy Ghost without a Baptism. I like to think there is an order to things, but there are often glaring exceptions.

Edited January 21, 2025 by Pyreaux

[teddyaware]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

First, as far as I am aware (and I could definitely be missing something), there is no revelation on the subject, and all of the scriptures that we have that talk about it say nothing about baptism being a requirement, only that righteousness is.  I'm wary of pronouncements of doctrine that aren't rooted in scripture or revelation, but instead on extrapolation.  

If you’re looking for scriptural enlightenment on the subject, Doctrine and Covenant 138 sets forth the following facts. My commentary on the content of each quoted verse will appear in italics after each verse.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened , and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

(The wicked and disobedient in the post mortal spirit world who had rejected the gospel message while in the flesh were not ministered to in person by the Savior)

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

(When understood in the context of the entire Section, this verse clearly indicates that any of the dead who have not been taught and accepted the gospel are in spiritual darkness and in a state of bondage to sin; i.e. a spiritual prison that can only be escaped through the acceptance of Christ and his gospel)

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

(This verse strongly indicates that ALL the dead who have not come unto Christ in faith, repented of their sins and accepted the gospel will remain captives who are bound to sin. By this, it can be concluded that the “spirit prison” is actually a state of bondage to sin; and since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God — including all the so-called ‘good people’ — the only way to escape this spiritual captivity and bondage is through a conscious acceptance of Christ and his gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression , having rejected the prophets.

(Verse 32 makes it clear that all who die without a knowledge of the truth are still sinners who must accept Christ and repent of their sins if they are ever going to be released from spiritual bondage)

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

(Though the vast majority of Latter-day Saints are unaware of this fact, the truth is that the only way for the spirits of the dead to escape the bondage to sin is by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. With the exception of the unaccountable, all the spirits of the dead must, at very least, possess a measure of authentic faith in God and Christ, repent of their sins, receive the ordinance of vicarious baptism that was performed for them by someone in the flesh, and receive the vicarious administered gift of the Holy Ghost before they are forgiven and able to inherit any degree of glory. This is why Doctrine and Covenants 76 informs us that the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be forgiven of their sins and enjoy the companionship of the Holy Spirit)

I expect that most if not all of the participants on this board will reject the truth all that the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom of glory will need to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost before they will be enabled to enter that kingdom and receive a resurrected and glorified telestial body, but section 138 makes it abundantly clear that it’s true. But I’m not worried because they’ll eventually embrace this wonderful further light revealed to us in Joseph F Smith’s great vision of the redemption of the dead. At any rate, the Lord has stated unequivocally that the only way one can receive a remission of sins is through submission to the gospel ordinance of baptism by water. Without submission to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, even the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom would forever remain in spiritual captivity and in bondage to sin. So there’s you answer…

 

Edited January 21, 2025 by teddyaware

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

I say, accepting the gospel, the atonement of Jesus Christ, is all you need to get out of Spirit Prison,

If you consider Alma the Younger's experience where he was released from the gall of bitterness the second he reached out to Jesus for help, I think you have a good point.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

If you’re looking for scriptural enlightenment on the subject, Doctrine and Covenant 138 sets forth the following facts. My commentary on the content of each quoted verse will appear in italics after each verse.

 

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened , and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

(The wicked and disobedient in the post mortal spirit world who had rejected the gospel message while in the flesh were not ministered to in person by the Savior)

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

(When understood in the context of the entire Section, this verse clearly indicates that any of the dead who have not been taught and accepted the gospel are in spiritual darkness and in a state of bondage to sin; i.e. a spiritual prison that can only be escaped through the acceptance of Christ and his gospel)

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

(This verse strongly indicates that ALL the dead who have not come unto Christ in faith, repented of their sins and accepted the gospel will remain captives who are bound to sin. By this, it can be concluded that the “spirit prison” is actually a state of bondage to sin; and since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God — including all the so-called ‘good people’ — the only way to escape this spiritual captivity and bondage is through a conscious acceptance of Christ and his gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression , having rejected the prophets.

