Is Baptism required for a person to go to Spirit Paradise?

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The church is called the kingdom of God, and the celestial kingdom is also often referred to the kingdom of God, but the church and the celestial kingdom are not the same thing of course (no unclean thing can be in the celestial kingdom, for example) so I guess there are multiple kingdoms of God depending on how someone is using the term.  I don't know if the term "kingdom of God" was used in Abraham's day or not.

I don't know if Israel was baptized in the red sea or not.  They could have been.  I know what 1 Cor. says but being in a cloud and walking between two pillars of water on dry ground are not what we would consider to be baptism.

In Jesus day He speaks of the Kingdom of God in the sermon on the mount, but in that specific address He seems to link righteous actions to who is a part of the kingdom of God and not ordinances.

I think the Lord allows some flexibility in perspective: 3 Nephi 27: 8, “And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.”

I find it interesting that He uses “they” in reference to “church” which suggests that by “church” He means “people” as in “my people,” “covenant people,” or “saints.” Also, “name” suggests “authority” as in “priesthood authority.” This would refer to His kingdom as He mentions it in the rest of Chapter 27 (and 3 Nephi Chapters 13, 28).

So, the churches or kingdoms of God would be any people that are sustained and organized by His authority.

Edited January 23, 2025 by CV75

[bluebell]

Just now, CV75 said:

So, the churches or kingdoms of God would be any people that are sustained and organized by His authority.

That makes sense.

[CV75]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

That makes sense.

Boy, you read fast!  

[Mfbnew]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

So, the churches or kingdoms of God would be any people that are sustained and organized by His authority.

And of course the "correct" answer about who IS "sustained and organized by his authority" is based on one's "FAITH" - or in other words "HOPE for things unseen."

So everyone wants to be one of the "good guys" and NOT one of those other guys who are obviously WRONG because of.... yada yada. (yes I know what that actually means, but I am using it colloquially.. 🙃)

So now it's a great time to get some lunch and forget about unsolvable "mysteries".......   Hey there's that new place about two blocks away- wanna try that one?

Or we could burn some more time by discussing "yada".... 

 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Mfbnew said:

And of course the "correct" answer about who IS "sustained and organized by his authority" is based on one's "FAITH" - or in other words "HOPE for things unseen."

So everyone wants to be one of the "good guys" and NOT one of those other guys who are obviously WRONG because of.... yada yada. (yes I know what that actually means, but I am using it colloquially.. 🙃)

So now it's a great time to get some lunch and forget about unsolvable "mysteries".......   Hey there's that new place about two blocks away- wanna try that one?

Or we could burn some more time by discussing "yada".... 

 

 

 

[manol]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

The church is called the kingdom of God, and the celestial kingdom is also often referred to the kingdom of God, but the church and the celestial kingdom are not the same thing of course (no unclean thing can be in the celestial kingdom, for example) so I guess there are multiple kingdoms of God depending on how someone is using the term.  I don't know if the term "kingdom of God" was used in Abraham's day or not...

In Jesus day He speaks of the Kingdom of God in the sermon on the mount, but in that specific address He seems to link righteous actions to who is a part of the kingdom of God and not ordinances. 

There is one other place where the Kingdom of God is found, assuming "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are effectively synonymous:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" - Jesus Christ

To the best of my knowledge the LDS Church does not really teach its members how to access the Kingdom of Heaven which is already within each of us.  At least not yet; maybe one day that will change.  That within Kingdom of Heaven is my go-to, but I had to seek beyond the LDS paradigm to learn about it.  

Edited January 23, 2025 by manol

[Mfbnew]

2 minutes ago, manol said:

There is one other place where the Kingdom of God is found, assuming "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are effectively synonymous:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." - Jesus Christ

To the best of my knowledge the LDS Church does not really teach its members how to access the Kingdom of Heaven which is already within each of us.  At least not yet;  maybe one day that will change.  That within Kingdom of Heaven is my go-to, but I had to seek beyond the LDS paradigm to learn about it.  

YES YES YES!

Dang right it is within you in at least one way:

1- it is whatever you believe it is FOR YOU because anything beyond that cannot be known while we are still hanging around on this 3rd rock from the sun- ain't that original? 

"Now we see through the Mirror of our minds, but then, face to face"- translation by MFB.    Just get out of your bodies and who knows what it will be like without that silly human brain "mirror" of the reality IT wants to create!

It can't see anything BUT is what is "within us" since we can never get outside to peek around until that body ain't working any more!

So we all end up in our own "G0-to's" !!!