(Verse 32 makes it clear that all who die without a knowledge of the truth are still sinners who must accept Christ and repent of their sins if they are ever going to be released from spiritual bondage)

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

(Though the vast majority of Latter-day Saints are unaware of this fact, the truth is that the only way for the spirits of the dead to escape the bondage to sin is by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. With the exception of the unaccountable, all the spirits of the dead must, at very least, possess a measure of authentic faith in God and Christ, repent of their sins, receive the ordinance of vicarious baptism that was performed for them by someone in the flesh, and receive the vicarious administered gift of the Holy Ghost before they are forgiven and able to inherit any degree of glory. This is why Doctrine and Covenants 76 informs us that the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be forgiven of their sins and enjoy the companionship of the Holy Spirit)

I expect that the vast majority of the participants on this board will reject the truth all that the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom of glory with need to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost before they will be enabled to enter that kingdom and receive a resurrected glorified telestial body, but section 138 makes it abundantly clear that it’s true. But I’m not worried because they’ll eventually embrace this wonderful further light revealed to us in Joseph F Smith’s great vision of the redemption of the dead. At any rate, the Lord has stated unequivocally that the only way one can receive a remission of sins is through submission to the gospel ordinance of baptism by water. Without submission to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, even the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom would forever remain in spiritual captivity and in bondage to sin. So there’s you answer…

 

Thanks for the thoughtful answer.  Everything you said (unless I missed something) is pretty basic to the gospel as I understand it and I don't have any issues with it (I can't think that many members would).  

But it didn't really answer my question because I'm specifically wondering about people like the Prophet Nephi, who did accept the gospel and the Atonement in mortality, but might not have ever been baptized while alive because he lived in a time when that was not an aspect of the religious experience of those born into the House of Israel when he was alive.

Did he have to wait in spirit prison for someone on earth to be baptized for him?  And if so, is he still waiting since it seems doubtful anyone has done his work.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

This topic is being discussed in the social forum among someone asking questions about the church's doctrines and some of the posters.  It's clear that the church teaches unequivocally that only people who have been baptized are allowed into paradise and everyone else goes to spirit prison to wait for their work to be done.

Personally, I disagree with the manuals' implications and I'll explain why. 

First, as far as I am aware (and I could definitely be missing something), there is no revelation on the subject, and all of the scriptures that we have that talk about it say nothing about baptism being a requirement, only that righteousness is.  I'm wary of pronouncements of doctrine that aren't rooted in scripture or revelation, but instead on extrapolation.  

Second, we know that exceptions to the baptism requirement in general do exist (children, for example, enter paradise without baptism). 

Third, though we do believe that baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom of God, the kingdom of God and paradise are not the same place. 

Fourth, we are taught that the spirits who go to spirit prison are the ones who are to be taught the gospel and need to repent of their sins.  What of those who have already accepted the gospel and lived a life full of repentance during mortality, but never made a covenant with Christ through baptism?  People like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lehi, Nephi, etc. who we have no record of ever having been baptized (or having baptized anyone else)?  Though baptism would still be necessary, I don't personally believe they spent time in spirit prison after death waiting for their baptism to happen.

Fifth, I do believe that the majority of people who die without baptism will go to spirit prison to be taught the gospel.  My disagreement with the lesson manuals is that it ignores the exceptions we do have and also ignores the messy questions about those who died who had already accepted the gospel, but just were not baptized as part of their beliefs.  

Thoughts? 

(This is meant to be an interesting topic of discussion and not a means to argue about who's doctrinally right and castigate anyone on either side).  

What is the manual reference? Thank you.

ETA what about baptized people who sin more than unbaptized people?

Edited January 21, 2025 by CV75

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What is the manual reference? Thank you.

ETA what about baptized people who sin more than unbaptized people?

It's all over the church's website, in gospel principal manuals and lesson manuals for the youth over the years.  From other conversations, it appears it was even in the missionary lessons not long ago.  

But here is one link where you can find it, under the "topics and questions" page.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/paradise?lang=eng

[OGHoosier]

55 minutes ago, CV75 said:

ETA what about baptized people who sin more than unbaptized people?

There is the whole "baptized and remained faithful" thing. 

Just as there are many mansions and gradations in the telestial kingdom, I suspect spirit prison is characterized most of all by uncertainty at what comes next and otherwise features a variety of conditions.

Edited January 21, 2025 by OGHoosier

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's all over the church's website, in gospel principal manuals and lesson manuals for the youth over the years.  From other conversations, it appears it was even in the missionary lessons not long ago.  

But here is one link where you can find it, under the "topics and questions" page.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/paradise?lang=eng

In this world, unbaptized people can enjoy fellowship with the saints until their day arrives, even though they may have to wait a long time due to circumstances beyond their control. I had to wait 5 years for no reason other than my particular circumstances. I think unbaptized spirits are in prison in one sense, but get a "work release" into paradise in another sense, as they have hope in Christ as they wait and work on various other talents with those in paradise.

I understand the spirit world (both prison and paradise) to be a place of work and development for all, including (and maybe especially) children and other non-accountable persons who need to gain various types of experience prior to their resurrection (godhood is about more than just spiritual knowedge). Their limitations in this life were beyond their control, though in a different way than those mentioned above. There is much everyone needs to do before their resurrection; those who have been baptized and faithful are often the first say so!

I think Prison/Paradise is a state of mind as well as a state of boundary for covenant-based agency. So we may well have the unintiated mingling with the saints at a certain level, and there as here both groups can gain many heavenly blessings from each other consistent with their sphere. Many talents are found in and shared between both covenant and "anticipatory covenant" spheres. 

[Duncan]

I just wonder about Nephi and his baptism, as he talks about it in 2 Nephi 31 but maybe we just don't have a record of it, as the first recorded baptism doesn't exist until Alma 18

 

edit to add. I don't think baptism is required to go to spirit paradise case in point Alvin Smith died and Joseph "marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom[Celestial], seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins." DC 137:6, now I am guessing his temple work was done later so it's a requirement for exaltation in the CK but not to go into Spirit Paradise. So, possibly he was in the CK but has not or had not been exalted yet

Edited January 21, 2025 by Duncan

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I just wonder about Nephi and his baptism, as he talks about it in 2 Nephi 31 but maybe we just don't have a record of it, as the first recorded baptism doesn't exist until Alma 18

Me too.

He talks about Christ's baptism and teaches very strongly about the need for baptism, but he never speaks about baptism with his own people and we have no record that baptisms occurred with in his family after they left jerusalem and children were added.  And after him, is baptism mentioned again before Mosiah 18?  I don't think it is but I'm not positive.

(My question still stands even if Nephi was baptized, as we have other examples, like Moses or Abraham etc.  Nephi was just a handy example to focus on, but the treatment of baptism in the BOM before Alma is really interesting to me)

[Duncan]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Me too.

He talks about Christ's baptism and teaches very strongly about the need for baptism, but he never speaks about baptism with his own people and we have no record that baptisms occurred with in his family after they left jerusalem and children were added.  And after him, is baptism mentioned again before Mosiah 18?  I don't think it is but I'm not positive.

(My question still stands even if Nephi was baptized, as we have other examples, like Moses or Abraham etc.  Nephi was just a handy example to focus on, but the treatment of baptism in the BOM before Alma is really interesting to me)

Nephi talks about it in kind of general terms but never mentions his own, yes, it is Mosiah 18 is the first recording of a baptism, not Alma 18!

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Nephi talks about it in kind of general terms but never mentions his own, yes, it is Mosiah 18 is the first recording of a baptism, not Alma 18!

Mosiah 18 is part of the record of Zeniff and not part the small plates of Nephi which preceded it. So maybe the large plates mentioned their baptisms, but the 116 pages were lost (I know that sounds convenient!). King Benjamin taught baptism some 25 years after the baptisms at the waters of Mormon.