I mean are we using dollars this week or Francs?   Inches or Centimeters?   Scoops of gold or pounds of sugar as coinage?

Is it the Pope or the Prophet who has "authority"?   How about all those prophets of old who wrote their opinions?  From THEIR hearts?   Mohammad included!

I was almost B'ha'i for about a year myself!!

As always, Oprah would tell us to "Believe what the Universe teaches us!"

[manol]

8 minutes ago, Mfbnew said:

I was almost B'ha'i for about a year myself!!

You got me beat. I was almost B'ha'i for only a few months.

8 minutes ago, Mfbnew said:

As always, Oprah would tell us to "Believe what the Universe teaches us!"

Imo she got that one right!

Miyamoto Musashi, best known for his epic swordsmanship, put it this way:  “If you know the way [the Tao] broadly, you will see it in everything.”

Maybe it's just a bad case of confirmation bias, but I keep encountering the same we-don't-really-have-words-for-it thing in many different places.  And apparently you do too, my Picasso-looking friend!

(Yes, it's good to see your face again.)

[Mfbnew]

1 hour ago, manol said:

You got me beat. I was almost B'ha'i for only a few months.

Imo she got that one right!

Miyamoto Musashi, best known for his epic swordsmanship, put it this way:  “If you know the way [the Tao] broadly, you will see it in everything.”

Maybe it's just a bad case of confirmation bias, but I keep encountering the same we-don't-really-have-words-for-it thing in many different places.  And apparently you do too, my Picasso-looking friend!

(Yes, it's good to see your face again.)

Words might give you a rough picture of what one is saying but the word "dog" doesn't create a mess on your lawn.  😜

The word never can carry a "true" "full" representation of the WHOLE experience of the "thing".

IF words could do that,we could never doubt accounts of spiritual experiences-we would be having the full experience from the word itself.

Think of how great it would be if the words "Moroni Book" gave us the full experience of the BOM.

If you have not yet- look up the Greek philosopher Heraclitus.   He is famous for the saying "A man cannot step into the same stream twice"

The point is that the stream is changing second by second- and what is really cool is that he- like 2500 years ago - was talking about the "stream of consciousness".

He was actually a Postmodernist over 2500 years ago!   But no one could really understand what he meant in his world constructed of earth, air fire and water.

Hey a little of this and a little of that and you can describe anything right?

WRONG! 

As William James said, a sizzling steak with onions on a plate does not fully "correspond" to the words "New York Steak" on a menu!

 

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

Words might give you a rough picture of what one is saying but the word "dog" doesn't create a mess on your lawn.  😜

The word never can carry a "true" "full" representation of the WHOLE experience of the "thing".

IF words could do that,we could never doubt accounts of spiritual experiences-we would be having the full experience from the word itself.

Think of how great it would be if the words "Moroni Book" gave us the full experience of the BOM.

If you have not yet- look up the Greek philosopher Heraclitus.   He is famous for the saying "A man cannot step into the same stream twice"

The point is that the stream is changing second by second- and what is really cool is that he- like 2500 years ago - was talking about the "stream of consciousness".

He was actually a Postmodernist over 2500 years ago!   But no one could really understand what he meant in his world constructed of earth, air fire and water.

Hey a little of this and a little of that and you can describe anything right?

WRONG! 

As William James said, a sizzling steak with onions on a plate does not fully "correspond" to the words "New York Steak" on a menu!

 

Thank you for putting this into words  

[Robert F. Smith]

23 hours ago, bluebell said:

The church is called the kingdom of God, ................... there are multiple kingdoms of God depending on how someone is using the term.  I don't know if the term "kingdom of God" was used in Abraham's day or not.........

In Jesus day He speaks of the Kingdom of God in the sermon on the mount, but in that specific address He seems to link righteous actions to who is a part of the kingdom of God and not ordinances.

Ex 19:6 speaks of "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation."  And of course Jesus is the Davidic king of that kingdom.

Quote

I don't know if Israel was baptized in the red sea or not.  They could have been.  I know what 1 Cor. says but being in a cloud and walking between two pillars of water on dry ground are not what we would consider to be baptism................

The baptism of Israel in the Reed (not Red) Sea is symbolic, as are all ordinances.  Must one be baptized into the Kingdom of God?  The Essenes and the Christians certainly required a baptism-initiation.  And Jews require immersion baptism (mikveh) of all converts to this day.