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Nephi talks about it in kind of general terms but never mentions his own, yes, it is Mosiah 18 is the first recording of a baptism, not Alma 18!

It's also interesting because we have no sense that Nephi was writing to his own people.  It's more like he's keeping a journal for someone down the road to read.  So were his teachings about the need for baptism relevant to the future but not to his present?  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I just wonder about Nephi and his baptism, as he talks about it in 2 Nephi 31 but maybe we just don't have a record of it, as the first recorded baptism doesn't exist until Alma 18

 

edit to add. I don't think baptism is required to go to spirit paradise case in point Alvin Smith died and Joseph "marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom[Celestial], seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins." DC 137:6, now I am guessing his temple work was done later so it's a requirement for exaltation in the CK but not to go into Spirit Paradise. So, possibly he was in the CK but has not or had not been exalted yet

Isn’t this a vision of the future though?  Weren’t there people in it that were still alive?  I need to check, but can’t right now.  If it is of the future, it could be after Alvin received proxy baptism.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Mosiah 18 is part of the record of Zeniff and not part the small plates of Nephi which preceded it. So maybe the large plates mentioned their baptisms, but the 116 pages were lost (I know that sounds convenient!). King Benjamin taught baptism some 25 years after the baptisms at the waters of Mormon.

Good point about the timeline!

Can you provide the scripture where King Benjamin teaches about baptism so I don't have to try to find it.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Potter said:

Before we dive into the spirit world, let's take a moment to clarify who gets the 'wicked' badge and who struts around with the 'righteous' title. Based on our delightful exchange in the thread I initiated, it appears you're quite the open-minded soul, including non-Mormons in the righteous category. Kudos to you!

But here's the million-dollar question. When the sorting hat of the spirit world does its thing, do non Mormons really get the righteous stamp, or are they tossed into the wicked pile? If Mormons are the only ones with a VIP pass to Spirit Paradise, then it makes perfect sense that baptism is the golden ticket to Paradise, don’t you think?

So what's the definition of righteous when entering the Spirit World?

Good question.

I can't find any easy definition on the church's website but on the BYU speeches website it says this:

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, righteousness is defined as a moral and ethical uprightness that guides the lives and choices of those who seek to be disciples of Jesus Christ.

[Duncan]

26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's also interesting because we have no sense that Nephi was writing to his own people.  It's more like he's keeping a journal for someone down the road to read.  So were his teachings about the need for baptism relevant to the future but not to his present?  

could be, I think as some people say writing in his mid 50's? looking back but he does say in 2 Nephi 5:33, "And if my people desire to know the more particular part of the history of my people they must search mine other plates." it's pure speculation as to what he wrote their

[Duncan]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Good point about the timeline!

Can you provide the scripture where King Benjamin teaches about baptism so I don't have to try to find it.

there isn't any mention of baptism between 2 Nephi 31 and Mosiah 18

you might find this interesting in regards to baptism

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/the-word-baptize-in-the-book-of-mormon/

Edited January 21, 2025 by Duncan

[longview]

45 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Nephi talks about it in kind of general terms but never mentions his own, yes, it is Mosiah 18 is the first recording of a baptism, not Alma 18 !

Consider too how the "Brazen Sea" (a baptismal font or simply a very large basin used for cleansing) was set upon the backs of 12 brazen oxen at the time of Solomon's temple. The OT does not really shed much light on the ordinance of baptism. The Brazen Sea was situated in front of the temple porch (or off to the side). Was this area called the Court of the Gentiles? Eventually the Brazen Sea appears to have been pushed aside or discounted by later Judean kings. At one point it was even cut into pieces!

When Nephi mentioned having built a temple for his people, he said it was not as "opulent" like Solomon's. Did he include a "Brazen Sea" for his temple?

At the time of John the Baptist, he was very vigorously baptizing his followers. Leaders from Jerusalem came to the Jordan River to question him on what authority he had. Apparently the Pharisees were familiar with the ordinance of baptism but were NOT doing much with baptism (if at all) ? Nicodemus was NOT well versed about baptism.