Edited January 24, 2025 by Robert F. Smith

[longview]

On 1/23/2025 at 10:22 AM, bluebell said:

I don't know if Israel was baptized in the red sea or not.  They could have been.  I know what 1 Cor. says but being in a cloud and walking between two pillars of water on dry ground are not what we would consider to be baptism.

Could this be considered a baptism of a whole people, NOT of individuals? The entire House of Israel? Second time that happened was when the Army of Israel led by Joshua miraculously passed thru the river Jordan. The first time, to wash away the stain of 400 years of Egyptian slavery? The second time was 40 years later. After Israel had wandered in the desert enduring grievous repentance.

One interesting baptism was by Alma the Elder and a proselyte. Both submerged themselves completely under water after saying a single prayer.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, longview said:

Could this be considered a baptism of a whole people, NOT of individuals?

I find it interesting that a Saint would interpret this as an actual baptism, an ordinance, given how we are so particular these days in seeing all of our body gets immersed in water and not just below ground level or other symbolic, but not immersive burials.

The dismissiveness I have seen of sprinkling as an apostate baptismal practice seems uncalled for if we are this flexible in our understanding of baptism.

How does one get washed by water when it doesn’t actually touch one as is depicted in the reed sea and Jordan?

Edited January 24, 2025 by Calm

[longview]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I find it interesting that a Saint would interpret this as an actual baptism,

Did I say it was an actual baptism? No, you jumped the shark.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

an ordinance, given how we are so particular these days in seeing all of our body gets immersed in water and not just below ground level or other symbolic, but not immersive burials.

Which is why I said it was not a baptism of "individuals."

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The dismissiveness I have seen of sprinkling as an apostate baptismal practice seems uncalled for if we are this flexible in our understanding of baptism.

I was focused on the grand scale of symbolism. I am sure you can appreciate having multiple levels of perspectives.

For example, the parable of the Good Samaritan also have been said by some to have an additional layer of meaning. From Google AI:

"In the parable of the Good Samaritan, the "certain man" represents humanity fallen and wounded by sin, while the Samaritan symbolizes Jesus Christ, who shows compassion and actively helps those in need, demonstrating that love and care should extend to everyone regardless of social or religious differences, even those considered enemies; the journey from Jerusalem to Jericho represents the descent into sin, and the inn represents the Church where healing and restoration occur; the oil and wine used to dress the wounds represent the healing power of Christ's sacrifice; ultimately, the parable emphasizes the importance of actively "loving your neighbor as yourself" by showing mercy and compassion to those in need, even strangers."

I have seen commentary in LDS sources that support this. Making it a representation of the Plan of Redemption.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

How does one get washed by water when it doesn’t actually touch one as is depicted in the reed sea and Jordan?

Even Apostle Paul pointed to the symbolism in 1 Cor 10:1 -  Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

The footnotes reference baptism in a symbolic manner.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Did I say it was an actual baptism? No, you jumped the shark.

Not really since jumping the shark is not the same as jumping to conclusions.  Nor have I exhausted my creativity and am now using stupid ideas to substitute for original ideas.  I simply misunderstood you and made a faulty conclusion.  

Your discussion seems consistent to me if you see such as drawing our thoughts to baptism, not actual baptism.

Maybe Robert could clarify if his position is the same as I am unsure of his meaning.

Edited January 24, 2025 by Calm

[Mfbnew]

On 1/24/2025 at 6:24 AM, CV75 said:

Thank you for putting this into words  

Uh...More like a few paragraphs. 

I mean how much can you put into a PAIR of graphs anyway.

Pictures are mo' bettah!   Gonna do a thread I think about art and the idea of "representation".

[Mfbnew]

On 1/23/2025 at 4:11 PM, manol said:

You got me beat. I was almost B'ha'i for only a few months.

Imo she got that one right!

Miyamoto Musashi, best known for his epic swordsmanship, put it this way:  “If you know the way [the Tao] broadly, you will see it in everything.”

Maybe it's just a bad case of confirmation bias, but I keep encountering the same we-don't-really-have-words-for-it thing in many different places.  And apparently you do too, my Picasso-looking friend!

(Yes, it's good to see your face again.)

Speaking now in LDS approved language , - to me, God's Intelligence fills the universe- and that is what we call "The Light of Christ" and/or "The Holy Ghost".

EVERYONE receives it - but everyone has their own language to describe it- "my gut" OR The Tao, The Universe, "My Conscience " etc.etc.

The Picasso self-portrait shows each of us what imo we "should' be- and that means a self-created being co- created between God and our "selves" insofar as there is such thing as a "self"  😃 independent of what we tack together from the cultural ideas we find appealing.